What's in your contracts with these various pros?

Not enough ownership. Pool guy was just pool. Landscaper just landscaping. Architect was oversight and coordination. He contacted electrician, inspectors etc. But bottom line I think the contracts have enough weasel language that they can’t be held to pay. The architect offered to be the general contractor verbally. His invoices are hefty and sat construction management and oversight

Is there anything in the contracts specifically about the grounding conduit? I'm afraid to say if all you have is a vebal agreement with the architect you probably don't have much recourse there.

Nobo mentioned grounding conduit. But pool guy said you have to be stupid to put in a patio without an inspection. We were under the impression it had been inspected. Pool inspector came twice and findings were remedied.

Who put in the patio?

We have 30 pages of construction documents. The LA coordinated with pool guy and everyone else. He provided plans, he coordinated inspections etc. He was very patronizing to pool guy and they behaved childishly and I suspect that is where the disconnect is. I need to check plans and see if conduit is on it. The landscaper brought in the architect because it was a big project with drainage concerns etc. He did the patio. But it was supposedly a coordinated effort, not us trying to scratch it together .

It's not about who coordinated construction after documents were issued. It's about what's on the documents and under who's scope that entails.

Whoever is listed as the electrical contractor, is responsible. But, in his defense, if the patio was installed without his knowledge prior to allowing him to place the required bond wire, then it's on the general contractor or whomever wrote the pool contract that you agreed to. Sounds like poor communication and lack of experience with pools.

About 15+ years ago an electrical inspector I dealt with often on my projects, told me a story where he specifically told a GC to make sure he called for the perimeter bonding inspection before the patio was installed. Well, he did not and the inspector demanded the patio torn up for the inspection. I'm actually not sure if the bond wire was ever installed.

The inspector was well within his right.

I've worked with plenty of landscape architects in my 36 years in business. When it comes to the pool details, including inspections, I am on top of that and am responsible.

Everybody wants to be a pool builder. Do what you do best and stick with it. Hire the pros who know what they are doing instead of "winging" it yourself.

We we were not winging it. We hired the la to pull it together. We had worked with pool guy and landscaper before

I was speaking of the contractors in general winging it on pools. Not you. You trusted these people to do their due diligence and they did not come through.

Write a formal complaint to the AIA, but before you send it, tell the architect if he buys you a new ground wire and patio, you'll burn it. Let him pick his poison.

Thanks. I’ll give them a chance to provide his mediation plan. But he said before he left on vacation he’d let us know the cost.

Remediation

"Write a formal complaint to the AIA, but before you send it, tell the architect if he buys you a new ground wire and patio, you'll burn it. Let him pick his poison."

The AIA (American Institute of Architects) has NO governance over landscape architects - entirely different profession with different regulatory requirements. So that's a pretty idle threat :-)

I’ve accepted as much as I can that I’m stuck with the cost of his failures. But I don’t want him to be able to offer similar services in the future because he’s not capable. The other major failure is that after 30 pages of architectural drawings, the pool equipment is prominent. 😳 he didn’t realize how big it is. We bought cedar screens from wayfair and the landscaper is planting arbor vitae but I was kind of counting on him to make it pretty

Ok, I'm kind of wondering here.... is this the same landscape architect you had problems with a year ago in this thread?

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6099797/over-budget-landscaping

And also curious, are they actually a landscape architect, or a landscape designer?

Lol it is.I guess the clue bird should have landed. His title is Principal Landscape Architect

He offers site planning and civil engineering as services

Well, if they are an architect (and not just title themselves as one), they should be licensed with the state. So can be reported to the state association for that. AILA- L for the landscape. Designers can be reported too, but they aren't neccessarily state licensed like architects are supposed to be. There is also an ASLA you can hit up- they are Society instead of Institute.

You are going to want to make sure you document real well- since you opted not to drop them a year ago and this has been going on for a while, that can make it a bit extra messy beyond the verbal agreement thing.

I was thinking we should start a chronology of events

We liked his aesthetic but he is a terrible manager

You probably should start one. Pull every piece of paper, email, text going back over the last year and more. As precisely as you can, journal in your notes of verbal agreements, conversations, issues as they came up and were or weren't addressed. Get copies of all inspection reports.

Ty

"I need to check plans and see if conduit is on it."

FIND that paper.

Looks like electrical didn’t warrant a layer. I didn’t see any bonding stuff. He’s blaming the pool guy

I sure wish architects were issued stop work orders, but they're only given to us lowly contractors and tradesmen. They'd pay a lot more attention if they had some skin in the game.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC do you know the size of wire, how far away from the pool, how deep, or how many #8 you can put in a 1/2" conduit? As a counter extraordinaire, I wouldn't expect you to know the exact NEC code excerpts for a dishwasher and SABC's in a kitchen, even though you are installing the counters in that same kitchen.

So I wouldn't expect a Landscape Architect to know about pool electrical code, nor would I want to rely on one for that. I would not even expect a LA to fully design and spec out low-voltage lighting even though it is intertwined with the landscape they are designing. Now, if I wanted a LA to include all electrical in their design scope of work and pay them for those services, I would fully expect that they would hire an electrical engineer to produce drawings and specs that the LA would then include as part of their deliverables package.

What is construction management and oversight of not making sure inspections happen and it’s built to code?

Construction management does not make sure it's built to code. That's what construction documents are for and inspections try to ensure. And even with that, many a complicated project has hiccups, that's why there are change orders and lawyers to wade through who is responsible for paying for things, whether unforseen or missed inadvertently.

I do not know what reassurances the LA gave you for construction administration, what's on the documents, and what the communication was between subs and the LA or the City. It can be a messy process. As an example in many towns, if a "Construction Manager" (e.g. G.C.) is not listed on the permit (and bonded themself), then the electrician listed is the only one who can call to make an inspection appointment for electrical.

In this situation I don't know the documents, the contracts, the paper trail, or who's at fault, and am not trying to defend your LA. I am just trying to give insight on what the typically assigned scope is and how the process works when it appears you are not fully aware.

The long and short of it is, whichever contractor wrote the contract that you signed, they are responsible for every aspect of the contract agreement. If they hire subs, they are still responsible. If the subs don't their jobs, the contractor can take it up with them.

The two most important parts on a swimming pool, in my opinion, are, approved suctions inlets to meet code for entrapment and electrical bonding.

3:

What part of "We engaged the landscape architect to stay on to provide oversight over the pool contractor and landscaper." do you not understand please?

Joe: Here's the gap in this thread getting hung up on - the OP and you thinks a G.C. was hired, who happens to be the Landscape Architect. A G.C. means that that entity (here the LA) hires, pays for, assumes responsibility, and warrants work from all of their own subcontractors. However, that doesn't appear to be the case here as the OP has individually hired each one (the pool guy, the landscaper, the Landscape Architect) themself under separate contracts, and yes initially said:

"We engaged the landscape architect to stay on to provide oversight over the pool contractor and landscaper."

The LA is NOT a G.C., but providing Construction Administration for the owner. This relieves the LA of responsibility for deficiencies in the Construction Documents. Of course, there also appears to be no contract for this service (which AIA has templates available for Construction Administration), so a lawyer will need be involved to assign blame.

Here is a link that summarizes what Construction Administration means, which is different from what a General Contractor for construction does. Typically you only find this service on very high end residential, but pretty much all large non-residential projects:

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/construction-administration

Yet his invoices say construction “management.“ and oversight. Pool guy maintains pool is safe. Meeting inspector here shortly

I learned more from pool guy. He said who ever does patio usually does this. When he left off with pool, the area enough was not yet prepped enough. The landscaper did patio and doesn’t work with pools a lot. Which is why we needed coordination and oversight. They took a long hiatus after pool was finished for winter. Inspector was here and not about to let it be waived. If the patio was concrete there would be rebar underneath serving the same function.

3:

What your saying makes no sense. What is "Construction Administration" if it's not making sure the project is built properly? What are you paying this guy to do please?

"...to ensure the full, timely, and proper performance of all phases of a construction project by all contractors, suppliers, and other persons having responsibility for project work and any guarantees or warranties pertaining thereto"

"... the observation, inspection and Quality Assurance review of the Construction Professionals’ Work;"

I love it when an interlocutor's link makes my point. Thanks.

"The architect owed a duty of care to the contractor"

edit

Joe, you've missed the point that for Construction Administration (or Management), that person is not designing and spec'ing the project. And you didn't understand what you read in the link. Really, the OP is the G.C. here, it doesn't matter that he paid an LA to "coordinate schedules." So the OP is expected to know the pool needed bonded and grounded because it wasn't on drawings provided by the pool contractor? Because he didn't. So, if the LA wasn't there, he'd only have himself to blame.

Joe, I went to the link you provided on the Florida case. It lays out perfectly what Construction Administration is, but again, you are missing the point. No where in that brief did they say the contractor was fired because they didn't know to install an item that was not designed or spec'd on construction documents. That brief is in regards to the contractor just being able to continue work under their original contract, but were fired from having that opportunity (and the reason why they were fired was not stated).

The pool issue is a simple one. The pool needs an item installed. That item was not indicated anywhere by the party responsible to indicate it needed installed. So others, that are not the party responsible to indicate it needed installed, are being blamed for not knowing.

The Landscape Architect is not responsible to know how the pool equipment is being connected to the electrical, and doesn't show that on their drawings. The pool contractor has an in-house, or hired an electrician, to hook up the pool equipment. The bonding and grounding is part of that electrical equipment.

Actually the landscape architect hired the electrician and scheduled all inspections. The pool put in the pool and then it was weeks/months before the patio prep happened. He could not have put in cable before then. By the time he came back to turn in pump, electrician had come and gone and patio had been installed. The one person who claimed to be coordinating this all was LA.

In case you're curious

Landscaper said 5-6k T&M budget to pull up patio and lay cable but electrician would have to hook it up

Sickening. sorry you are going through this.

Patio guy said AT&T budget of 5-6 k to redo

T&M