Have you looked at inset doors in real life?

Yes. I’m not interested in inset doors. I prefer the look of full overlay but only when the space between door/drawers is 1/8”.

You want high end full custom cabinets. And you have to have pinpoint control of your interior humidity in order to have those tight tolerances. No open windows ever. Always use a humidifier in winter. Always use AC and a dehumidifier in summer. Always humidity between 35-55%. That will be a whole new HVAC system for most older homes.

Thank you for the responses. I hope some others will weigh in as I’m getting mixed feedback. Some say this look is only available with full custom cabinets and some say it’s just full overlay and can be accomplished with most cabinet brands.

I refaced my kitchen with full overlay doors. My drawer spacing is probably not what you’re looking for. You need to request what you want with different cabinet companies, but it’s possible you’re looking for custom.

Strawberry Patch Designs, thanks for the great info. What you’re saying makes sense. I live in TN so there is some humidity but we never have our windows open and we do run heat in colder months and a/c in cooler months. Our house sits over a crawl space which is encapsulated and we have a dehumidifier in that area that keeps the crawl space to the desired humidity but I have no idea if that translates to the main
Level of the house where the kitchen is located. I guess I should get a monitor and at least check to know more about what I’m dealing with. It sounds like what you’re saying is even with the humidity fairly under control, it’s better to go with a more stable door/drawer material if I want tight overlays. Is that correct?

The standard overlay for full overlay is 1/8” of frame per door. So that is 1/4” between doors (which is the same gap for framelss). Some custom makers will do 3/32“ of frame so you can shave off 1/16” between doors. I am sure manufacturers also use 3/32”, but I don’t know who. Some will also do bigger because it is easier.

You can get that down to 1/16” of frame for a 1/8” gap, but that is going to be finicky and most cabinetmakers will be reluctant to do that. Wood movement is not going to be a big problem with cope and stick. Even a dynamic wood is going to move maybe 1/50” across 5” of rails and stiles.

However, remember you are probably still going to have to deal with filler pieces.

I have an L shaped kitchen with doorways on both ends of L. I know I’ll have to have a center filler piece but after that I was hoping to butt cabinets together one after the other and wherever I end near the doorways would be fine. I understand I have to be within an inch or two of where I want to land on the walls but I figured I have some play there since my cabinets aren’t ending next to a wall or anything.

I have "full-overlay," The gaps between my doors and drawers are pretty wide. You have to keep looking until you find a cabinet maker that makes a full-overlay that meets your minimal-gap requirement. Keep in mind that your layout might require extended stiles next to your refrigerator surround because the surround is deeper than the cabinets next to the surround. I have extended stiles next to my refrigertor to accommodate door hardware. In areas where the door hardware clears the front of the surround, no stile is used. You can put a filler overlay over your corner filler so that you don't have a recess between your doors and drawers.

I also think that the original photo has been over exposed just a bit, making the gaps appear washed out and smaller than they really are.

OK so you have the requirement of FULL OVERLAY FOR THE DOORS. The gap between doors offers installers the ability to adjust the door/drawer face up or down and side to side, after the cabinet boxes have been installed in the event that everything in your room is not completely square.

The next determining criterion is FRAME OR FRAMELESS cabinets.

I prefer the frameless myself along with drawers that have full - extension glides

I selected full extension for my kitchen but my cabinets from IKEA also offered the interior that you see below that's from a Swiss manufacturer. I didn't want wood for the interior of my drawers. I much prefer this for cleanability.

I have Ikea cabinets all over in my house and all fulloverly and not one set with spaces bigger than 1/8" so not sure what you have been looking at .Frameless cabinets are IMO a must for the look you want.

IKEA. Frameless cabinets are the only way to get the look you want. The designers will make sure you get a layout that works perfectly for your kitchen. I used their Traemond contacted installers - they really know what they’re doing, and custom- fitted some of the cabinets to fit the constraints of my space. Highly recommend!!! Everyone is in love with my kitchen. And, the Sektion cabinets come with high-end Blum hardware

IKEA reduces all doors and drawers by 1/8”. So their 15” x 30” door is actually 14 7/8” x 29 7/8”. their 3 drawer stack has a 5”, 10”, and 15” drawers all are 1/8” short. So they have a 1/8” gap.

IKEA also has a problem with doors and drawers bumping each other and that is not covered under the warranty. Which is not to say that every install will have that problem and so long as you adjust your doors and tighten hinges immediately it is fine. However, it is one of the common complaints.

I thought I wanted frameless cabinets until I read some reviews about them not being as strong as framed cabinets. I realize everything is based on the materials used to build the box but I’m just not sure if I’m qualified to know what to look for. I have purchased & installed IKEA cabinets and I think they’re a great product and can really be dressed up with doors and drawers ordered from many places online such as Semihandmade, Barker, RTA Cabinets, etc. but I’m not a fan of their drawer boxes. One of my favorite kitchens on Instagram the homeowner used IKEA boxes and doors/drawers from AllStyleRetrofit. Here’s a photo. See those tight spaces between the doors and drawers. I guess my question is, what semi-custom brand can match this look?

First, there isn't really a difference between full overlay doors and frameless doors. I can stick any full overlay door on a frameless cabinet and vice versa, so you don't "need" frameless or framed.

Next, let's try to understand why you are struggling to find what you want. The reason that manufacturers don't do tight gaps has little to do with wood movement and little to do with installation on uneven floors and walls. It is because of shipping costs. If you grab a cabinet by the top of one side (the way cabinets are often handled) and drop it from six inches in height it is probably going to shift out of square. This is just physics and it is incredibly difficult to engineer your way past that. The tighter the gaps are, the less forgiving cabinets are of shipping and handling damage. This is not a big problem, because there are still inset cabinets, but this is why inset cabinets are often more expensive, they just cost extra to ship.

There simply isn't that much profit in tighter tolerances and extra shipping protection for full overlay cabinets. RTA cabinets, such as IKEA, avoid this problem because cabinets are not assembled until after shipping.

I don't know of a specific brand that is shipping full overlay cabinets with the tolerances of inset cabinets, but it sounds reasonable that some high quality cabinets would do so.

Finally, the strength thing is likely a misconception or an immaterial difference. The face frames on framed cabinets provide a lot of strength, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be stronger as face frame cabinetry regularly uses thinner sheet goods and smaller stretchers. Still all things being equal, it will be stronger... than you need.

Cabinets are a system. Once your cabinets are attached to your house and ganged together they are much stronger than the individual cabinet box, and frameless cabinets that are properly installed are much stronger than you need cabinets to be. The only exception to this might be attempting to use a single frameless cabinet as a small island. I would personally reinforce a single cabinet or even two used for an island.

While I am all about getting the details right, and the discussions about doing so on Houzz, I can't fathom the hand-wringing here. @Pam Denton, you should get frameless cabinets from a good cabinet company to get the look you want. They don't have to be Ikea. There are plenty of good cabinet companies making frameless kitchen cabinets. And semi-custom will be sufficient. That sums it up.

Instead of spending time on this forum, use that time instead to put in some legwork searching for cabinet companies. There may be local cabinet companies, or it may be a larger company like Shiloh can give you what you want. Take the time to visit showrooms, talk to people not spend time in the weeds on Houzz.

The idea that frameless cabinets are not as strong is from grumpy wizened old guys who haven't changed their thinking in 40 years and are incapable of doing so. The strength of kitchen cabinets do not come from whether they are framed or frameless. You can get sh--y framed cabinets that are bowing in a year or so. Just cause they're framed doesn't mean they are stronger and just cause they're frameless doesn't mean they are weaker. In your cabinet search, you are "putting the emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble" as Mike Myers said.

- From a home that has 20-year-old frameless cabinets, semi-custom, that still look new.

I have full overlay, 1/8" gap (I just measured it), all custom frameless. Did it five years ago, cost a lot. Today, twice a lot. No bumping into each other. Push to open, no hardware. Don't know if that makes a difference or not.

@bry911, awesome information! Thank you so much!! It never even entered my mind to think about shipping.

@RoyHobbs I’ve been to 3 local cabinet showrooms, talked to a Home Depot kitchen rep, met with 2 custom cabinet guys and only once have I seen cabinets with the 1/8” spacing. One of the custom guys said he could provide the look I want but only with frameless cabinets but he ordered his doors and drawers from a different vendor and they didn’t offer the door style I want. The one showroom where I did find the 1/8” spacing has since closed for business. I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t do my research locally and ask for advise from this forum. Isn’t that what it’s for?

@tozmo1 the price of going custom was the reason I was hoping for a semi-custom brand that could give me the same look for a little less. I know I can get this look going the custom route, I was just hoping to spend a little less.

Geez I hate when someone brings out that tired old comment about frameless not as strong as frame cabinets. What exactly are we supporting with kitchen cabinets? Elephants? Hippos? Mostly just the countertops so that argument is bogus.

• Frameless cabinets offer more accessibility verses framed cabinets. This is due to the fact that there is not an inside edge of a frame projecting into the cabinet opening. This allows an easier access to the cabinet interior as well as a larger opening to store plates, platters and cookware.

The orange frame below is the stiles. Having stiles in framed cabinets often limit your ability to store appliances and pots and pans.

Beverly, I like a frameless cabinet for the exact reasons you mention but there are quite a few comments about them not being as strong but as I mentioned I’m sure it’s all depends on the materials used. The custom guy I talked to went from 1/2” plywood sides to 3/4” plywood sides when he said he could give me the look I wanted with a frameless box. It’s not just the weight on top of the cabinets. Like Bry911 mentioned above, framed cabinets usually hold up better during shipping because the frames add strength. The hardware that would also be mounted differently, on framed cabinets it’s in the hardwood frame, on frameless it would be in the side of the box, probably plywood but maybe MDF or particle board depending on the quality of the cabinet. I think all of these are things to consider when you’re paying a small fortune for kitchen cabinets.

Frameless cabinets offer more accessibility verses framed cabinets.

This is also an exaggerated benefit. Framed cabinetry often uses thinner cases and so while you lose opening width, you gain interior space. The benefit of frameless increases with drawers but still have to deal with fillers.

Inset cabinets, which are framed cabinets, can often provide more access as they don’t require fillers.

In reality, few kitchens will actually benefit enough from the extra space and accessibility of frameless cabinets for that to be the deciding factor. It is certainly something to consider, but it should probably be a pretty small consideration.

Respectfully, I think you are letting the tail wag the dog here.

If you like frameless then go with frameless. Is there some compelling reason that you need extra strength cabinets? My shop cabinets, which take far more abuse than any residential kitchen is ever going to, are frameless. I am constantly flipping several hundred pound slabs or chucking 3/4" sheet goods up on my cabinets, whacking at them with a mallet, etc. You are establishing a quality hurdle that is likely just detrimental to your project.

This is largely a problem with perspective. Framed cabinetry is stronger, but I didn't say that face frame cabinets resist shipping damage better. I said that tighter tolerances are more expensive to ship (on face frame or frameless). So 1/8" gaps are more expensive to ship than 1/4" gaps, but every cabinet manufacturer who is shipping those cabinets has found a way to mitigate that. In other words, there should be absolutely no difference in quality once it is installed in your kitchen.

Let me try to put this into perspective for you, there will likely be some way that a framed cabinet can be handled and not be damaged while that same handling will damage a frameless cabinet. But it is unlikely that your cabinets will even see that type of handling and even more unlikely that your cabinets would be installed with that type of damage. So, you are essentially worried about a rather small chance that you will have to delay the install as you have a damaged cabinet remade. Don't forget that this is only one of a hundred reasons that you might have to delay your install for a shipping and handling problem with it.

---

I personally would never let the strength of framed vs. frameless even enter my decision.

J&K is known to have tighter reveals than average framed full overlay:

@bry911, I’m not opposed to frameless, I’m not opposed to framed. I don’t need extra strength cabinets but I also don’t want crappy cabinets or cabinets that aren’t going to function well over time. I don’t know a lot about cabinets, I’m just trying to learn and understand the advantages and disadvantages of all my options. Isn’t that why people come to this forum? To learn and get advise from people who are more experienced?Sorry that I misrepresented your comment.

Joseph Babcock, if that’s a photo of your kitchen, it’s beautiful! I’ve never heard of J&K, is that the cabinet manufacturer name or does that stand for something else?

@Pam Denton - Isn’t that why people come to this forum? To learn and get advise from people who are more experienced?

Why do you think I responded to your post? My hope was to bring perspective as you have brought up the strength of framed cabinets several times. I am not trying to make you feel bad or that you have done anything wrong, I really feel the pro's here lose perspective quite often and certainly someone who is not a pro can also lose perspective.

I think it is beneficial to think of the quality, along with the strength and durability, that you need, rather than thinking about high quality and low quality. There are a lot of cabinet brands that would not be considered high quality, but will still outlast the kitchen itself in most homes. I just pulled out 15 year old builder grade cabinets that look almost as good as the day they were installed. Had these cabinets been the highest quality available, I still would have pulled them out, because the configuration just wasn't working. I suspect that most kitchen remodels happen for the same reason and paying for quality, durability, or strength in excess of what you need is a bit wasteful.

I realize that is a hard target to hit, and it is fine if you overshoot it. I am just encouraging you to take all the advice that "X is the best" with a grain of salt and think about your needs.

J&K is a cabinet brand; the picture is from the vendor.

J & K cabinets are a brand made in China. They are surprising well made for their price. I used them in a laundry room when my funds ran low after doing the kitchen and pantry all custom. They aren't distributed everywhere and sell only to contractors. The gap is 1/4" on my cabinets but when I was in their showroom last year I was told they had changed their construction slightly so not sure what the gap is on current cabinets. If you're doing white cabinets and there is a J & K showroom in your area that your contractor can access, you should check with them for specifics.

Compare J&K to IKEA I am not a fan of anything from IKEA But maybe cabinets are good quality.

I have been using IKea cabinets in my kitchen designs for 22+ yrs and in all that time had one warranty issue solved in store in less than 1/2 hr. Frameless cabinets are just as stron as framed and provide much better inside storage. Ikeas hanging system is very strong and I hve never found an issue with storing whatever I wanted in any of their cabinets or drawers.

@bry911, I’m trying to do exactly what you suggest. I appreciate you sharing your experience and opinions, I have learned some things from this thread which is a good thing.

Thanks everyone! I’ll research J&K and I believe the other line mentioned was Shiloh and see what they offer. I appreciate all the help.

If you want this look, you will need frameless cabinets. I ordered custom ready to assemble frameless cabinets from Scherr's RTA. The cabinets were every bit as strong as any other cabinets available. Because they were from Scherr's they were totally custom. I loved them and enjoyed putting them together as a family project. You can get any door you want and any finish you desire. I chose painted and they have held up well. I hired a kitchen designer to help me with the layout and to put it into a CAD file, I selected my doors and finish, Scherr's took it from there.

Here is a link to my journey with pictures. Here is the final Kitchen Reveal

@Patricia Colwell Consulting Frameless cabinets are just as stron[g] as framed and provide much better inside storage.

I realize that it may seem like I am nitpicking, but the above statement is not really correct. This is just physics... an I beam is stronger than a comparable flat beam. From a physics standpoint this is what is happening with face frames. Each face frame is typically 1.25", which is mechanically bound to the plywood and so it will increase the modulus of rupture and the bending moment of the plywood... always.

Frameless cabinets are stronger than they need to be. We could easily build cabinets out of 1/2" plate steel welded together and they would be much stronger. In fact, they would be much stronger than the entire house, but that all that strength would be wasted. I guess after a tornado destroys your house you could stand in your undamaged kitchen and enjoy the new very open concept, but again that seems like you paid for something that you will never need. Which is a fine argument to make here.

This is largely semantics until someone dismisses all your advice because of a largely irrelevant point. I think most of what you are saying is great advice.

Most of the internet propbganda about framed cabinets being "superior" is from companies that do not sell frameless. It's the same source that rates the cabinets that they sell above any other actually equivalent cabinets. And rates the same exact cabinets, with different ratings. Take any of that BS with a salt shaker.

Frameless is a wonderful choice for many things. It is exclusively used in the rest of the world, and you never see stores of disaster where the cabinets just wholesale collapsed. That's just silly to imply. They are engineered to carry loads as a system, and will carry heavier loads than some entry level framed with 3/8" sides and plywood faceframes covered with virtual contact paper. AKA mobile home cabinets. As horribly built as those are, they don't collapse under standard use either.

Cabinets as a whole, framed or frameless, are over engineered for the task that they perform.

Choose the cabinets more for the number of options that they offer, the finish quality that they offer, the reputation that the cabinet company has, and the compatibility of the cabinet seller with you and your designer. Just do not mistake a cabinet seller for a kitchen designer. They do not offer the same services or project assistance.

The Ikea drawer seems to be your sticking compromise point. Accept that and you save money over the custom path.

You are focused on a lot of the wrong things. The difference in cabinet wear comes down to the finish, and how you treat it. That is what looks shabby and awful if you don’t take care of it. The boxes of 70 year old site built cabinets with no backs will still be standing long after the doors are so covered in paint layers that they are inoperable.

@citrus, glad you know what I’m doing because I sure don’t. Lol!

I don’t really feel like I’m focused on one thing more than another. I just want a good product at a reasonable price. I’m trying to consider all things but I was attempting to respond to the comments in my post and that seems to have some of you thinking I’m laser focused on one particular aspect of cabinetry, I’m not.

My photos might help, I hope! My cabs are Kraftmaid frameless installed 1990 (note these ARE NOT the current KM frameless; KM stopped making frameless for several years but then began offering them again so I can't speak to current quality); they are semi-custom and at that time cost a staggering $11K, LOL.

They are melamine covered particleboard, but this is the old pboard: heavy and very solid. It is, honestly, better construction than the basic quality framed plywood bathroom cabinets I bought in 2003. The melamine is ALSO a better quality; an important consideration in a moisture-heavy environment like a kitchen. These days there is melamine so crappy a quality that a green scrubbie takes the finish off (ask me how I know this [grin]).

The 1989 melamine can take a surprising amount of moisture. I have put dishes away - not soaking wet, but definitely still with a lot of drips/drops on them, without any problems. The interiors are in the same condition despite 33 yrs of very hard usage. Shelf liners are unnecessary; everything comes off with a spritz of Windex.

An aside, which may or may not be important to you: we have a lot of windows but did not coat them with a sun-block film until 2003. UV radiation can really bleach wood, which is why I was reluctant to get wood doorstyles. The formica-paneled doors were much more resistant to fading; I have had to touch up the wood three times. Remember that the UV bleaching generally doesn't hit all the cabinets equally - another reason why I chose the formica fronts. On doors that are only briefly touched by sun, the wood edging has remained in perfect condition with no color changes. But the edging that gets 3-4 hrs of full CA sun every day - yup, it bleaches out.

Anyway, here we have:

Above: Overall shot (sorry for the slightly out of focus fuzziness): I measured the gaps; all are 1/4" or less, whether between doors or between drawers. Humidity tends to be fairly constant in the San Francisco Bay Area so I can't speak to whether they would rub against one another in very humid air.

Above: Base cab (also shown in first photo, to the right of the stove): 29" wide, note the stile for support. Slightly less than 1/4" gap between doors. There was a second shelf; I simply didn't need it. Shelves are adjustable at 1" intervals.

Above: Spice pullout, non-adjustable shelves. The two corner units on the wall where the range is, are both corner units with double Lazy Susans - heavy plastic trays with 2" lip, non-adjustable, solid bottoms (not wire, IOW).

Above: double pantry (each 24" wide, 7' tall, used as room divider: Regular shelving (adjustable) on top; 1 upper shelf and 4 pull-out shelves below. All shelves are rated for up to 75 pounds per shelf.

DO NOTE that the wide spacing of the hardware for the pantry pull-outs is because they, too, are adjustable in height. Pullouts on fixed shelves can screw the H/W underneath into the shelf, but in order to make these customizable, KM chose to use screw-in side mounting H/W.

Above: regular drawer, pulled out: As you can see, there is little wasted space with the regular drawer H/W.

Be aware that 'back in the days', these cabinets all came with two fully finished sides, and uppers had finished bottoms as well. I believe nowadays these are often 'options'.

So, hope these photos give you an idea of spacing and gaps!

@jakkom, thanks for the write up and all the photos! I currently have a kitchen installed in 1991 and it doesn’t look half as good. Yours has really held up well. Mine are painted cream and after 30 odd years there isn’t a single one that’s the same color. The drawers don’t go in and out easily, the doors are wanting to fall off, I’ve had to repair several drawer bottoms that were falling off and I’ve had to put magnets on the doors to keep them closed. Fun times!

@homechef59, i just had the time to read through the post you linked and i so enjoyed reading all about your jorney to a new kitchen. Your kitchen is beautiful and the amount of detail you provide on the process was so helpful. I’m so impressed! Thank you for sharing!!

@homechef59 absolutely perfect! Love everything about your kitchen. I can tell a lot of thought went into this reno.

We are ordering Merrillat semi-custom cabinets. Their Masterpiece line is frameless (adding picture from their website). Fun fact - cherry is more expensive than maple but stained is cheaper than painted. If you work with them, make sure you get relative costs of different door styles. Some are more cost effective and very similar to other more expensive designs.

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-75u0aa/product_images/uploaded_images/mm-ab9d-ab9c-e80d-d78c-rs-001-2-.jpg?t=1610475740

Picture

Thank you, Jill Tumm. That pricing is strange. I'll check them out. Are you ordering directly from the company or is the line only sold through cabinet showrooms?

Jill, I see a dealer in my area so I'm guessing that's the only way to purchase. I'll go take a look soon. Thanks for the info.