Any updates? I'd love to know if you have made any progress.

Hi Mimou,

No progress per se, but we haven't actually had the chance to meet. There has been a delay in the meeting by a few days for an understandable reason. I spoke to the 'second in command' today over the telephone and we hope to have the three of us meet in my kitchen before week's end.

I will have more to say after that.

Still hoping for the best

Best wishes for a resolution that works for you. We had a large custom cabinet that was extremely tight. DH told them he wasn't happy; they re-made the largest cabinet in our tiny kitchen. Of course, no charges/fees on our end. Please keep us updated.

It sounds like you are on the right track; just a reminder (for you or anyone else who has to deal with a similar situation) to keep your eye on the fact that you did not get what you ordered.

Don't allow them to distract you with red herrings ( you didn't object early enough, you agreed to the first cabinet, you had a chance to see the second set of drawings, you let the installer install them that way, your garage is ugly so we aren't responsible for the quality of our work, you are a bad cook so what difference does it make -- okay, being silly those last two but I have heard that kind of silliness used to distract from the real issue and deflect blame. Here's an example: "you did accept the first cabinet therefore the original drawings are null and void"). Unfortunately a lot of people are very adept at tossing red herrings in any discussion -- I sincerely hope that your business owner isn't one of them!

Update: I finally had my first (of what I suspect will be many) meetings. Unfortunately I was not able to meet with the owner of the company as planned as he has fallen quite ill (true story). I had the opportunity to meet with the second in command. Win for me: He acknowledged that the drawings were inappropriate. Lose for me: He indicated that he felt it was important that both parties took some responsibility for the problems. He repeatedly tried to get me to accept some responsibility, which I did not.

He recognized the problems around the window, and discussed an appropriate solution may be to move the gable 'x' inches to the left to allow breathing room. I am to determine how many inches I want. To fill the space on the base cabinet the same amount with a filler. The cabinet to the right of the window will be cut down on site to allow for symmetry by 'x' number of inches. I did not say yes or no to this solution, just listened. While I don't mind a 1.5 inch filler on the base (it will then be symmetrical small end piece at the end of the run), I take a bit of issue cutting down a cabinet on site, which we have previously paid to have as dovetail construction.

Question....am I right to interpret that this cabinet will then be glued together after the haircut?

The cooktop/cooktop cabinet sizing issue is under investigation. Its a 36 inch cooktop and 'fits' into a 36 inch cabinet. Yes it 'fits'. But the specs call for 2 inches surrounding the entire cooktop. As our cabinet is a bump out,the front of the cooktop does not have 2 inches to the right and left of it. These small sections sit exactly on the edge of the 36 inch cabinet.

The solution offered to the pantry that is too close to the wall: We, as owners should remove the trim. On a side note, it DOES say on the drawings that there is no trim there. This is not something I caught prior to signing off on the drawings. I discussed that this was an error on the drawings and these details were not reviewed at the time of drawing review. His response was that the designer did not come up with this detail out of thin air (which she did) and that there must have been communication to lead her to that detail (in my opinion there was not). Nevertheless, I understand that if I stand my ground that I want exact kitchen that I signed on, then I may have to compromise on this detail. In truth it will solve many of the problems.

You are wondering what he said to the fact that there were two sets of drawings? Why did this happen? First, he didn't want to talk about the drawings, he preferred to focus on solutions to make me happy. In addition he said that they often make small adjustments after the drawings are signed for the purposes of symmetry etc.

I did bring up that my concern was that I did not receive the kitchen that was stipulated in the contract (and I outlined the first line of the contract that stated his company agreed to furnish and install the kitchen specifically signed and dated). He responded that again he preferred not to go into detail of the contract, but he just wanted to come to a resolution that would make me happy.

In the moment, I was ok with the conversation. After the fact, it seems clear to me that he is trying to skirt some main issues that hold his company accountable.

Now we wait. I will wait until I hear exactly what solutions he proposes at our next meeting. This will mean his company has has two opportunities to take responsibility and make it right. If he doesn't take responsibility and I am not satisfied with the proposed solution then discussion will sit squarely on the signed drawings and the contract and nothing less will be accepted. Adversarial is not a way that I wanted to go, but the second in command did a pretty good job of red herrings.

Nice and willing to compromise will be over. Terms such as 'breach of contract' will start to be in the conversation.

Oh my...I cannot even continue my sentence....

I seriously could not read any more after the paragraph that started,

"Question"

I think you were questioning the cutting down of the upper cab on site? I started having a panic attack at that point.

I will try any read more later. But, my heart started beating so fast just over that, so I had to stop due to my own issues!

Let me just praise you for not getting arrested for your reaction!

Ooh! I was hoping for 100% satisfaction. How long until he gets back to you with real solutions?

This must be so stressful for you, so disappointing. I hope you get the resolution you are looking for, whatever that is.

To that end....There are so many issues to be dealt with, have you consulted an outside architect/engineer/designer-that-can-add-and-measure to determine all the needed changes, and better solutions to your problems? You are entrusting the same idiots that got you into this mess, to get you out of it. Rely on their labor, make them pay for the fixes needed, sure. I would look for intellectual input from a different brain trust.

Good luck!!

p.s. I worry about your cooktop....you can't cook with no surround, you'll destroy your appliance, whose warranty will do you no good if it isn't installed correctly.

dum: At least you're into the next phase of this now, and have better perspective on where the company stands with this (and what their approach is). Based on what we went through (and it's not over), I commend you for having the calm and presence of mind not to agree to any compromises right away -- take time to think about it all over and again, and make sure the solutions sit well with you.

Is it the appliance cabinet that they're talking about doing 'onsite mods' to? If so, something very similar happened to us (the one issue that completely halted Day 1 of installation). We purchased our speed oven and wall oven in late March 2015, so had all the specs and diagrams since then; emailed them to the KD as requested in May. (In July, KD lost the email; we were out of town and didn't have the files no hand but could google the specs and get them to her; we were told "don't worry about it.") Appliance cabinet arrived with the wrong cutouts for the oven units. And it wasn't just a matter of skootching the middle cabinet down. The installer said portions of the frame itself would need to be cut then re-structured/attached within the wall space. No way were we going to settle for a chopped up and rebuilt cabinet when we paid for an intact version. Stand your ground and insist that a new one with the proper measurements be reordered. We were told: onsite mods like this happen all the time; the fix will be just as structurally sound as if it was installed in one piece, etc., etc. Bottom line: an incorrectly sized item arrived due to KD error, and it was not what we paid for.

We approached every step of the process in friendly, professional/detailed fashion. When the many issues were brought up and the owner stopped by the house, the first thing he said was, "So, what's going on? I don't see any problems here." And when I pointed out that many of the drawer fronts were narrower width-wise than the others, his comment: "Seriously? Your eyes can see that, huh?"

Two sets of drawings: at this point anyway, let it go that you don't have an answer to 'why'. Pressing too hard (for now) will only make them defensive, and you'll need to work with them for a while yet, it sounds like. The important thing is, indeed, that they've acknowledged what the correct set of drawings is.

Details of the contract: OK, that one just burns me (again, too close to home). What is the point of a contract if not to specify details that all parties must agree to? I'm sure it wouldn't sit well with them if, say, you decided to shave 10% off your initial downpayment, saying, "Oh, let's not dwell on the details of the contract. Don't worry, you'll get all your money at the end -- trust me." ;)

Thus far, that company is really pathetic. It would be hard to trust anything they do or suggest.

"He responded that again he preferred not to go into detail of the contract,..."

Yeah, I bet he doesn't.

Remind him of that when he whips out a contract clause in his favor - no contracts allowed.

My answer to him is, "We WILL discuss the contract. It is the legal binding agreement that was signed by both parties. I will not agree to any stipulations outside of what is on the contract because THAT is exactly the core of my points. Any discussion you agree to, can nullify the contract itself."

Can't have a discussion about the contract and not talk about the contract. Either he sits down and allows you to detail the LEGAL aspects that are wrong, or you get LEGAL experts to do it, because the moment you agree to anything outside of your legal grounds, you have a whole new mess.

dum7117:

Contracts can be interpreted. At this point, it is best for all involved to work on realistic customer satisfaction solutions. Dig in your heels tough guy crap is counterproductive, unless you're a lawyer collecting more fees than what the project is worth.

You want to get your details / language correct. I doubt you have "dovetail" cabinets. Drawers are dovetail.

Cabinet boxes : if framed you may have upgraded to dowel or mortise and tenon. Don't allow either of those to be cut down. If you have pocket hole frame, they would be OK to cut down (but hardly worth it to the dealer IMO)

If you have frameless then they can effectively be cut down. Insist that they be redowelled AND that the back be kept wide enough to fit into the Dado at the back of both sides. Not simple but doable.

Given how much is in the air at the moment they would be just as well off simply ordering a cabinet now.

With someone good, rebuilding a cabinet box to be smaller on site is no big deal. They can use the same pocket screw construction that the factory did. I would want the door and face frame to be ordered separately though. Which doesn't save much money or time in the end for the shop. In the end, it's saving $2 out of a $10, expense. Then the installer charges $3, so it's actually more expensive, unless the installer is in house and on salary.

Math doesn't lie. You cannot fit 102" of cabinets in a 99" space. IF the overall dimensions of the space are correct, with the correct distances between wall ends and window trim, then the detective work to find out what cabinet was ordered incorrectly becomes easy.

What I suspect has occurred here though is that the distance from the wall end to the window trim was screwed up, and is smaller on one side, and larger on the other, than in the original design. That makes the original design physically undoable, and thus the scrambling to fix it on site.

What needs to happen here is that the entire room needs to be remeasured. You need to confirm that the overall architecture of the room as used for the design is accurate. If you come up with 73" from the corner to the window, and the design shows 70", you know the source of the problem.

Unfortunately, that's a deeper pile of doo than a cabinet mismeasure. That means the whole design is off and needs to be redone, and that the placement of the main components may not be physically possible in the space.

Your days with the tape measure are not done yet.

No-one is saying not compromise, I think... but dig in your heals on quality and what is right, and give on the things you can live with, but make sure they adhere to the contract if you cannot get what will make you happy.

One other thing is to change how you look at the entire thing.What I always try to do is tell them to make me think of something else when I look at something they refuse to "fix". So when I look at it in the future, my thought is not "ung.. I should have...".. instead, I can now go "yea, but I was able to get this.."

So, if it is not realistic to change something that will cost a lot to "fix" ask them how they can change your perception of it by maybe adding a feature?

Less to add than to replace.. and both parties win.

I had a house they totally messed up the front entrance on. Would have delayed the final construction by like 4 weeks and cost thousands of dollars. I had them add that money into the landscaping. Then, when I looked at the house (which the entire entrance was off center because they made the pillars too large).. I was like, "yea, but I have the nicest yard around.. heh"

They got to meet timeline, and saved a few thousand and I got a nice yard.

BUT.. don't settle. Make it work for both of you and always point back to the contract as to what was agreed to, then find a nice win-win

GL!

Russ

I am going to play Devil's advocate here. Joseph Corlett is right (someone check on Joe, my agreeing with him might have given him a heart attack), and the kitchen designer is right. Ignore the contract now and work the problem. That contract means that you are absolutely right and for a $2,500 retainer plus another $1,500 in fees an attorney will prove it for you. Even if you go to small claims court and win, you are going to get monetary damages because at that point you are not going to want to work with them.

It is OK to play hardball. Make yourself look hard to please, keep insisting on getting more or better than what they offer. But keep your eye on the ball - getting the best repair you can without months or years of legal hassles.

Question....am I right to interpret that this cabinet will then be glued together after the haircut? -

Your cabinets are probably already glued together, I am not sure what size doors you have but from someone who is a woodworker the odds of those doors not being joined and glued is ridiculously small. A good cabinet maker or installer should be able to cut a drawer down, glue it back up and with a nearly invisible seam that is stronger than it started.

Dovetails are not a measure of quality, they are a measure of craftsmanship. A lock rabbet is easier and stronger than a dovetail. I hand cut my dovetails, even though it is not as strong, it says something about the care and time that I put into a piece. Your cabinetmaker probably doesn't hand cut his dovetails he does something like this. This isn't to say that you didn't buy quality, shops do this because customers demand it. But again - modern glues are stronger than the wood they glue together and a quality repair will be almost unnoticeable and just as strong.

If I were you, I would ask to see the repair before you OK'd it. Insist that you will accept no defects in the face of the cabinet. While drawers and boxes are easy, anything with a stain on it is another matter. However, your cabinets look to be European overlay (it is hard for me to tell) so you will not really need face frames, just a new door. You might insist on a discount.

Edit: If you watch the video ignore the fact that they forgot to put the drawer bottom in before glue up, or that for some unknown reason they brad nail it together (very badly at that). Just pray these are not your cabinet makers...

Thank you to all. It's great to get different perspectives and helps to keep me focused. We are not completely opposed to compromise and working through ways that prevent ripping the whole thing out and doing it over. We just want to ensure we are happy with the end result. Having said that, in order to be happy with the end result it seems like there will have to be a lot of ripping out, remanufacture and reinstall.
It is interesting that the company had been careful NOT to say "well you signed off on this detail. By doing so they will leave themselves open to the fact that I did not sign off on the entire kitchen as is and what I signed off on is something different.
We are going to try to connect mid-week again and at that point see what solutions are formally presented.
Some may be acceptable, some may not. We will see. I am pretty sure they are not going to go far enough as his priority concerns seemed to be different then mine.
Really, I am livid. I have tried very hard not to end up in a shouting match because I don't think that is very productive. At this point the company has only been dealing with me. My husband and I will be presenting ourselves as a team at the next meeting, and he's pretty good at articulating the line of acceptability. Thus far I have been non commital to most of the suggestions just to see what they are offering. The next meeting they will get the picture of what is acceptable to us (and involves some compromise) and what is not acceptable.
The focus will be on the drawings whether he likes it or not, because basically the drawings outline what we want.
I agree that paying lawyers extra money defeats the purpose.
They are avoiding the contract for sure. I don't care as long as I get what I want/paid for. I will push the contract harder if/....more like when needed and times appropriately.

At this point I am just trying to get them to drive as much of the solution as possible. Then it's a matter of agreeing to their proposals or saying not good enough and here's what we want.

You are right with the terminology. Obviously out cabinets aren't dovetailed and just saying it sounds stupid.

But do I accept a on site cutdown? Is that reasonable construction or is direct from factory needed?

dum: I'm certain the pros and veterans can best advise regarding an onsite mod for your cabinet (just upper cabinet, right?).

I wanted to clarify that my appliance cabinet stands ~ 96" tall, and is comprised of upper cupboard, double cutouts for ovens, and lower drawer. No way their deconstruct/reconstruct fix gave me confidence. Just want to make sure I'm not needlessly tossing gas into the flame with an apples to oranges comparison.

But do I accept a on site cutdown? Is that reasonable construction or is direct from factory needed? -

I don't think we can answer this for you. That is why I would insist on final approval of repairs only after seeing the repairs. It is much more about the person making the modification than it is about where the modification is made. I doubt that a guy standing in your home can refinish one cabinet and have it match other cabinets, in fact, I really think finishes are the one place that factories have small cabinet makers beat. However, a good set of hand tools in a set of experienced hands will give you better quality than a factory any day of the week.

On a side note...I would try to avoid signing off on anything until it is done. I would simply note that you signed off on the drawings already and you will make every effort to be reasonable with their correcting efforts but will need to see results before final OK.

Also avoid shouting, avoid being forceful even. Be reasonable, understanding, empathetic and nice as hell...but tenacious. Two compliments for every complaint will knock down the walls of Babylon. Say things like, "I love the cabinets that you helped me pick, and your suggestion of X was perfect, but that adjustment at the cooktop doesn't work. Let's find a way to get those upper cabinets 3" smaller on each side." I hate that stupid saying about flies and honey but sometimes it is true.

But do I accept a on site cutdown? Is that reasonable construction or is direct from factory needed?

In the instances noted above, done properly-staples no pins, back glued into dado, frameless with new dowels it can be just as good as factory.

The door(s) MUST be new.

The few times I've done this was to save time not money- kitchen was in the process of being installed. Most were to reduce depth, only one ever for width-all were frameless. For framed I've moved rails a few times and recently rebuilt a sink base butchered by an installer (not one of mine).

As Sophie pointed out there is little to no cost savings. I find it tedious and stressful. It's best done at the shop NOT on site IMO. If I had the time I'd just order a cabinet.

I am just a lurker here but if I can be viewing this with interest; so could the KD and all the other parties in this mess. I would probably be a little more reticent about my plans if I were the OP. I hope you have copies of every bit of paperwork that you need already as stuff can be changed to their favor.

Good Luck.

Fwiw, we ended up having one cabinet cut down. Our gc didn't remember what I said I wanted for a vent hood and ordered everything based on the hood he thought I should have. I wasn't careful enough with the contract and it just specified slide out vent, not the particular one I wanted.

We split the cost--I paid for a new hood and he ate the labor for cutting down the cabinet and reinstalling it and taking down the first hood and installing the new one and also the cost of new doors. While we waited for the new doors, he cut down the old doors so the cabinet could be closed--it was good for a temporary solution. I honestly did not question him about how he cut down cabinet because he was a carpenter/cabinet maker before he became a gc and because he's an honest guy and I figured he'd do the right thing in my kitchen.

Now I can't tell the cabinet was cut down.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving all of this!

As someone getting to the final stages of starting a remodel, this is all really useful in helping to know what to keep an eye out for. Trust but verify.

Thanks to all.

"I am just a lurker here but if I can be viewing this with interest; so could the KD and all the other parties in this mess."

What is the point of an online home improvement forum if not to discuss problems and solutions?

I've cut down cabinets on site previously. It's not all that. Also, remember that cabinets are built to be installed individually. Your altered cabinet may gain strength from being ganged together with others. It doesn't really matter if the cabinet is altered and reassembled exactly the way it was originally built as long as the alterations are done well and don't show.

jelly toast: have you ever heard the sayings "loose lips sink ships" and "Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em"?

If there may be litigation down the road you don't want the opposing party to know your game plan. They can fix paperwork up to make her out to be the "crazy" woman who is unreasonably demanding.

A lot of KD's look in on here and Google could be their friend. Doesn't matter to me; it was just a friendly warning. I will now shut my mouth and go back to lurking...

I have a feeling it will all work out, no lawyers needed, just civil people getting together to find a way for the cabinets to be done right.

R

If no one posts about their problems "just in case" there might be future litigation or retaliation by a KD or contractor unethical enough to doctor paperwork, there will be very little of interest here, for lurkers or anyone else. I thought the whole point of the OP's post was to gain some perspective on her/his problem. I really don't see anything here to backfire on the OP.

If there may be litigation down the road you don't want the opposing party to know your game plan. -

I couldn't disagree more. They are in the wrong, they know they are in the wrong and just like everyone in their situation they are counting on two things. That the OP is unaware that they are wrong, and that even if the OP realizes that they are in the wrong the OP will not be willing to litigate.

The absolute best thing that can happen is the KD look at this site and realize that the OP is getting advice, both legal and professional. That the OP isn't willing to accept substandard work and all the fast talking in the world will not convince the OP to do so.

I understand the sentiment behind playing this close to the vest...But I am not a fan. The biggest bar to a workable solution is ignorance and assumed ignorance. The more informed both parties are about the intentions and knowledge of the other party the better chance everyone will walk away satisfied. Had the KD looked at this thread and realized that the OP was fully aware that the fault lies with them. They wouldn't have wasted time with the spiel about sometimes designs are changed after being signed off on and dancing around admitting fault and gone straight to working the problem.

Good evening, dum7117. I just wanted to pop in and say good luck! We're all pulling for you! :-) I truly hope you are able to get this resolved quickly and to your full satisfaction. :-)

"Had the KD looked at this thread and realized that the OP was fully aware that the fault lies with them."

Yes, we don't need to hear the contractor version of events here on Houzz, where the homeowner is always right.

Both sides spoke when they signed the drawings...Sometimes you don't need to hear the other side. A signed drawing is a legally binding addendum to a contract, at least it was when I went to law school. The purpose of the drawing is to eliminate misunderstandings, it is both sides of the story. If you can't perform to the specifations of the addendum then you must give notice of breach rather than altering the plans. Even if it is impossible, for example, suppose the cabinets the OP signed off on are no longer available, you must stop and immediately give notice of breach. Even if the OP gave the wrong measurements.

Seriously, to the KD who is reading this, free legal advise...don't have people sign the drawings if you are going to change them.

" ... here on Houzz, where the homeowner is always right."

LOL! You're joking, right?

Yes, we don't need to hear the contractor version of events here on Houzz, where the homeowner is always right.

What might you suggest the contractor's version is?

Guys, bottom line is, we have all seen the pictures and can pretty much agree it was a sloppy, if not unprofessional job that none of us would be happy with. Since we are not cabinet experts.. well, most of us.. heh, then we would be assuming, but I think it is safe to do this, that the contractor would have or should have done differently.

So, the pictures are, in my opinion, the contractors side of the events and that side looks bad.

So, the OP is working on it and can, if they choose to do so and it gets to that point, simply email them a link to here where they can add their side, or see that there are a lot of other people here more than happy to know who NOT to shop with.

I am waiting for the verdict. In the meantime, we should not kill each other over someone else's problems :P

It's pretty darn bad when "I" am not the one instigating.. lol

R

Who's killing each other? It's a discussion, people are bound to disagree.

Jopesh, isn't it really up to the designer to fully explain the potential problems a customer might face within the layout? I designed my own kitchen down to a 1/16", I measured everything out and learned that I needed 3" fillers in one area and smaller in others. Knew to give enough space around a window for the subway backsplash, etc etc...

As a graphic designer it's my duty to tell customers that certain paper/fonts/colors won't work well with together even if they demand it, I make them understand what the result will be, and steer them away from it, if they insist I make them sign and move on. At that point it's on them.

Most people don't anticipate these things therefore they sign off relying on the expert.

Agree. Professionals are hired for their expertise.

The problem in this case is that the company did not execute the signed drawings. The designer not only took liberties without even telling the OP but it also did not turn out well!

Update:

We just completed another meeting with the company and proposed adjustments that we would be willing to accept.

Our compromises include 1 inch fillers here and there to provide some breathing room between cabinets, moving the large gable and reducing a cabinet on the other side for symmetry along the window (which the KD originally wanted to charge us for, then they offered it for free as one solution). We are willing to reduce the size of some overhead cabinets on either side of the hood in order to keep the run of cabinets from being scribed into the trim. We did not agree (as suggested) to remove our trim. The large pantry will be pulled approx 1 inch from the wall and an end piece applied. The cabinet depth will remain although it encroaches into the trim on one side but we were prepared for that all along.

Overall we have found compromises that we are satisfied. We envision this will get the kitchen back to its original look with some breathing space. The original KD is off the project and we will be completing it with someone else and management. While all is not said and done, it seemed like a positive meeting.

We feel we have made some reasonable compromises, and they seem willing to make the fixes in a timely manner. They seem to be taking this opportunity to fix the problem. I get the feeling they wanted to push back for a little bit to see how far we would compromise and what they could leave as is. We are now at the point that they want their customer to be happy and are willing to do what they need to in order to make that happen. We do not feel like we have to "prove" we are right by ripping the whole thing out and starting over. We believe we can be satisfied with adjustments.

The new KD will go to the kitchen for a walk through and confirm some measurements. We will be looking forward to seeing the revised elevations and drawings prior to proceeding.

Thank you all for your support and advice. It helped me stand my ground for what we felt was most important. If there is any further news I will keep you in the loop, and post pictures of the final product when done.

Good news.....good luck!

That's great! I'm so excited for you, and looking forward to seeing the finished work. :-)

Wonderful. I hope it continues to go well. You might want to consider sharing the new elevations here so some of the folks that are great with details can take a look and see if they can identify any problems before you agree to the new plan.

And, of course, we will be thrilled to see you reveal your beautiful, finished kitchen.

Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear they are working with you to resolve this & make you a satisfied customer.

Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear it is mostly positive and hope things will go smoothly for you from here on out.

So great to hear they are are playing nice with you. You kept your cool as a cucumber attitude throughout this whole ordeal, even though I'm sure you were boiling mad under the surface. You and hubby are great examples on how to handle this type of screw up. Kudos!

This is a welcome update! You must be so relieved. Kudos to you for being clear headed enough to lay everything out nicely, but with the polite expectation that of course this should be corrected. That probably gave the other side an opportunity figure out what had happened (if they were not all already aware) and come back with a response. I think you are right not to prove a point - all that would have cost was everyone's time and money. The endgame is what matters.

Excellent! pictures or it did not happen! ;)

R