Software
Houzz Logo Print
alisonsparks10

Are we being unreasonable? Feedback on subcontractor please!!

3 years ago

As part of our condo remodel, a big-reputation (local) tile & floor company was hired for our bath, carpet and hardwood floors. We've had nothing but "misses" along the way with them, and now we are facing a huge hardwood floor dilemma.

I am looking to understand whether we are being unreasonable in what we might expect from them now. Can you please offer perspective? (I have a long version and a longer version depending on how much you can read):

  • 2005 condo, built with original orangey solid maple hardwood, window/baseboard trim and doors
  • Floors were original, scratched, and bleached out when we purchased in 2020; hardwood runs throughout foyer/hallway/powder room/DR and LR -- with the exception of a large 12x12 inset carpet square where tacks have started to push through, etc.
  • We hated the carpet inset -- and asked for advice as part of remodel process. Flooring company (and interior decorator) suggested replacing carpet square by adding new maple and 'feathering' it in to match....much less costly, we were told, then putting in all new hardwood. Also suggested we replace small section of rotted floor in powder room. Clear coat seal.
  • We don't like maple or the orange color of existing floor, but didn't feel we could bite off an entire hardwood floor at this point. They assured us this wouldn't be necessary. We were amazed and thrilled that this could be done
  • Before proposal was signed after two walk throughs- initial sales person, and then flooring expert who again explained the process. We wre assured that no one outside of us would ever notice the difference was there. Cost estimate =$10K.

Entire project begins; whole 1st floor remodel, basically down to studs in all rooms. We rented an apartment; paid to move out, and put furnishings in storage.

  • Hardwood process begins; new maple flooring acclimated and laid, clear-coat seal follows.
  • Difference is signficant and unacceptable.



  • GC is upset, and calls flooring subcontractor -- they are horrified, agree, and promise to "make it right."
  • After several experts confer, they decide our original maple floor was Peshtigo River Cherry ("PC"); they jump through hoops to get in a new batch of PC, and we begin the process again.
  • Expert pulls a small sample board, treats with sealant, and GC, expert, and we all agree, while a bit darker, it looks promising. 2nd floor-laying process proceeds.
  • Seal is put down, and while the powder bath is a bit closer (difference in natural lighting?), the LR/DR difference is still significant. EVERYONE reluctantly agrees that it's just not right and experts are scratching their heads. We are devastated.




  • Fast forward: Meeting of GC, sales person, Floor expert, interior designer, and us. Expert suggests that maybe they could try staining to get them closer...but that maple is difficult to stain (and acknowledges that the color variations we're seeing in PC vs. original won't look alike).
  • Everyone seems worried about losing more time (this process has taken 3 weeks and we still have no floor) and after discussion, we agree that ALL new floor (replacing all 800sqft of hardwood) is best solution.
  • If we're going to start from scratch with all new floors, then we don't want orangey maple again. So we spend a day conferring on wood samples with sales person and expert-- white oak= durable with staining versatility to help 'fit' with existing orangey-trim and doors.

Here's where I need your perspective:

After back-and-forth, flooring company currently acknowledges that

a) the floor isn't "right";

b) an entire floor of our new white oak selection if we walked in off-the-street would cost $15K (50% more than we had originally intended for this project);

BUT, they are proposing that we need to pay them $20K (2x more than we budgeted) because

a) we owe them for the first $10K (their original estimate for the match job) plus an additonal $10K that they are going to charge us to install the floor "at cost."

b) they point to the fact that they ate the cost of the second (botched PC) floors, and that we "approved" the sample of replacment PC cherry before they laid it.


We feel that paying them a full $15K to install a full floor as if we were a brand new customer is more than generous...and that we should not have to pay them for anything related to the prior efforts. We did not change our mind... we did not "cause" the mistakes ...we followed their advice every step of the way! (And we were pleasant and calm along the way!) In short --they promised something that they could not deliver. We acknowledge they did *try* in good faith to remedy the problem. But we still have no suitable floor!


You can stop reading here and offer opinions, but there is even MORE if you have the stomach and time to keep reading:


This same company has had 4 misses on our main bathroom tile project, costing us time and money as follows:

1) Original large format and accent tile were selected. I read something on Houzz about steam-shower appropriate accent tile. I asked the sales person if our selection was rated for steam showers. After 3-4 days of silence, the answer is no... but that I shouldn't worry about it because they "do this all the time and have never had a problem". I resist, and he suggests I should consider changing our design and just put accent tile in the non-visbile niches so if it fails (because Daltile & his company won't guarantee it), that's all we'll have to worry about tearing out and replacing! Needless to say, I chose a different accent tile....

2) All tile (large format and new replacement accent tile) is ordered. 3 months later, and 2 days after it's due in, salesperson calls and says he's learned it never made the production run and is back-ordered now 12 weeks. This will blow our entire timeline. I spend 2 days trying to find steam-rated tile that matches all my other previously selected finishes. I don't like it nearly as well, but the order goes in.

3) Tile person begins laying out large format tile (1 color for long back wall; 1 color for the 2 end walls). Salesperson sold us colors from 2 manufacturers, and size (cutting) between the 2 is slightly different. Grout lines will not match (end walls with long wall), and tile layer says he can't fudge it enough to mask. Back to store we go to frantically find another large format tile that matches. New large format tile in compatible color is ordered. Tile person has to wait 2 weeks for arrival.

4) Large format tile is installed (looks great!). Begin cutting 2nd-choice accent tile, and it keeps chipping. Supposedly requires special cutting technique? Salesperson springs this on us the same day we're all at the condo conferring about the botched floor. He suggests he can continue to send tile layer how-to videos (with no guarantees), OR we can select a new accent tile-- and he has brought 9-10 selections along with him!


I never liked the forced-substitute accent tile anyway, our interior decorator is present to confer, once again, timelines are being held up, so we select a new accent tile. Tile is ordered ...and now we wait.


That's where we currently stand. Meanwhile, as this company has slowed the timeline, other subs have juggled and jumped up to accommodate where possible -- moving up cabinet install, lighting prep/install, etc). Every day and every trip/phone call to 'fix' things costs my husband and I time & money-- e.g., interior decorator consult fees, monthly apartment and furniture rental, storage fees, gas/time to & from show room, etc.


What's your perspective on what we should be expecting to pay for the new hardwood floors if we decide we have to stay with this subcontractor? Any/all constructive feedback welcomed --especially appreciated from pros!


Comments (15)

  • PRO
    3 years ago

    After the new maple was installed, did they refinish all the floors -- sanding and clear coating?

    Maple changes color with age and new will never match old. Anyone doing hardwood flooring should know that.

    Alison thanked PPF.
  • 3 years ago

    I didn't read about the tile part, so I can't help with that but a few points on the hardwood flooring part.


    First, you might consider just cutting to the chase and getting an attorney involved now, because being right and getting them to see that you are right might take the intervention of a professional. Note: I am not saying sue anyone just let an attorney spell out why your demands are reasonable.

    Some specific points. The flooring company has a duty to mitigate damages. The moment the flooring company knew, or reasonably should have known, that the floors were not going to match they should have stopped work. Furthermore, it is their job to know that the floors are not going to match so they will struggle to use ignorance as an excuse.

    Your approval of a sample doesn't mitigate their duty. So long as they knew matching was a requirement then they need to get an acceptable match. Your approval of a color before it is installed doesn't mean that you have removed that duty.

    In short, I believe you are in the right and they need to eat their mistake... However, I am not sure it worth the fight.

    Alison thanked bry911
  • 3 years ago

    PPF-- yes, they sanded both sections (new & old) and clear seal-coated both. Ironically, before they seal coated, the 2 sections were closer in color (though still not a match). Thank you for responding.

  • 3 years ago

    Alison, I'm not a pro and I will defer to their recommendations, but let me bring up two points 1- what does your contract say? 2- post pandemic supply and demand issues continue to wreak havoc in the construction industry, from what my contractor neighbor says, so that needs to be taken into account.

    Alison thanked Jenny
  • 3 years ago

    Jenny, thanks for responding. Can you elaborate a bit on the post pandemic comment (or give an example) of how you might see that play out in how we shape our expectations of responsibility and cost- share? Thank you!

  • PRO
    3 years ago

    I’ve read through all of it ( floor and tile drama) and all I can say is sorry, what a pain. They clearly aren’t giving good advice and I’m on team you pay the new 15k not 20

    Alison thanked HALLETT & Co.
  • 3 years ago

    I’m on team 15K too. As you say, the previous work that has to be replaced was all part of their professional recommendation and execution. It’s not like you insisted on using a specific species of wood despite their warnings, or demanded a course of action they recommended against. Their undertaking the work implies that they believed they could achieve a good match and a satisfactory outcome, which they failed to deliver. That’s on them, the flooring professionals, not on you. You wanted one cohesive, satisfactorily completed floor, and that’s what you should pay for: one floor.

    Alison thanked Alyssa Fernandez
  • 3 years ago

    I agree on the 15,000 too.

    Alison thanked cat_ky
  • PRO
    3 years ago

    Every education has a cost! They set incorrect expectations about aged wood vs new wood. Now, they are likely learning to have a disclaimer in their contract that aged will not match new. Rather than exploring the options that would give them a better result.

    Alison thanked Strawberry Patch Designs
  • PRO
    3 years ago

    IMO the first mistake was the flooring people not realizing it was not maple that is their job . As for the next phase I am not sure who made the mistakes bit old fllors often are not the same as new wflooring the wood is different after years of growth even from the same tree. I think th option to go darker to blend would have been the obvious compromise not sure why that was not discussed. The steam shower is a whole different thing not even the same contractors. Usually chipping tiles is caused by the wrong saw blade being used or a dull one. Since I have no idea what tile I can't comment but steam showers are a big deal to get right and no you do not fix a leaking niche down the road . Is this even the same GC overseeing both these issues?

    Alison thanked Patricia Colwell Consulting
  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I don’t think this is an old wood problem. The condo was built in 2005 and we haven’t had significant changes in hardwood cultivation in the last twenty years.

    I am bad at identifying wood from pictures, but I suspect it is just a species identification problem.

    Alison thanked bry911
  • 3 years ago

    Alison, sorry to be slow to reply but I wanted to talk to my neighbor to be sure to speak correctly. The factors that are somewhat relevant are that products that used to be in stock are now taking 12-16 weeks or may be special order only; costs of a significant number of construction materials have increased 4x over pre-pandemic. So you or they being able to obtain acceptable replacement tile or flooring in a timely manner may be extremely difficult.

    As far as responsibility or cost-share, these are not relevant but the desire to find an acceptable solution now and not in three or four months is a lot more challenging than it used to be.

    Alison thanked Jenny
  • PRO
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Your old floors maybe hickory instead of maple, definitely not canadian hard maple. Which is what was used to match.


    GC, decorator and flooring expert misguided you. It's on their dime to make it right.

    Alison thanked G & S Floor Service
  • 3 years ago

    UPDATE: What an awesome Houzz community! Thank you to everyone who responded to my request. We had hoped to get a reality-check, ensuring that my husband and I weren't wedded to a perspective that was dismissive of factors we were blind to.


    Your collective responses offered the reassurance we needed; and --- the subcontractor finally agreed last night to honor the $15K for a new floor (white oak). While we can't understand why they chose to alienate what could have ultimately been satisfied customers, we are relieved to be moving forward and trust we'll be happy with the end product.

    Thank you all again for your time and counsel.