@Frank and Frank

I was wondering that myself and I hear what you are saying, but I don't think that applies here. An 18' x 18' great room with a vaulted ceiling is a VERY common home addition, so the architect's guess isn't as "wild" as it may seem.

I may be wrong.

I was going to do an addition 6 years ago and went the architect route. The architect I used had no idea of costs and gave me 3 plans/sketches. The builder I wanted to use said one of the drawings would be within my budget but not the other two (he said the windows alone would eat my entire budget in the other sketches). The builder told me he could do it within my budget, however after he gave me a breakdown, 6 months later, it turned out to be $1,000 (Cdn) per square foot and twice my budget. and that did not include any internal finishes. Now I have architect drawings costing thousands, which are useless. I live in an expensive summer area. Builders here are chasing the multi multi million dollar cottage builds.

Based on my experience with the architect route, I would avoid it …unless you are very confident the architect has a good knowledge of what the actual cost of things are.

"He was actually an architect who also owned a construction company. He was able to very confidently give me an OPC of $200/SF."

Will he put that in writing and do the project for you at that exact amount?

@millworkman

You know he's not going to do that. Nor would I.

Good read.

Another thing you could look in to help determine how much to spend on the addition. Get comps in your area from a local Realtor that has access to the MLS or hire a home appraiser to help determine what the addition's value would add to the value of your home.

Wishing and hoping that is directly contrary to the hard evidence that you have received is a good way to get fleeced out of your money.

Look at already built homes that have the similar future size and the features that you want. What have they sold for in the past year? Now look at the comps for your existing home, as is. What is that cost delta? Double that figure, and that’s going to be the starting market rate for getting your addition. I doubt seriously if it will be anywhere close to as low as 65K. Garages cost more than that to build.

Costs are very local. Pre covid my neighbors put in an addition tied to the house, a small room, a large bedroom and a large nice bathroom for about 165/soft. My boss is now building (fixed cost, foundation and framing done) a detached studio, large, with a bathroom and kitchenettes ( he did not get approval for a full kitchen) for around $200/sqft.

In my area, if you look at nice new builds, it give you some idea of costs for an addition. I think the addition costs are higher but not by orders of magnitude.

Well, TX doesnt even require licensing for contractors, so, there's that. A bit less overhead for the legitimate ones. And hordes of illegitimate ones to weed through.

"You know he's not going to do that. Nor would I."

If he can build it for that price sign him up to build it.

Unless you have a detailed estimate that includes current bids to build with a timeline of how long bids are accurate for it doesn’t matter what someone says it costs verbally.

Right. But the whole point of what I’m doing here is trying to gauge approximately what the cost will be before I commit any design money.

Impossible

"But the whole point of what I’m doing here is trying to gauge approximately what the cost will be before I commit any design money."

Not going to happen. You need drawings and a design to get the price. That is just the way it is. No one can tell you exactly what it will cost until it is on paper and designed that way they can figure the exact material required. You are attempting this by putting the cart in front of the horse.

Look - you received a quote that you are happy with - so proceed. There is no way for anyone to gauge what the final costs will be in your specific case. Even with a contract, and much more specific terms - specific written terms - there would have to be provisions for overages, especially in this climate. So your best bet - would be to direct these questions and concerns to the person you are considering using for this project. The $200 sq ft guy. Ask him for an estimate of what the final costs will be. The builders here are not dealing in the numbers you were quoted They are not quoting those type of numbers upfront.

^^^ And this should be fairly convenient - as the architect is also the builder (?)

According to OP, the architect owns the construction company.

@Charles Ross Homes

You have highlighted some excellent points in this reply. Thanks!

Yes, this is a very difficult time to gauge anything. We're dealing with many moving targets in terms of material prices and labor availability. We're also dealing with opportunists...those who are charging as much as they dare to (and more) because they can find people in this unstable and unpredictable climate who are willing to pay it.

...

I like your idea of paying an architect to do the concept work, then using that to get an OPC from a contractor. That is a great idea and minimizes the risk.

In fact, one of the architects I have spoken to organizes his projects like that, albeit for another reason. He used to charge a flat "Great Room" fee, which included both concept work and fully detailed construction plans. But he was getting burnt when some of his clients would go for a variance and/or HOA approval and get declined, then get pissed off and not pay him. This is completely, absolutely wrong on the part of the client but it happened often enough that he changed his policy into a 2-part system.

Thanks again for the ideas and the guidance.

I do think that the localized costing nature of the construction business can make a thread like this very tricky. I speak in terms of suburban Philadelphia dollars. Someone who speaks Santa Monica dollars doesn't understand me, and I don't understand him/her. My "insane" price might be your bargain price. It's just something that needs to be considered in this thread.

There are all sorts of calculators on the internet - how many studs, how many rafters, how many concrete blocks (for that type of foundation), how much concrete etc. which you can use to estimate the VERY rough amount of basic material you may need to build something of ”A x B x C “ feet. Of course doing it this way doesn’t take a lot of items into account, and there are a lot of items (nails, caulk, drywall tape, gravel, drainage pipe, blah blah) . However I found it a good starting point to think through the process and (some of ) the materials …to estimate how much the labour etc. was going to be. For example, I knew that my foundation was going to be concrete block ”x” feet long “ y” feet high. I used a calculator to determine how many blocks I would need and what size they should be as well as how much “Quickrete” would be needed, as well as all the footing calculations (rebar etc) excavation was a different calculation. I then (over) estimated that it would take a ” Red Seal” Stonemason a week to do the foundation at $200/hr, (lol) when it was only a square footage area that any half decent mason could do in 2-3 days. I determined I was being overcharged for at least $10,000 on this one item (he wasn’t using a qualified mason) and it went downhill from there. Of course there are unforseen things that crop up -oops a 3 ton boulder right where the foundation is supposed to go (lol) however it seems to me there are a lot of repetitive items that are fairly straight forward for contractors to estimate. The shroud of secrecy and the perpetual ”you’re at fault homeowner because you’re one of those “picky people/trouble makers” is ridiculous. What other product does someone buy in the world where there is no end price in what you pay in the end …just ”speculating”

Gargamel homeowners often expect builders and architects to do free labour to give them quotes. We ascertained a very basic budget from multiple builders but it wasn’t till we hired one and put our specs in that we got a line item budget which we paid them for their time on.

My point was that there are calculators on line to give a very general idea - at least that way someone has a minimum ballpark of material costs. If that amount turns out to be too much, no point in going further. I certainly didn’t consider it free labour when I gave quotes in my business. I considered it a cost of doing business. If I didn’t want the job I would tell people I was fully booked .

I think it depends on your business. A single trade gives one quote for their own services. A builder needs to get quotes from multiple trades and discern the level of finishing a homeowner wants to provide any level of accuracy. One single business is not comparable to a builder getting a quote for an entire project. Now a general idea fair to have that on the ready with examples of what it might include and caveats. A line item quote no way

In my case, I don't see why someone can't give me a reasonably close (+/- 15%) OPC.

1. A Great Room addition is a *very* common project. Contractors will have no shortage of past invoices to look at.

2. If this were 2 years ago, I could see inflation making the quoting process not only very difficult but scary for the contractor. But (knock on wood), inflation has mostly stabilized. Lumber has dropped significantly. It's not back to pre-Covid levels, but it's reasonable again. Demand is also dropping rapidly.

3. There's nothing crazy about my project. I'm not cutting open a 150-year-old balloon-framed house and building atop a stone foundation in a township that's going to fight me every step of the way. There are no exotic finishes (there are really no finishes). The engineering is as close to a copy-and-paste as it gets.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Well now you have two vastly different numbers. How in depth is what they’ve given you? How confident are you that either are accurate or based on anything?

Seriously, you need workable plans and if you are really committed to doing this, then spend the money, it’s a small amount and needed to move this project forward. You can take your plans and list of expected finish quality to a GC and he can give you a general bid, probably within 10-15% of the actual finished cost to you. Depending on how much work you want to put into this, you could find your own subs and get a bid from each, that’s going to be lower than the GC but you must drive job, but with your level of concern that might be your best course of action. Have you check with your city about what they require for the permit ? It might take you 2 months to put that stuff together and get your permit

@WestCoast Hopeful

I suspect that the $200/SF is somewhat low. I suspect that the $500/SF way high.

The numbers I've been given are based on 3 documents:

1, my floorplan drawing

2. my specs

3. my design objectives

“But (knock on wood), inflation has mostly stabilized.”

HA!

Do your specs include products and finishes?

Yes.

Then you should be getting decent examples of costs. Maybe get a couple more and then decide. The thing we found which was hard is the balance of cost with good communication with someone we felt we trusted and wanted to work with. We said no to someone who builds phenomenal homes who we got along great with but their costs were just not possible for us.

@WestCoast Hopeful

I have a few more emails out to a few more architects and might go meet with one this week.

Since you have contributed so much to this thread (thank you for that), what were the details of your project? Do you have any pics to share?

Ours wasn’t a renovation. We built a new house. Or shall I be accurate and say we paid for one to be built. :)

One thing I've noticed as I talk to various D&Bs and/or contractors is that NONE of them like the idea of me writing specific materials into the contract. For example, Grade 1 lumber. I make it very clear to them that I understand that up-spec'd materials will cost more and that I'm willing to pay for them, yet they still don't like it. Why would this be? The only reason I can think of is that they have hidden profit in the form of using sub-grade materials, and hard specs would eradicate that profit. Thoughts?

Thanks.

"The only reason I can think of is that they have hidden profit in the form of using sub-grade materials"

They are already reading between the lines of the client they think you will be. Not all yards carry a "Grade 1. Most have a No. 2 and better framing lumber, you will get some select and some 2 and some No. 1. Most mills will not even grade it out that way.

I doubt it. It’s probably more like they’ve seen clients change their minds repeatedly about finish materials. They use low “allowances” as a baseline for the contract, knowing that not everything will be selected before they get started.

@Louis

Excuse me?

Are you even an educated person?

Louis’ comment is rude but parts are accurate. You can indicate certain aspects of a project but trades are likely to be offended by what appears to be micromanaging them. I don’t tell my mechanic what materials to use, for example, they are the expert. That said, if there are some specific areas you want something you should be able to ask for it but perhaps it’s the way you are asking. Assuming you have a cost plus contract and it’s in your contract you will be seeing invoices. You could ask to see the quotes too that in theory itemize what’s in the quote. But again it depends on how you do this.

WestCoast,

Is it common for contractors to offer cost plus contracts these days?

BTW, the guy signing the check is always the boss. This applies to everything in life.

Thanks.

Cost plus is likely more common now as it would mean unexpected cost increases go to homeowner. Fixed price would mean builder eats the cost. And the guy signing the check is not always the boss nor do they hold all the cards. If you get a quote and then it costs more as long as you are told it’s changing and why you will still be paying. Nothing is guaranteed in a renovations and it sounds a bit like you have a very black/white view of things that may not serve you well. You deserve to be communicated with, given a heads up over changes in costs and products, and to have a good sense of where it’s all going. But you also need to communicate well, without acting like you are boss who may withhold payments and micromanage the workers. Be cautious.

I've just read through this thread and, as a GC who works closely with an independent architect (ie technically not 'design build" but a close enough facsimile as we almost always work together), I have a few observations to make.

First, OP mentioned he is in a high-priced summer home area with "multi multi million dollar" homes. This pretty much puts paid to the notion that his 18x18 addition could be built for $200 psf ($65,000). I can assure him that this could easily be less than the material costs alone for a fully finished addition, depending on finishes (even in a lower CoL area). The $500 psf that he thinks is excessive ($162,000) is probably a believable estimate, especially for a small addition like this.

The OP also wonders why he is getting quotes of "$500/SF from one firm and $200/SF from another." He may be right that some contractors are just being greedy, charging as much as they dare in an unstable environment. I think part of it is just laziness too. All good contractors are extremely busy - so who wants to invest a whole lot of time creating a detailed proposal for a job they might not get. So just throw some fat number out there in the expectation that 99% of potential clients will say no, but 1% might say yes. I admit I am guilty of doing this when the project doesn't seem very compelling (ie too much like others I've done before) and I've already got a solid book of work. I'm not being greedy - just too unmotivated to invest the time to pursue a project that doesn't particularly interest me.

The OP also wonders why the contractors he has contacted object to the client making specific materials recommendations. I certainly don't mind clients doing this when it comes to finishing material selections (which are always set out in allowances anyway), but when potential clients do this in respect of basic construction materials it sets off my "spidey sense" that this person is a bit of a know-it-all and potentially difficult to work with (no offense intended to the OP, I'm sure he's a fine fellow. But still...spidey sense tingling).

My final observation is that - for me anyway - the fixed-price contract is still viable, even in the current inflationary era. I've never done cost-plus - the main reason being I would never hire anyone myself on that basis. I always want to have a reasonable idea as to what the final cost of a project or task will be and I feel my clients deserve this. I've somehow managed to keep my project margins reasonably stable through the covid era, despite the high inflation we're living through.

"getting quotes of "$500/SF from one firm and $200/SF from another.""

No one is giving him quotes for that. he backed in to the $500 dollars using math (from his $162K quote) and the $200 was an architect spit balling and won't put that in writing.

It seems to me that if you want total control of the build (ie, you are the "boss"), and that you think this addition is very basic, and that your first instinct is to believe that builders and GCs are screwing you over on price, and that you have very specific building requirements that are not being readily accommodated, you should just GC the build yourself. It will take more time and research, but at least you will in theory get everything you want.

Quotes require design work. Which he is unwilling to pay for. He isn't willing to sign on a GC as a consultant either. He is getting brush off guesses, based on nothing but thin air.

The statement that the guy paying the bills is always the boss is true, in the large sense. But, since slavery is outlawed, the boss must find someone who is willing to work for the wages offered. You seem to be wanting high quality but wanting to pay for the low side of average. Right now, contractors are in a seller's market, and don't need to expend the extra effort to deal with a difficult customer.

If you wish to be closely involved with material selection and other aspects of the project, you will need to wait for the next buyer's market for contractors. If you wish to proceed in the current market, you will have to accept the current situation or choose a provider outside the central zone. You might find a contractor wanting to start his own business or someone semi retired willing to work with you but you will be accepting a higher risk that the project will go south. IOW, if you don't want to pay the PITA Premium on your project, don't be a difficult customer.

The statement that the guy paying the bills is always the boss is true, in the large sense. But, since slavery is outlawed, the boss must find someone who is willing to work for the wages offered. You seem to be wanting high quality but wanting to pay for the low side of average. Right now, contractors are in a seller's market, and don't need to expend the extra effort to deal with a difficult customer.

If you wish to be closely involved with material selection and other aspects of the project, you will need to wait for the next buyer's market for contractors. If you wish to proceed in the current market, you will have to accept the current situation or choose a provider outside the central zone. You might find a contractor wanting to start his own business or someone semi retired willing to work with you but you will be accepting a higher risk that the project will go south. IOW, if you don't want to pay the PITA Premium on your project, don't be a difficult customer.

"The guy signing the check is always the boss."

"Cash is king"

"The contract rules."

There are thousands of these little witticisms that aren't worth the time it takes to read them. In reality it is a complicated and nuanced world and it is OK to let things be complicated and nuanced.

I will add one to the list that I think should get special consideration when trying to find someone to remodel or build a home... "knowledge is power." You and your contractor enjoy asymmetric information... which is a fancy way of saying that your contractor knows so much more about building a home than you do, that it is virtually impossible to weight the contract/project in your favor. The best you can hope for is a project that is mutually beneficial.

The OP has decided to take a somewhat adversarial stance here, which I am certainly no stranger to. However, I would suggest that you leave that particular attitude here. Certainly, look for a contractor/designer that you feel comfortable with and you feel understands your vision, but don't start that crap where you are trying to show them who is boss, because it isn't likely to turn out in your favor.

Circling back to this...

My way of thinking about the cost per SF for a home addition has evolved somewhat in recent days.

I'm now going to consider cost/SF to build atop a foundation and not outright cost/SF.

Meaning, I will take the cost of the dirt work and the foundation into consideration as "Part A" of the project and add to it (cost/SF x SF) as "Part B" of the project.

I feel that this is a more...fair way of looking at an addition (as opposed to a new build).

Curious as to what some thoughts are on this.

Thanks.

The OP seems to have a very committed point of view, for which he seems to be looking for confirmation.

Unfortunately, in the real world of residential construction there are so many ways that "estimates" can be meaningless, even with a signed contract--change orders, for example. In the case of design-build, often the actual design costs are buried and simply added back to the construction budget. Many consumers think they are getting a great deal--free, or very low cost design fees, when in actual fact these costs are simply added to the construction contract, but not itemized.

The very best approach is to find and use an architect and a builder who are respected and trusted. The next very best approach is to understand the various types of construction contracts, and to choose the one best suited for the situation.

Knowledge is power, and in many cases the consumer is the one with the least knowledge. Good luck!

Mike I hope it all works out for you and that you end up with the home you want and at a cost you can tolerate.

I guess if you want to really be able to compare apples to apples, you could take the site conditions out of the equation and get a somewhat more level comparison of the cost of an addition for two different lots, assuming you can easily separate those costs for both projects. (This is equally true for new builds--the same house will involve different costs if you put it on a flat graded lot than if you stick it on a hillside.) Even then, you'd need to be sure the two projects you were comparing had similar designs, finishes, construction styles, etc.--those are all things that are going to influence cost per SF too. Really the best/only way to truly compare is to get good plans drawn up with specifications for exactly what you want, and then get lots of written bids that are for the same project on the same lot. There are far too many variables in play otherwise (including not only the site conditions for your particular project, but also how busy contractors are at a given time--you'll get higher bids when they are busy than when they're slow, so you can't compare a project today to a similar project done a year ago). In your case I think you'll be best served by having an architect do your plans (or if you feel like you already know what you want, just pay a drafter to draw up plans for you) and then send it out to local contractors for bids.