Had an architect tweak a few things and are GCing it ourselves.

Do you mean draftsman? I ask because very few architects will take someone else's plan and tweak it. There's a HUGE difference between a draftsman/designer and a licensed architect.

People are funnier than anyone else...especially when it comes to architectural design.

For the sake of argument, let's say you can hire a great licensed architect for 5% of construction costs. Wouldn't you think the house would be at least 5%:

• better planned
• more space efficient
• more energy efficient
• more suited to its site and neighborhood
• more suited to the owners' lifestyle and family
• more valuable
• fewer hassles with the local authorities: HOA, building department, planning department
• Safer, stronger and more beautiful

cpartist, no she is a licensed architect. she also flooded and was busy designing her own rebuild. She is the sister of a friend and an acquaintance, she did us a huge favor. And by favor I mean doing work a typical architect would not do, we did pay her. We also did not make huge changes. I had the permission from the folks I purchased the plan from to make changes. it wasn't perfect, but it has worked out fairly well.

For the sake of argument, let's say you can hire a great licensed architect for 5% of construction costs. Wouldn't you think the house would be at least 5%:


better planned


more space efficient


more energy efficient


more suited to its site and neighborhood


more suited to the owners' lifestyle and family


more valuable


fewer hassles with the local authorities: HOA, building department, planning department


Safer, stronger and more beautiful


umm no!
it seems to many architects beauty is paramount and durability and usability are just an after thought. it also seems there is little regard to energy efficiency or cost efficiency.

that gorgeous North facing window wall will cost the owner a mint in heating every winter.
the glazed staircase wall will be a monster to clean
that modern roof with no overhangs will cause the building to start rotting from water infiltration in just a few years.


there are several examples of beautiful but senseless architectural master pieces in the universe

"it seems to many architects beauty is paramount . . . "

Which ones?

all the popular ones

Which ones are popular?

Brooke, what type of house are you looking for and what features do you want?

"...it seems to many architects beauty is paramount and durability and usability are just an after thought. it also seems there is little regard to energy efficiency or cost efficiency..."

Continued demonstration of not knowing what one doesn't know.

Huh. The architect we interviewed last week was all about energy efficiency and smart design that could reduce construction costs.

Course411, most houses are not designed by architects, and the ones I know that were, are anything but energy efficient or cost efficient. There are several examples of grand, expensive architectural designs to be found. Few examples of energy efficient/cost efficient design.

My point was simply to provide a counterexample to your sweeping generalization. If you want energy & cost efficiency you can simply screen architects for those criteria, and avoid those whose portfolios are filled with design features you don't like. :)

my point is that hiring an architect does not automatically equal a space,/energy/cost efficient design.

There are several examples of grand, expensive architectural designs to
be found. Few examples of energy efficient/cost efficient design.

Perhaps this is because Tour of Homes, magazines, etc. tend to showcase homes that are grand and expensive.

Hiring an architect means you get a house designed for your needs. Many of the people who hire "famous" architects go in asking for beautiful, grand designs, and they're not particularly concerned with cost efficiency. The architect designs that because it's what the client wants. If they had more rich, famous clients asking for space/energy/cost efficient, that's what they would design for those clients who get their houses published.

Many architects work with clients who do care about those things, and they design accordingly.

I seems to remember that most (all) of Frank Lloyd Wright houses had structural problems, leaky roof, bad foundation... other than that ... they were grand.

Have your memory checked. Wright's buildings had problems that were within the range of normal. Do you remember anything about Wright's Imperial Hotel and earthquakes?

BT, I read something about that too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/what-frank-lloyd-wright-got-wrong-2016-8

Certain people should research the role architects have played in drastically reducing building energy consumption in the last 20 plus years. Who does DE think developed PassivHaus in the first place?

I personally know a lot of architects who take energy efficiency very seriously. If you want to work where I do (Boulder, Denver, Breckenridge, Eagle-Vail etc), you better know advanced energy efficiency strategies, or you'll never get plans approved. I'm sure the same is true of many other places.

It amazes me how many folks come on here with absolutely no design skills, buy a CAD program and then think they can design a house that is going to cost them 6 or 7 figures.

I made the mistake of thinking the draftsman our builder uses was also a designer and if it wasn't for my design background AND help from those more experienced than me (mostly the architects on this forum but also some highly qualified amateurs), my house would have been a hot mess. And like I mentioned, I do have a design background.

If I had it to do over, i'd leave the actual designing of my house to an architect. It would have saved me months of redrawing, etc. To the architects who helped with my build (you know who you are) thank you 1000x.

> Have your memory checked. Wright's buildings had problems that were within the range of normal.

Rude, and definitely NOT true. During my engineering class: Writght's buildings had a special mentioning. He did not believe in overpaying for a foundation or this thing called the "support", overruling own engineer. Frank Lloyd Wright was one of the greatest modern architects, applying open floorplans and natural lights, but a lot of his building were in no way cheap or durable...

In 2019, it's very easy to sit in a recliner with a large glass of wine and criticize Frank Lloyd Wright and other architects who practiced in the first half of the 20th century for various problems with some of their designs. Particularly so when one knows little of architecture and building technology.

How about Mr. Ford and his automobiles of the early 1900s...are they comparable to Fords of 2019? Why didn't Mr. Ford include GPS and anti-collision software...?

Get a grip on reality folks!

There also seems to be some confusion about the role an architect plays. No architect I know simply presents a house to clients and expects them to build it as is (or even after a second draft). It's a collaborative process in which clients give input to the architect about what they want, the architect produces a first draft, the clients give feedback, the architect produces another draft, and so on. So if, say, you tell the architect that a perfect rectangle is required and they produce an L, you can reiterate that on the next draft you really, truly, want just a rectangle. Hopefully you would listen to and seriously consider their case for an L (or a sphere, or whatever), but at the end of the day, you give the feedback on what you want (and are willing) to build. And no architect I know wants to spend a lot of time designing a house that doesn't get built, either.

Who does DE think developed PassivHaus in the first place?

Wolfgang Feist is a physicist, not an architect.

It amazes me how many folks come on here with absolutely no design skills, buy a CAD program and then think they can design a house that is going to cost them 6 or 7 figures.

people have been designing their own houses for millennia . in The Honest House, the author underscores the importance of a good architect but also accepts " there is no greater joy than designing your own house".

this was writtien in 1914. so cad has only made it easier. I've been working on my floorplan for months. and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. more so than if I just wrote a check to have it done for me.

knowledge is light.

@ Summit Studio Architects

> Who does DE think developed PassivHaus in the first place?

I suspect those were based on numerous engineering projects. I do NOT know if architects really study materials, alloys, heat: reflection, absorption, radiation; liquids, properties, thermodynamics, shear and moments, etc. I understand that architect can do tributary loads, but I am not sure what they teach you about them.

Feist is a physicist and Adamson is a structural engineer who collaborated on research into issues with the "low energy"houses being built at the time. They came up with a set of fundamental principles that needed to be observed, but so far as I know, they did not actually design the houses. In fact, the first examples of houses built to their principles, including Dr. Feist's own home, were designed and built by a firm of architects.

How about Mr. Ford and his automobiles of the early 1900s...are they comparable to Fords of 2019? Why didn't Mr. Ford include GPS and anti-collision software...?

uhh his engineers were telling him the designs were not structural way back then, not in 2019

What in the world does this mean?

it means in 1939 the engineer for falling water said there wasn't enough steel in falling water.

it was a lacking design by 1930s standards, not just 2019 standards.

D E.....What would help is when you quote a previous poster you either make it bold or in italics. I thought the "It amazes me how...." was from you until I read further above. Agree with most of what you say, that's why I was surprised at "It amazes..."

Because designing a house takes vision and skills that most laymen don't have and 99% of draftsmen definitely don't have.

I would add that the same applies to a good chunk of architects. It's one thing to go through school and obtain a degree, another to have the vision and creativity to be a good architect. My guesstimate would be that 5% of laymen have the necessary skills to produce a good house design, perhaps 20% of draftsfolk, maybe 40% of designers and perhaps 50% of licensed architects.

There's a HUGE difference between a draftsman/designer and a licensed architect.

I would not lump draftsman & designer together nor would I necessarily promote licensed architects above them. Around the world there are many exceptional house designers who are not architects. One current example is Jeff Murphy (http://www.murphycodesign.com) in Minnesota. Jeff is a designer, not architect, and he designs the top houses in Minnesota (and a handful elsewhere).

I have also seen many excellent houses designed by draftsfolk.

I think we have all seen a gob of monstrosities designed by architects.

Statistically a licensed architect is likely to do a better job than a draftsperson or designer but I'm not sure there's a huge gap.

For the sake of argument, let's say you can hire a great licensed architect for 5% of construction costs. Wouldn't you think the house would be at least 5%:

• better planned
• more space efficient
• more energy efficient
• more suited to its site and neighborhood
• more suited to the owners' lifestyle and family
• more valuable
• fewer hassles with the local authorities: HOA, building department, planning department
• Safer, stronger and more beautiful

Some architects may do a great good job on these some not. See post above. Being a licensed architect does not mean that they are any more intelligent than a designer, draftsperson or their client. It does not mean that they are any more creative.

Sadly most architects do not have a good understanding of energy efficiency. This even in Minnesota. Even when clients very specifically want good energy efficiency and even when they ask for some of the right things like external foam, architects and builders muff it up because they don't understand basic principles like dew points inside of wall structures and use too little exterior foam resulting in moisture problems.

Certain people should research the role architects have played in drastically reducing building energy consumption in the last 20 plus years. Who does DE think developed PassivHaus in the first place?

The original bits of Passivhaus were documented and further developed by Dr. Wolfgang Feist (who is a physicist) based on efforts by a neighbor who was marketing person but wanted a more energy efficient house. Some of the concepts were also developed by a group of structural and civil engineers in Sweden who have also credited a sound engineer from a local recording studio.

Feist has stated several times that he's experienced considerable pushback from architects when it came to implementing passivhaus principles.

While for people who have the ability and desire I strongly recommend getting a college degree, such as in architecture, it is in no way a guarantee of ability or success nor does the lack of a college degree indicate that someone is not capable. Just for grins, a few folks who do not have college degree (a few of whom are high school dropouts):

• Richard Branson (Virgin...)
• Dave Thomas (Wendys)
• David Karp (Tumblr)
• Micheal Dell (Dell Computer)
• Larry Ellison (Oracle)
• John Mackay (Whole Foods)
• Bill Gates (Microsoft)
• Steve Jobs (Apple, NeXT, Pixar)

And a very long list of others who only made tens of millions rather than billions. 19% of the Forbes 400 do not have a college degree and 5% did not complete high school.

This is a tired, old argument which refuses to die, i.e., why use an architect to design a custom house, instead of a drafter, CAD operator, the local lumberyard guy, or a generic plan from one of the many Internet plan factories. Or better yet, why not just buy a junior CAD program, play around with it for a year or more, and then ask a builder to give you a price for a design that one does for him/her self using the CAD program?

One could make exactly the same argument (and some here have done so) when it comes to a medical condition, your year-end taxes, investments, legal proceedings, prescriptions and the like. Why use a professional for any of these, when one can Google an answer at no personal expense?

Time to get back to the OP's question of where/how to find a plan or design a house.

You never hear someone say "if Bill Gates can create Microsoft, I should be able to do my own knee surgery".

Back to the original question... your choices are pre-existing plans from the internet, DIY and a talented (or not so talented) designer. Just saying...I've done a ton of remodels to repair the first two.

If you still insist on DIY you must learn at a minimum:

• Site analysis (views, micro-climate and solar analysis)
• Grading and drainage
• Building codes and local regulations
• Space organization (adjacency matrices and bubble diagrams)
• Structural basics (foundation, roof, wall and floor framing)
• Some form of drafting

Also, no one suggested architects are more intelligent: however, we are educated and trained to do what we do.

One could make exactly the same argument (and some here have done so) when it comes to a medical condition, your year-end taxes, investments, legal proceedings, prescriptions and the like. Why use a professional for any of these, when one can Google an answer at no personal expense?

Time to get back to the OP's question of where/how to find a plan or design a house

This is the tired old argument. I dont go to a doctor when I scrape my knee or have a cold. 99$% of people can do their taxes with turbotax as well as an CPA can, you can get legzoom for legal documents. Not everything requires retaining a trained professional.

To go back to the OPs question - Sarah Susanka, Author of Not So Big House, and an architect herself says she tells people who are trying to build on a budget to find a stock plan from a plan book(or online nowadays) ,as it saves the cost of the architect's fees.

If buying land and designing, building, living in and financing a new custom home is the same thing to you as a scraped knee or a sore throat, then just go for it...

You will be the one living with your decisions.

Ok, a question for the architects here (for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect).

Let's say someone is going to buy a perfectly flat piece of land (say, 3 to 5 acres) with decent enough views in all directions. Natural gas, sewer, and electric are all available to the property. So, no unusual site conditions need to be considered.

If this person has seen a floor plan online from a (gasp) tract home neighborhood that is selling in a totally different state but they love the floor plan and it meets their needs, how would that person go about getting the necessary plans to have that floor plan built? (The online site also has exteriors.)

One, hopefully final, comment. I am not at all against architects and I frequently recommend that people "talk to an architect or designer".

However, I think it's important for people to realize that not all architects are of equal ability and some architects are actually quite awful at what they do. Likewise there are many designers that are exceptional as well as a few draftsfolk and even lay people who are quite good.

Don't be ignorantly blinded by a title... or lack of one.

opaone, the same can be said of just about any profession. When DH and I moved to a new town, we chose a dentist at random (close to our place of employment). At our first visit, we were both told that we needed a ton of dental work right away - fillings replaced, new crowns, etc.. I called BS (and wondered how big a boat that dentist just bought), and asked around for recommendations from friends and coworkers.

When we first saw the recommended dentist, we were both told things like "You have a filling that will need to be replaced - eventually. At some point you'll probably need a crown here." There was not one thing that had to be done immediately. 25 years later, we continue to see (and trust) the same dentist.

Some professionals are more talented - and trustworthy - than others. It is important to understand what makes one better than another, and to shop around until you find the one who is right for you.

Virgil Carter Fine Art If buying land and designing, building, living in and financing a new custom home is the same thing to you as a scraped knee or a sore throat, then just go for it... You will be the one living with your decisions.

the vast majority of people live in homes that were not designed by an architect. To suggest that one cannot have a good home unless it was designed by an architect is simply untrue

DE, you simply don't know what you don't know.

Because the majority of Americans (and Canadians?) live in tract homes built by faceless builders in no way means that that is the best or only way in which to have a home.

Of course you know this because you are enamored with a CAD system, playing with your own personal designs for your own home.

Having one's own home has two meanings, at the very least:

1. A home for which a family must adjust their living preferences and habits, or;

2. A home that is designed for the family's prefered needs and wants.

Hubby and I raised two kids in a house designed by a builder - a spec house. It has been functional for us, and there are a lot of things I like about it. But the kitchen was a hot mess until we remodeled 6 years ago.

Even though we have lived very comfortably in this house for 28 years does not mean that it is a house I would choose if I was starting from scratch.

you might take a look at allison ramsay's homes, we are very happy with ours...5 years after the build...many of their plans are low country, vernacular, sort of farmhouse type homes...might not appeal to everyone

oops thats allison ramsey architects smugmug, for plans and pics.