Software
Houzz Logo Print
webuser_546655277

Wiring code questions

6 years ago

My electrician connected 14 wires to 12 wires that connect to a 20 amp breaker. The 14 wires were original and go from the receptacles to the junction box, in the junction box, they are connected to the 12 wires which then connect to the 20 amp breaker.

After learning this, I did a bit of research and have learned this is not to code. Is it unsafe? Should I have him redo them with the 14 wire??


Second question-- I have an electric air handler that was on its own breaker. He just took four receptacles that were on another breaker and added them to the air handler since "all it uses is a spark." Is this to code?


Comments (18)

  • 6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    We are in Texas and follow the national electric standard. It's copper wiring.

  • 6 years ago

    No, it is not to any code. If anything is on a 20 amp breaker then you need 12AWG wire. If you want 14 AWG wire then you must have a 15 amp breaker. You cannot mix wire gauges. Not clear on you second question.

    JJ Smith thanked Mike C
  • 6 years ago

    to clarify the second question— the heating unit is gas but had its own circuit (Let’s call it #1). There were too many outlet receptacles on another circuit (let’s call it #2), so he took four outlets off of #2 and put them on with #1, since all the furnace uses is a “spark“ to light the fire.

    Wondering if it is to code to add receptacles to a circuit dedicated to a furnace.


  • 6 years ago

    Ron Natalie:


    He is a journeyman. He did the other remodeling wiring for the house and is on the permit under his master.

    The other wiring he did was all *new* wiring for new lights and outlets so I don't think mixing wire gauges was an issue. But I will review it...


    Regarding your point/questions; the furnace is on a 20 amp circuit and the four receptacles that were combined with that circuit are duplex, 15 amp with 14g wiring. Three are in the living room and one is outside by the back door and is weather resistant GFCI.

  • 6 years ago

    Should I ask him to take those four outlets off the furnace circuit?

    And put 15 amp breakers and 14g wires on the other two circuits he mixed wire gauges?

  • 6 years ago

    Good grief. This guy is a numbskull, and I'm being polite. In your place, I wouldn't ask him to do anything. In fact, I wouldn't let him within a mile of my house again.

    Ron has explained what needs to be done now. I wouldn't move the extra recepts to a different circuit, I'd disconnect them until someone who knows what he's doing can review this idiot's work. If they're otherwise OK, they can be connected to a different 15 amp circuit. Not 20 amp.

    I'm pretty sure that legally this guy's supervisor is responsible for his work. Ron can correct me if that's wrong. I'm not sure I'd trust him either, given the judgement he's shown in letting this joker do work unsupervised.

    JJ Smith thanked DavidR
  • 6 years ago

    Well, the definition of technician certification vary from location to location, but Texas would seem to be like most places. A journeyman is REQUIRED to know this stuff and implement it without supervision. Even apprentices are supposed to know better.


    FIRE the idiot and get a competent person in there to inspect the existing work and figure out what it needs to have fixed. You don't know what other kind of tomfoolery is present. This is pretty damned basic stuff about branch circuits. It's not esoteric (but still required to be known).

    JJ Smith thanked Ron Natalie
  • 6 years ago

    does that gas furnace have a blower?

    JJ Smith thanked weedmeister
  • 6 years ago

    The gas furnace does have a blower.


    I wish I was in a position to fire him and find a better electrician to inspect his work and finish the job. But the reality is it was extremely difficult to find someone to take the job in the first place. For someone to come behind this guy, check his work and finish out, would be cost prohibitive, not to mention the increased difficulty of finding someone with COVID 19 everywhere.


    He can be a little difficult, but overall, he is more customer service oriented than many other guys and does want the home owner to be happy.


    Yesterday morning, I called the city chief electric inspector and confirmed that mixing wire gauges is code violation and he also recommended keeping the gas furnace on it's own circuit.


    I addressed these issues with the electrician and he denied that it would be a problem, although he did admit it was code violation. He has does a lot of work on new construction and kept referencing what electricians do on other jobs. (There is somewhat of a language barrier too)

    So I called his master, the master told me to work it out with my electrician, but he agreed they are code violations and in the least, the electrician should change the circuit breakers to 15 amps.


    I addressed this with the electrician AGAIN and he said the 20 amp circuit breakers were fine. So then I called his master AGAIN, reminded the master that there will be a city inspection and HIS name is the one on the permit, and the master called the electrician and told him to change the breakers to 15 amps.


    I also reminded the electrician the city would be inspecting. Then he kind of changed his attitude. He decided to change the breakers to 15 amps and redo the wiring to 14 g because he didn't want the city inspector to give him problems when they see 15 amps connected to 12 g wire.


    He also took the four outlets off of the 20 amp furnace circuit and put them together with another old wiring 15 amp circuit.


    I appreciate the advice I received. Even though I didn't fire him, you helped me stand my ground with him correcting this problem. He's done for now, only the final is left.


    If I can find another electrician to go in and check his work, I will do that.



  • 6 years ago

    I don't think there's anything wrong with having 12 Ga wire connected to 15 amp breakers. There are reasons other than code requirements with having heavier wire than necessary (e.g. very long runs), but if the wires are already 12 Ga (with 14 Ga extensions), just change the breakers to 15 Amp.

    Why did your electrician feel it necessary to put your new receptacles on the furnace circuit?

    JJ Smith thanked mtvhike
  • 6 years ago

    Your electrician is either incompetent or defrauding you. There is no way a branch circuit like this can have any 14g wire if there is a 20A breaker. It's just wrong without exception.


    Like I said, there's all sorts of things wrong here. GET A SECOND OPINION.

    JJ Smith thanked Ron Natalie
  • 6 years ago

    Mtvhike,

    All his master and I asked him to do was change the breakers to 15 amps, but he went ahead and changed the wire too (it wasn't so long) because he was worried about the city inspection.

    Regarding moving the receptacles to the furnace unit circuit, they weren't new receptacles, they were old. Those receptacles were on an old circuit with too many things on it. He was trying to lighten the overloaded circuit by putting those four receptacles on with the furnace which was a dedicated circuit. It seemed like an easy solution to him.


  • 6 years ago

    Ron Natalie:


    The 15 amp circuits now have all 14 g wire. The 20 amp circuits now have all 12 g wire.


    At first, as you suggested, he put 15 amp breakers on those circuits with mixed wire.

    He then went ahead and decided to remove the 12 g wire and replace it with 14 g-- so there is NO MORE mixed wire.


    He did this yesterday and the city electrical inspector will look at it tomorrow.


    Is there something else I am missing?

  • 6 years ago

    Is there something else I am missing?

    That's the million dollar question!

    If an 'electrician' is fine with having obvious code violations that even you as a layperson could identify, what other violations and dangerous situations did they create that you DIDN'T notice?


    You've forced them to fix the issues that you've presented in this thread, but that doesn't mean that the rest of their work is good and safe. And an inspection isn't a deep dive into everything, so you can't depend on an inspection catching all of the errors.


    You should be able to trust pros to do it right. You obviously can't trust these 'pros'.

    JJ Smith thanked greg_2015
  • 6 years ago

    Greg_2015


    I absolutely get what you are saying. However, he has already done so much work on the the house. The work is done now.


    I don't know if I will find someone who can completely and thoroughly check his work. Most of this was a remodel behind closed walls and in the attic.


    Other than having the city inspect it and trying to find someone else to take a look at the work more in depth best they can, I'm not sure what else I can do.



  • 6 years ago

    An inspector is always the last resort. I've seen them carp on things that were legal and safe and they miss glaringly obvious stuff. Again, mixed wiring, while uncommon, isn't illegal or unsafe as long as the breaker is sized for the smallest wire in the circuit.


    Glad to know he fixed it up.

    JJ Smith thanked Ron Natalie
  • 6 years ago

    The inspector came today, barely looked at anything and passed it quickly.

    It seems the main benefit to having a permit, is that the contractors seem to feel more internal pressure to do things right if they know the inspector is coming.