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Home inspection issue

16 years ago

We're selling our home and some issues came up electrically: the photos we received from the agent shows the ispector used a plug-in tester to find problems. We have three type of issues: missing grounds on a few outlets, hot and neutral wires reversed, and a doubl3e tap on the circuit panel. Are these simple fixes? thanks to any help offered.

Comments (24)

  • 16 years ago

    Generally - Yes - they are simple fixes.

    As the homeowner - you have a right to obtain a couple of books on home residential wiring - read up - and do these fixes yourself.

    Since your in the process of selling your home - the simplest, quickest, and raising no quality/safety/liability issues - would be to hire a reputable electrician.

    The above would probably be fixed fairly quickly, at not a huge expense.

    Missing grounds - several ways to fix. Hopefully a ground wire exists behind in box... If the house is older, and originally did not have grounded outlets - I believe a fix could be to restore the outlets to 'non grounded'. You are not required to bring up a house to current code to sell it. But you are not allowed to just insert 'grounded' outlets where no ground exists.

    Hot and netural wires reversed - is a serious problem. Assuming this is at the outlets - and not an actual wire run problem (wires screwed up at fuse/breaker box) - this takes about 1 minute to fix at each outlet affected. Just switch the hot and neutral around to the correct sides of the affected outlet.

    Doubletaped circuit panel - serious. Can indicate overloading, overcrowded Main panel. Need to add additional circuit breaker for each double tap in panel. This allows each circuit to have own breaker. Some panels allow 'thin line' breakers - where 'two' (it is ONE manufactured unit) breakers are physically manufactured to only take the space of 1 normal size breaker. This allows you to move the double tap wire to its own breaker - without having to move and route wires all over and about in the panel...

    btw: I am not a licensed electrician, and do not know NEC (nat. elect. code.) I do know and understand electrical stuff.

    AGAIN - I stongly recommend that you hire a reputable, licensed electrician to perform the above repairs. It will make the buyer feel much better, and will not be hugely expensive. If you do wish to do the above yourself - please remember to SHUT OFF the circuits when you are working on them. PLEASE read up on what you are doing, since I the above problems were caused by a homeowner who used to live (still is living??) in the house...

  • 16 years ago

    One thing to say is that home inspectors are dangerous in that they know only a little about everything. Yes every outlet that they flag should be checked, but there may or may not be anything wrong with them and the problem may be different than what they identify. The little neon bulbs in those testers can be fooled by open circuits.

    A "double tapped" is not a precise term. In some cases it's perfectly legitimate. It doesn't necessarily indicate anything is overloaded (though it may mean the wire was terminated wrong) and there can certainly be annoying overloads without any double tapping apparent.

  • 16 years ago

    If a circuit is not tripping the breaker it is not overloaded. Simply conencting two wires to a breaekr does not make a circuit overloaded.
    Double tapped usually means there are two wires on a breaker. Many breakers are rated to have two wires and this could be a non issue. The simple fix is the take the two wires off and nut them together with a short pigtail. Then put the pigtail on the breaker. Perfectly code compliant.
    Non grounded three prong receptacles can be legally installed if the receptacle is a GFCI or protected by GFCI upstream. This would only be necessary if old ungrounded wiring was present in the house. If the ground is present it should be connected.

  • 16 years ago

    For missing grounds, check and see if any ground is present and not connected.

    More likely a 3-prong receptacle has been used to replace a 2-prong.

    You can either find 2-prongs and swap them in, or use a GFCI receptacle with the little stickers in the box that say "no equipment ground."

  • 16 years ago

    It is interesting to note that a combination of receptacles with reverse and correct polarity work just fine and will not trip breakers. Recently worked on a place where that was the case. Went through all receptacles and switches and corrected polarity. The other part of this was the house had aluminum wiring with copper pigtails. Eliminated the pigtails and connented the aluminum directly to the special receptacles and switches for that purpose.

    Having two circuits on one breaker will get you a red tag in Dallas. Depending on the brand of the main panel, would replace a standard breaker with two slim lines.

    Don't quite know why some receptacles would be grounded and others not unles a remodel at some point resulted in a partial upgrade. The GFCI thing only works if you find the receptacle closest to the main panel so you protect everything down circuit. What really needs to be done is to pull out the offending receptacles to see if perhaps the grounds are inside the box. If not, replace them with two wire receptacles.

  • 16 years ago

    "One thing to say is that home inspectors are dangerous in that they know only a little about everything."

    Boy, ain't that the truth! I'm in the process of selling a house and had to suffer through a home inspection last week.

    Unfortunately, Inspector Clouseau Messr. L'Inspecteur did not and still does not understand the concept of one GFCI outlet protecting others downstream, so he gigged me for "no GFCI protection" on four outlets that were perfectly well-protected.

    I hated to do it but, after a brief pi$$ing match that went nowhere, I stopped by Home Despot, picked up 4 new GFCI receptacles for $60, rewired the feeds to the line side of the two primary GFCIs and slapped in the new ones.

    What a waste of money, time and energy. But sometimes, it's just easier and wiser to knuckle under and make the problem go away in order to remove a contingency in a $$$ sales contract.

    %^%$?%#^@%$*&!!

    [I almost had to install a second tempering valve in the potable hot water line from the furnace, too. The inspector expected the valve to be right at the top of the coil instead of four feet above the furnace as it is actually plumbed--in plain view. Fortunately, the buyer conceded that issue after I emailed a photo with a big bright red arrow pointing at the tempering valve. Sigh.]

  • 16 years ago

    "The GFCI thing only works if you find the receptacle closest to the main panel so you protect everything down circuit."

    Using a GFCI works fine without finding the closest receptacle to the feed, it just means you may need multiple GFCI receptacles on the branch circuit.

    Hook up the first one with feed on the line side and downstream on the load side, then go trip it off and see what is dead.

    You can move the GFCI around, or just use another one with only line connections (GFCIs should not be used in cascade with each other).

    The GFCI gets a "No equipment ground" sticker, and any receptacles downstream that ARE on the load side get both "No equipment ground" and "GFCI protected."

  • 16 years ago

    "Double tapped" is definitely not a precise term.

    I assumed it was used to mean two different circuit wires going to one breaker, and being attached at the breaker lug screw - on a breaker which was not rated for such attachment.

    "It doesn't necessarily indicate anything is overloaded..."
    "If a circuit is not tripping the breaker it is not overloaded. Simply connecting two wires to a breaker does not make a circuit overloaded."

    Never stated the breaker or circuit was overloaded. Stated that a double tapped circuit panel: "Can indicate overloading, overcrowded Main panel."

    I'll quote from "The complete guide to home wiring" (pg124):
    "Two wires connected to one single-pole breaker is a sign of an overcrowded panel and also a dangerous code violation unless the breaker is approved for such a connection."

    A main panel can be overloaded without any breakers tripping. "Double Tapping" or connecting two wires from different circuits to the same breaker - can indicate an overloaded or overcrowded panel.

    When you are doing a remodel or just adding additional circuits to a house; you should do a load evaluation of the panel. If your evaluation shows that the load exceeds the main service capacity - you must have an electrician upgrade the main service before you can install new wiring.

    Having double tapped breakers indicates the potential of having exceeded the safety factor of the main service panel's load bearing capacity. And you can have the above condition - without ever blowing a circuit breaker or tripping your main...

    Terribletom - It is unfortunate that you could not properly educate the inspector. You probably did the easiest thing. Although the purchaser is 'paying' for the inspection - lots of times they don't have much of a choice on who is used. The Bank usually has a list - and they get to chose someone from the list... plus - on certain types of loans - the inspector has to have certain qualifications. Such as being certified by the FHA.

    You might file a written complaint - to his field office - so that possibly he can become more informed. The GFCI issue which your discussing - is a BASIC protection point of gfci outlets... Or since the inspectors are usually licensed thru the state - you might try complaining to the Dept. of Labor and Industries... Doesn't fix the problem you went thru - just helps to get him educated or off the list.

  • 16 years ago

    "Having double tapped breakers indicates the potential of having exceeded the safety factor of the main service panel's load bearing capacity. And you can have the above condition - without ever blowing a circuit breaker or tripping your main..."

    The book is full of BS.

    All it indicates is that there may be more home runs to the panel than breakers available.

    It in NO WAY indicates anything is overloaded.

    There is no NEC rule for normal residential receptacle loading in a load calculation.
    The 180 V-A per receptacle is for commercial spaces.

    Without actually doing a load calculation, and seeing what is actually on the branch circuit you cannot tell anything about loading by the number of wires on a breaker, any mire than adding up all the breakers says what the load on the main is.

    If the breaker is not listed for two terminations (and few old ones are) just put a jumper in so that only one wire needs to connect to the breaker.

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks to everyone for their input. In this case, this inspector seems to be going by the book. In a bathroom, he tried to adjust tub door to see why they didn't close properly. I wound up removing them cause he screwed them up. As far as the electrical, I could probably fix most issues, but I'm supposed to have a licensed electrician sign off. Here in Louisville, you can't be licensed unless you're a contractor. I think the lawyers have created a monster and scared everyone, including the agents.

  • 16 years ago

    "Unfortunately, Inspector Clouseau Messr. L'Inspecteur did not and still does not understand the concept of one GFCI outlet protecting others downstream, so he gigged me for "no GFCI protection" on four outlets that were perfectly well-protected.

    I hated to do it but, after a brief pi$$ing match that went nowhere, I stopped by Home Despot, picked up 4 new GFCI receptacles for $60, rewired the feeds to the line side of the two primary GFCIs and slapped in the new ones.

    What a waste of money, time and energy. But sometimes, it's just easier and wiser to knuckle under and make the problem go away in order to remove a contingency in a $$$ sales contract. "

    NO WAY in bloody hell I would have caved to that dumbass hack of an inspector. Especially for something so easy to prove.
    Show the amateur how a GFI tester works. If that does not suffice tell him to piss off, because it IS correct.

    Caving in to these morons is the same philosophy why we have so many frivolous lawsuit in this country. Companies cave into scammers and dirt bags just to make the problem go away.
    What ever happening to being accountable for one's actions and standing up for what we believe is right???????

    (/rant off>

  • 16 years ago

    I sold a house and we had to fill out some long form listing the ages of all kinds of stuff. Yup the roof is old, the furnace is old, the hot water heater is old. It all worked ok and no leaks.

    Want does the idiot inspector report. The roof is old, the furnace is old, and the hot water heater is old. But it all works and nothing leaks. Now the buyer wants a $20,000 credit for a gold plated furnance. If you wanted a brand new house why are you buying an old one? Jerks

  • 16 years ago

    100% agree.

    Home inspectors serve ONE purpose these days. To give the buyer leverage to cut the price. PERIOD.

  • 16 years ago

    they worry about stupid things on their list and miss the dangerous things. Went to a house the other day that had an eight space FPE panel with a feed to the central AC tapped off the main, the neutral bar stuffed, and a double tapped breaker. The inspector said all it needs is one tandem breaker installed. The realator looked upset as I told his buyer the other problems and refused to put the tandem in. Fixing that double tapped breaker in that situation would be like only repairing a stereo in a car with a failed engine.

  • 16 years ago

    Yep, the inspector on my house documented the holes in the screens... but missed the broken floor joists and the foundation problems. I'm not the kind... but a few lawsuits might bring some much needed responsibility to that "profession".

    As a seller, the best defense against the nonsense is to disclose the issues ahead of time and put a cap on any remediation costs in the counter offer. As a buyer, it's good to find a good inspector early on, rather than rely just on the bank or Realtor to suggest one. Also, go with the inspector.

  • 16 years ago

    "I could probably fix most issues, but I'm supposed to have a licensed electrician sign off."
    I bet the inspector was not a licensed electrician.

  • 16 years ago

    "NO WAY in bloody hell I would have caved to that dumbass hack of an inspector. Especially for something so easy to prove."

    How very brave of you, Petey. :-)

    "Show the amateur how a GFI tester works. If that does not suffice tell him to piss off, because it IS correct."

    Well, uh, that's not exactly the scenario. What really happened is this:

    I'm not there while the house was inspected and, in fact, I've never met the inspector face-to-face. Their realtor gives my realtor a copy of the report who then sends it to me. I get it the afternoon of the day when the home inspection contingency is due to expire at 9:00PM. Rumor has it that the buyer is scared to hell of electrical deficiencies.

    Using the phone number on the report, I try calling the inspector and get his voice mail so I try explaining the issue to my agent, who tries to explain it to the buyer's agent who thereupon tries to explain it to the inspector. (I guess he's available to take calls from real estate agents who recommend him.)

    The inspector circles the "all receptacles in the garage(s) must be GFCI" item on his company's checklist. (Presumably, their checklist is 100% authoritative.) Their agent emails that to my agent who then emails it to me.

    Call me a coward if you'd like, but there is such a thing as a pyrrhic victory, too--something I din't need at the moment, with a half-a-million bucks on the line and a buyer who was entitled to back out of the whole deal.

    You can be sure I'll be sending the inspection company a not-too-friendly and not-too-complimentary letter (read: my rant) but, beyond that, it would have been very foolish to draw a line in the sand over a $60 issue when there were only hours left to reach resolution on the matter of adjustments based on the home inspection.

    Oh, and speaking of frivilous lawsuits, maybe I should sue the home inspection company for the $60.

    YMMV,

    Terrible Pusillanimous Tom

  • 16 years ago

    Tom, NOWHERE did I say I was brave, nor did I call you a coward.

    Caving does not necessarily equal cowardice.

    Maybe it is I who am too stubborn for my own good.

  • 16 years ago

    Wow, I see a lot of folks have home inspector opinions. Thanks for all the input - update - we are having an electrical company do the repairs and sign off. The price was fairly reasonable and they seem honest. We'll see. My experiences have pretty much fallen in line with each of your. In previous homes we've sold and had inspections, some larger problems were not focused on - just the obvious ones. I do agree that inspections are a great bargaining tool for the buyer and is an area where they can sometimes take advantage of the seller. I've also found that the home warranties pushed by agents are next to useless.

  • 16 years ago

    If you want to sue, the inspector isn't the guy (or gal). They're liability is limited to the value of the inspection. Although I suspect with the right lawyer and deep pockets you could do something. They're excepted as "experts" when in many (most, all) they are not and a simple misunderstanding of the code or mistake can cost someone a lot of money.

    I once sold a house where the AHJ required a kind of a CO (for a fee, of course). It is pretty basic stuff like smoke detectors and GFCI's although I suspect what they really wanted to check was if any major improvements were done without a permit. Nice way to collect a few dollars from someone about to leave town. Although the house was built before GFCI's were required in the kitchen, we had to change out the receptacles. Damn if I was going replace one more than I had to so I ripped everything apart to figure out what fed what. That was followed by a reinspection and $50 fee.

    Pete - I can be pretty stubborn too. That stubbornness once cost me $10k in legal fees to settle a case for $3k.

  • 16 years ago

    "If you want to sue, the inspector isn't the guy (or gal). They're [sic] liability is limited to the value of the inspection. Although I suspect with the right lawyer and deep pockets you could do something."

    Well, actually, the inspector's liability is limited to the value of the inspection only with respect to the party contracting for the inspection (i.e., the buyer in this case). But the value of the inspection has nothing whatsoever to do with the potential liability to a third party (i.e., me). [The legal principle: two parties cannot contract to limit liability to a third party not privy to the contract.]

    The right lawyer (heh, could be me, since I happen to be a retired lawyer) could cause them fits with an ugly lawsuit. Properly developed, the case wouldn't be about making a mistake in the first place; it'd allege gross negligence for not taking reasonable measures to cure the effects of the error after having received timely notification that their error threatened to damage a third party.

    Of course, it'd only be worth pursuing if it queered the whole house deal and caused lots and lots of consequential damages. Nevertheless, in theory, if the jury were to buy into gross negligence rather than simple negligence, it could award punitive damages too if they thought the home inspector was a real scumbag and wanted to make an example out of him.

    [Note that a private home inspection contractor should not be confused with a code inspector working for the AHJ. Absent the commission of an intentional tort, they are definitely not liable for their errors--third party or otherwise.]

    But, no, I ain't gonna sue for a paltry $60. Talk's cheap. Besides, I've BTDT. Enough already.

    Petey: Capisce. Peace.

  • 16 years ago

    By the time a home inspection is to be worried about, my wife and I will be long gone. Kids will have to deal with it. Smirk.

  • 16 years ago

    "Although the house was built before GFCI's were required in the kitchen, we had to change out the receptacles."

    Many jurisdictions do not allow counter receptacles to be grandfathered without GFCIs.

    Since no wiring needs to be changed, it is not an expensive upgrade.

  • 16 years ago

    Brickeyee -- one (maybe two) receptacles to change out, obviously not expensive. As I said, I think it was more a revenue generator and a way for the AHJ to get a little look around to make sure there were no improvements that somehow missed the permit (i.e., fee) process.