Hi Norm, you are right. With warped tiles you cannot lay a floor 100% lippage free like shown in the pictures. However you can easily avoid these lippages by installing the tiles only in a so called "stuck" pattern with cross joints. The question is whether you like this stuck-pattern. For more information please read also this thread: ► https://www.houzz.com/discussions/tile-floor-unevenness-dsvw-vd~334592

The lippages which we can see in the above pictures are definitely the fault of the tile-setter !!! The sub-floor seems very uneven. You can clearly see the big gaps in the right picture at the far corner underneath the baseboard. You can also clearly see that one tile stays throughout higher then the nearby tiles. So it is definetly not a problem of warpage.

► Picture 1) The floor was more than 1/2" out of level. Luckily the highest point of the room was at the door. We needed 8 bags of ARDEX liquid backer board self-levelling compound and 2 hours to fix the floor.
► Picture 2 and 3) You see how warped the tiles were which we have installed on this floor.
► Picture 4) The result of proper preparation work and proper tile setting is an lippage free and leveled floor. Neither the toilet nor the vanity-cabinetts will rock.

Cheers Bertram
.

Is that Daltile
Kimona Silk 12" x 24" Field Tile in White Orchid?

@ Aja - Did you ask me? If yes, the answer is No. It's a 12" x 24" Travertine imitation. However if you'd like to know the exact name of the tiles and where he bought it, I can ask my customer.

I learned something about tiles when I had my backsplash recently installed. I chose 2" x 10" glass tiles laid in a brick pattern. When the installer came he explained to me that the tiles would be higher in the center than on the ends. If I decided to go with the brick pattern, he wanted me to be aware that the lower ends would be butting up against the higher centers on the previous row, so it would not be a flat surface. Since I don't like the stacked look it was not an issue for me, and quite frankly it is not noticeable at all. However, I can see where this would be an issue on a floor. Too bad you weren't forwarned about this by the builder or installer. Were these tiles chosen independently by you, or did the builder have samples for you to choose from? If the builder supplied the tiles then I think he has a responsiblity to make sure the choices he offers will work.

Contact dal tile. Inform them of this error and what your installer is telling you. Communicate as much in email so you have proof of conversations. Even if you talk on the phone send a email "per our conversation today you are doing....etc. CYA if you end up in court you be 5 steps ahead.

I recommend having the builder supply all materials for this reason. You really aren't saving any money buying them yourself as a builder gets a discount on materials and even with a mark up it ends up just about the same cost, The builder also knows the good, the bad, and the ugly of many manufacturer's products based on the simple premise of trial and error.

There are many good points posted here, but when it all is boiled down .... the fault lies with the installer, period. Starting with lack of communication, quite possible pre-installation preparation and most certainly installation ...... that's the politically correct description. The plain blunt truth is this is crap and the mere fact that the builder's standing up for the sub is more indicative of his understanding of quality and knowledge........your problems and sub-standard workmanship is growing and this is just the aesthetics elements. What's hidden, that you're not seeing?

Who was managing this project? Who was doing inspections for quality for you? It would be nice if you explained just what your arrangement was with the builder and the Realtor. Was this a design build by the contractor? Was this a builder speculative that you bought? Was this your design and you acted as the GC hiring the builder to oversee the construction and the subs you hired or did you hire the Builder as the GC and he hired the subs? What role did the Realtor play here? Was this builder a recommendation from the Realtor?

There are just too many unanswered questions to give you good advice other than off the hip. More information is needed........you've posted many threads on problems with your new home and quite honestly, it's hard to imagine a builder so inept that is able to stay in business..........I suspect there is more to this story than you are telling us.

Thomas, regarding inept builders: my parents had a home built in a beautiful, new neighborhood, using the same guy who built the other lovely homes. Their house looked beautiful, too... But by the time things started falling apart, the builder had bankrupted. He was cheating my parents by passing off subpar products and services, in order to stay afloat. Unlike the builder's other homes, which were completed before his troubles began, this turned into a money pit. The wiring and plumbing are the worst I have ever encountered, the hardwood floors were ruined within 3 years, and when the decorative facing on all the cabinets began to swell with moisture and crack out from under the paint, we realized they were made of some type of pressed cardboard. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I inferred that you are suspicious of the poster's claims. However, there are many inept and/or dishonest builders out there.

Just to be clear, there are inept and dishonest people in all trades and professions. It's called society.

aClark, so sorry to see that. In our bathroom remodel, we are using the same tiles as yours -- DalTile Kimona Silk (Rice Paper, P321), but bigger, 24x24 -- I attach 3 photos from today (no grout yet; that comes later this week :) -- Please keep us updated with your progress, and good luck --

Ed-thank you for the pictures! Will keep Houzz updated! Meeting with tile guy first week of April.

aClark, here are the same tiles from yesterday March 27, 2013, with fresh grout.

aClark, it's almost tax day. How did the meeting go ? :)

everybody has told you that the installer is wrong well heres another he is you can lay tile down and have that not happen sorry but they have to replace it a good installer knows how to lay it right.

Ed, what are you using for the space between the bullnose tile on the curb?

Hi RFF, are you referring to Clark's tiles or mine? Could you be more specific? Thanks.
Norm, are you referring to the ~1/2" of gap (white-ish) on the top of the dam? That's for the glass shower walls and glass shower door, to be installed yet.

hi Ed i thought this post was about clark.

RFF, yes, but you posted almost immediately after my post yesterday and said "everybody has told you that the installer is wrong well heres another". I was not sure who was "you" in your post, and I thought you meant "Here is another wrong installer" for my tiles. So I just asked you to clarify. Now I see you meant "Here is another person (RFF) to tell you (Clark) that Clark's installer was wrong". Clark happened to pick the same tiles as ours and we just had ours installed, so it was good to share with him the photos. You also share many of your own experiences, sometimes with photos of your installations (doors, for example) to help others.
Also, Norm asked me a question about the bullnose. Thanks anyway.

Hey Ed sorry I know I need to be more direct I was typing on my phone and it's hard to always get it out right your floors look great !

RFF, thanks! Don't text and drive! :)

Ed, it just seems like you will be depending on caulk to waterproof the curb.

Norm, thanks! I'll ask -- I have no idea about any of this stuff (as you can tell from all my questions in other threads! ) But, thank you! :) Oh, so what other methods are available to waterproof other than caulk ? Here's a photo of the waterproofing underneath the curb (I don't know if it's too blurry to show the details) --

It's a bit after the fact now, but the curb should have been waterproofed with either liquid waterproofing membrane or sheet membrane so that the tile is merely decorative. There should be no cement backer board on top of the curb because there is not way to attach it without putting screws through the shower pan liner, The curb should pitch into the shower also, hard to tell from the photo if it is or not, just thought I would mention it.

Also the vapor retarder is sitting on the curb and will become a sponge.

I'm coming in a little late, but to check cupping on the tile you can get a quality level which are often machined straight to .0001 of an inch. Get a short one like 14" for 12" tile and lay it across the tile. If it is cupped you will see a gap in the middle. If the straight edge rocks then the tile is bowed. A good installer should be able to minimize the difference even if the tiles are cupped. The manufacturer would also provide this info on the specs on the packaging.

thomas, could you post a photo or link to such a "quality level" ? Thanks.

Knowing
the
problem
existed,
he
closed
on
the
house.

Here is a picture of the level I have. The label on the level will have the tolerance is was milled to. My memory was a little off, it is .0005 of an inch instead of .0001 of an inch. That is across the entire length of the 4 foot level. You can see the machine marks on a level that has been milled to a certain specification. Shorter less expensive levels aren't milled, but are still a pretty straight edge, much straighter than any 2 x 4. The 3rd and 4th photos are the level laying on some tile at my house done by the previous owners. You can see they are fairly straight for a most of the 4 feet, but the other end (the 4th photo) shows that they were not level. That is nearly a quarter inch. When they laid the tile they slapped them down and used something to keep them straight, relative to the next tile, but they did not check them for level so severe are uneven. It looks like your installer didn't even check them to make sure they were even with the next tile. Mine are 13 inch tiles, and they all have a slight dome to them in the center. Even with that, they should be even with the adjacent tiles.

I don't have a shorter machined level, but this one shows the slight dome on my tile. You can see that there is no way they can claim the dome on the tiles are the cause of the uneven installation.

thomas, thank you.

Actually Thomas, that's a pretty significant cupping in a 13" tile. It's hard to tell from your picture but they appear maybe to be a rectangle instead of square? They definitely are laid in a running bond pattern which is generally what causes most of the visual issues (along with herringbone patterns) because the highest point of the tile (the center) is being laid directly next to the shortest points (the four corners). The cupping comes from the manufacturing process and, our direct experience so far, seems to be an issue with tile at all price ranges. The installer can only do so much to mitigate the cupping during installation. The larger the tile size, the more prevalent the issue. The manufacturers and tile distributors are not doing a good job of informing buyers of the issues. We just did a job - called both the manufacturer and asked the distributor if there were any cupping issues with the selected tile. Both said no - but there was an issue and with a herringbone pattern it was difficult at best to install.

As far as level vs even, in the remodel of an existing house it is virtually impossible to get back to level (this applies to other things as well, not just floors). All houses settle and sink as they age. If you attempt to get to level, you could find yourself with huge issues as you move farther out in a space. The goal is to adjust to level if possible, but primarily to get to a state of "evenness or flatness". Then you don't affect how one space intersects with other spaces in the home that are not in the process of remodel. You don't want a 1" - 2" transition in height between a new floor and another floor that is not being changed just because you wanted to stay level with the wall on the other side of a room.

Bad job, bad contractor pushing for this to be accepted. Bad tile installer. Shame shame shame!

Going to small claims court Friday!

What a shame. So sorry to hear you are going through this after nine months. Good luck with your claim. You are definitely in the right. I hope we are able to learn the outcome. I think you can help a lot of homeowners.

small claims court

take your houzz comments from pros with you!

Good luck!

Any update on how small claims court went?

That is really a crappy tile job. If they needed to to level the floor before placing tile then they should have known that. I'm a do it yourself tiler and could do a better job. There's one contractor on here named Martin Van Der Walt. The same type of sloppy work ethics and he also owes over $500 from an unpaid bill for plumbing work that my company did as a subcontractor. Buyer beware..

Hi everyone. Well my tile saga has finally come to an end...ugh.

The judge in small claims court settled in our favor. We sued for $6,000 (OK maximum for small claims) She only granted us $4,000. The good news is he has already paid us in full. I was hoping we were hoping we were not going to have to garnish his wages. The bad news-$4,000 isn't going to cover all the expenses in order to fix this giant mess!

So...here's my question/questions
-do we rip everything out?
-do we tile on top?
-what type of flooring?
-the back splash has to be removed, what type backsplash?

I need to start another post and post some more pictures. Would love all of your help with this situation!

Do you know how to eat an elephant?
-one bite at a time! Ha!

That's really good that you were recognized as needing justice. It really is theft when you stand back and look. Your story inspires me to look into legal options concerning the general contractor, Martin Van Der Walt from North Vancouver BC, Canada. It likely will be chargeable as fraud. If not that then court order to pay plus court costs and interest
Thank you

Our new beautifully installed floor is almost complete!! I can't wait to show you all the after pics!

You should make the name of your builder and his crew public .....

This is the exact position we are in now with our new build. The resolve is going to be a complete demo and we have found our own installer who used to work for a nationally known company that does tile work for McDonald's across the nation. Anything can look better than what we have now. Absolutely no corner is level anyWHERE

This thread is over 2 years old. It's a little late to be trying to resolve the issue now.

BTW, Houzz has a key word generator that pulls up old, dead threads based on what you're reading. They're displayed on the right hand side of the page. If you click on those, check the dates as most are long dead and buried with the OP long gone as well.

Hi everybody, I see the thread is old but some of you have commented this year so I thought I would give it a try. I stumbled on the thread by searching "house slab continues to sink". My slab is 15 years old, and it has taken me this long just to get as far as I have because I do everything myself. The slab was laid by someone I truly believe is a master with all "mud pies", as he calls them. However, over this last year or so, I noticed one internal non-load-bearing wall had lifted off the floor by about 6mm. I am now up to working on that area, and have (I think) determined that the slab has sunk in that spot. I have lost contact with the concreter over the years. At this stage I have not seen any evidence of other spots. This is fairly middle of the slab. My questions are, is this going to worsen over time and can I tile that area without expecting too many problems with cracking tiles or are there things I should be doing first? Thanks.

@gayle dent...if you start your own dilemma thread you'll get better assistance than on this old thread.

I have some lippage issues with 18 inch porcelin rectified tile in brand new home. I was told " it's within industry standards" How much lippage is allowed? And how do u do the credit card test?

It would be better if you started your own thread so everyone doesn't read through all this stuff and never answer your specific question. Old threads need to die and go away - but for some reason they keep getting resurrected.

If you laid an 18x18 tile in a running bond pattern, then you probably did not adhere to manufacturer's specifications for the product and lippage issues would not be covered. If you laid it in a straight pattern, then you may have a case. I haven't heard of a credit card test nor have I heard of an industry standard for lippage. I would be interested to hear from a tile professional on this.

3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch , Gallant response from you - and who pays for a rip out, prep and re install not to mention the purchasing of new tiles? I realise this is an old thread but I am looking for advice as well. I've spent $10,420.00 for ripout, tile and install from Ideal Tile. I can sue for maximum $5000 in small claims court. Granted I get the $5000, I will have to spent at least another $5,400 for a redo.