@Perfectly Painted Designs - yes, we have the current full surface model. thermador makes a push to open top/bottom unit too, but we preferred the gaggenau aesthetics and storage configuration. as for purchasing, we went though bulthaup in Los Angeles--but the gaggenau / thermador/ bosch showroom is in Irvine and (at least before Covid-times) you can generally stop through their and take a tour of all of the appliances from that group. .

@dotsandstripes 123

We’re also considering 2 singles placed side-by-side under the induction bench top...I kinda figure at least that way if there’s issue with 1 at some point then at least both won’t go out ;)

I feel the same about the enamel issue & figure knowing is half the battle so would just avoid the self clean.

Only other major complaint found was ongoing issues after the ovens mother-board went out (within 3 years) & that the ovens never function the same or for long without issues afterwards. Its been a point of serious worry BUT I also figure buying any new touch-screen appliances is a gamble so it really depends...

People only seem to leave online feedback when they have issues so THANK YOU! Its great to hear someone is loving them :)

@Noneya Business awesome thanx for the feedback- how long have you had the Thermador Freedom cooktop? Have you experienced issues with the control sensitivity like widdy mentioned (Such as with wet hands, etc)?

I also have to say that Sub-zero Wolf Customer Support is fabulous. On one of my days off of work, I called 3 different appliance manufacturers for questions/appointment scheduling. It took me about 1 minute to reach a live person (who was friendly!) on the phone with SZ-Wolf versus 25-30 minutes to reach grumpy people at Miele and Electrolux :).

I have a SZ 36" that's 18 years old and have only had to call service twice. We now need a new ice maker motor, and the repairman told us that the rest of it is in great shape, and will hopefully last until we sell the place. Still looks great, too. I also have a Wolf 30" induction cooktop along with a 15" gas wok burner. I rarely use the gas anymore. I love induction so much, I will never cook with anything else. More responsive than gas, and gives off much less heat so I'm not sweating as I sit down to dinner from standing at a hot gas stove. Plus the clean up is ridiculously easy. Four years in, we've had no problems. For ovens, I have a 30" Wolf E series and a 24" combi steam, which is fantastic. The only issue is the puddle of water on the bottom of the oven after using any of the steam features. I just wipe it up with a paper towel. No problems with either oven. If I only could have one, I'd have the combi steam just in terms of versatility. I have seen the Miele XXL cavity CSO and in my next home, I might consider it. I'm just not that crazy about all the programs that I know I won't use.

@Pignolia I was reading your post and it sounded exactly like something I would post!! What did you end up doing? I"m torn on the Induction Therm Freedom or the Wolf. I like the look of Wolf better, but I like the Therm Steam oven capacity is larger as is the oven. I like the push to open fridge/freezer and the 1-2-free deal is pretty good. However, I think we will go with SZ for the air purification and air scrubber. I hate the smells of food getting past a few days in fridge, so looking for longevity and odor free! Not sure if freedom really better for size? I really wanted a 48" gas range but now tying to figure a 36" (12" less space) cooking area. I was thinking of adding the 15" gas module but heard you never use them once you have induction! Was also thinking of doing with Wolf just to get 3 more years on all appliances! Deciding between micro drawer or speed oven. Once all this figured, I then have to start looking at undercounted things!

In the Phoenix area, our experience has been the exact opposite. We have known the Miele showroom consultant for years, whereas SZ/Wolf has as a revolving door of young people. Admittedly, their chef is excellent.

@Alex Max @Noneya Business, can you comment on the fan noise of your Gaggenau and Fisher Paykel ovens? We're building an open plan home and fan noise is a big consideration for both dinner conversation, TV watching and general livability. We were pretty much decided on Thermador but recent reviews on overall function and very loud fan noise are causing me to reconsider.

@JJ Mekai When are you building or have to order appliances? We are in similar boats with decisions! We are doing all Thermador (w/freedom induct), all Thermador with SZ fridge/freezer columns, or all Wolf. Besides the overall price differences, I'm stuck on these:

-is the SZ fridge/freezer worth the cost diff for the air scrubber, etc. and longevity,

-is the Freedom worth the extra $2k,

-Wolf CSO is smaller than Therm but has the external filler, and

-Wolf oven chipping issues.

-Now I have to add the sound of fan.

-Wolf gives you the extra 3 years of warranty which seems very valuable but then I would have to give up the therm freedom and spend $4k extra overall.

We are currently in the same boat and as of now, have chosen Thermador Freedom, a double Thermador oven with combi steam and are on the fence about the fridge. There appear to be deals where you buy two cooking appliances and get a free dishwasher, and if you buy a Thermador fridge, you get a free hood exhaust fan. We currently have all Wolf appliances (we are moving to a new house, hence the kitchen redo). We have the 30" induction, 15" gas wok module, and a double oven with a combi steam. Induction is fantastic, and I rarely use the wok burner. I will miss it for charring peppers and the occasional stir fry in a wok, but I'm fine giving it up. I use the combi steam all the time, so I know I need that. I was attracted to the Freedom cooktop because it is hard to see the cooking rings on the Wolf induction and that seemed to alleviate that. I'd love to hear from someone who uses it regularly and whether it does what it promises. I also liked the look of the Thermador ovens. My Wolf ovens are fine, but I've had Thermador in the past and they've worked well. If we could get a free Thermador dishwasher out of the deal, that would be great. We currently have a SZ fridge and have had it for 19 years. It's fantastic, and we'll probably end up getting the SZ. We only recently had to replace the ice maker motor. Other than that, no problems, and the technician said it would probably last another 5 years. We also have a Thermador exhaust fan and I don't love it. It's loud, but worse, when I'm cooking something that gives off a lot of steam, like pasta, the filters can only handle so much moisture and then it starts dripping back down on to the stove top. Hoping to get some more info here on the Freedom induction and I'm happy to answer questions about the Wolf appliances.

@Noneya Business, fan noise is the norm now to keep the electronics cool even after turning off the oven. Apparently, the cooling fan noise will continue for 15 - 60 minutes after cooking has ended. Some fans are noisier than others. There seem to be a lot of complaints about the level of noise on the Thermador ovens. There is also the convection cooking fan which is different but will also make noise during cooking. I've read complaints about the Thermador fans to the point that people say they can't have a normal conversation or hear the TV. I'm still not sure if these customers are anomalies and have a noisy one or if it's inherent in Thermador that their fans are quite loud. I am sensitive to noise and often won't use a range hood because I'm so bothered by it. Our new cooktop exhaust fan will likely be on our roof so hopefully won't be much of an issue as far as kitchen noise. Some customers say they keep the oven door open after cooking to so the cooling fan will stop sooner but others say this technique is very bad for the oven's electronics.

@The Chair Affair LLC, I have some time to make final decisions. We are still waiting for a permit to be allowed to clear the land and we have some other building issues to resolve. We're probably going to have to make appliance decisions in 9 - 12 months. I've been up and down and all around on appliance ideas. I thought I'd finally decided on the Thermador Freedom and Thermador ovens but now I'm not so sure about the ovens. I'm almost certain I will stay with the Thermador Freedom cooktop. There's nothing else quite like it other than the one by Gaggenau but Thermador has a bit better reliability than Gaggenau on the cooktop. The Thermador connected hood is intriguing and I like the idea that the light and fan will come on automatically depending on your cooktop settings but, again, the noise issue is a big one for me. I wish I could find more reliability data on Gaggenau ovens. My parents had one years ago and it was a dream to cook with. I've also been spending time on the Hestan thread on Houzz.

Our architect on the current project got the Thermador oven for his house and loves it. I've had Thermador twice in the past. I had to replace the motherboard once but other than that, had no issues. I don't want to get the Wolf suite again because I want to try something new, and I love the idea of the Freedom cooktop. I've thought about Gaggenau and think all the appliances are gorgeous but I can't justify the extra money -- it just seems like overkill to me. My only worry with the Freedom is hot and cold spots. I haven't done enough research to know if this is an issue but it just seems like something that could be problematic.

@The Chair Affair LLC and @JJ Mekai (1) Did either of you consider a Speed Oven instead of the Microwave drawer? Thinking of getting a reg small MW for pantry and getting Speed oven.? And (2) if you do the double oven with CSO, would you do the 1 unit or separate the appliances? It's $1700 more but you get two individual units in case one goes bad? I personally don't care for the look of the therm one unit in the contemporary style (see pics) (3) Also, did you consider the Wolf warranty promo now for 3 extra years? Pics below are of therm and wolf at the end: (I CANT SEEM TO UPLOAD PICS)

@The Chair Affair LLC, would love to know how your architect's family would comment about the fan noise on the Thermador oven. Our kitchen will be open to the dining room and family room so the noise level is important. I'd also like to know about how even the cooking is in the ovens from owners. If you are interested, here is the Hestan thread https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5991409/a-full-and-honest-review-of-my-48-hestan-range and this thread has a lot of discussion about the Thermador Freedom https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5378975/induction-cooktops-miele-flush-mount-vs-thermador-freedom.

@The Chair Affair LLC, I don't see the photos from your last post. My current plan is to have two convection ovens with side opening doors if I go with Thermador and a steam oven with a speed oven above it, so four ovens total. I don't really use a microwave much at all but if I did and thought I needed one in addition to the speed oven, I would put one in the pantry.

The Wolf chipping has been an issue for a while. There's something bothersome to me that it hasn't yet been addressed in a premium line of ovens.

@JJ Mekai and @The Chair Affair LLC See pics they finally loaded

Aesthetics are such a personal choice. I like the look of the Thermador lines, contemporary and professional. I would go with the professional line if I use Thermador ovens because I like to use knobs.

Here's my Wolf double with combi steam on top. They are separate and could be replaced individually. We have a small microwave in the pantry cabinet that works perfectly and stays out of sight. Also included a pic of that. (Not sure why my pics aren't loading -- will wait and see if they do)

@JJ Mekai I love the professional look better but my designer really thinks I should stick with the masterpiece if going with induction cooktop since it's sleek and would look much better aesthetically.

@JJ Mekai and @The Chair Affair LLC thinking of doing warming drawer near cooktop and NOT underneath any double appliance. I heard if close to floor you won't ever use it

I haven't read the comments, but we have a Miele dishwasher - LOVE it. Hands down the best. We recently JUST replaced our Sub Zero (which was 20 years old - original to the house), and bought a new one. Very happy with it.

We originally bought a Dacor induction cooktop, and the Dacor wall ovens (with speed oven / microwave on top)... LOVE IT. However, the Dacor cooktop went after under a year. Parts and service were ATROCIOUSLY long, we finally settled on a refund. We replaced with a Miele 36 induction. In my opinion, speed is slower than the Dacor, and it buzzes a bit more. But overall, very happy with my new kitchen and appliances. Hope that helps!

@olena, very helpful. Thank you!

@Donna Reed, relatives with warming drawers under wall ovens use them for storage and not as warming drawers. Presently, I'm not planning on a warming drawer but that could change. I feel that an oven that will heat to 180 - 200 could be used for warming and also we have countertop appliances that can be used for warming too. Since we will have multiple ovens, that makes the most sense for me, I think.

@The Chair Affair LLC, do you use your steam oven often? How noisy would you say the cooling fans and convection fans are on your Wolf ovens?

I hadn't thought about stacking wall ovens individually, but I kind of like that idea.

@jjmekai Just so you know, stacking the CSO with Wall over is $1700 more than one double unit! The pics I show in the first two is the unit as a double and then as two separate (except it was a speed and not CSO which is taller). The separate also lets you have a side swing oven. Wish CSO came side swing but maybe the steam would drip? Also they say it’s better to have independent controls. But is $$.

The Chair Affair: that CSO looks smaller than the Therm which is the same size as the wall oven. I wonder if it would be too big to have a double with separate units?

@Donna Reed I think the interior of the Thermador is slightly bigger than the Wolf, but my quarter sheet pans fit fine and there are four usable racks. I rarely use all of them at one time. But it is large enough for me. You can compare the cubic volumes on the spec sheets of each oven. @JJ Mekai I use my steam oven more often than my regular convection because it's multi-purpose. I can do convection alone in it, or reheat, which I use when reheating larger amounts of food. I use it to bake when I don't need to use my half sheet pans. The only things it doesn't do is regular bake without convection and it doesn't get hot enough to do a pizza, which I normally do at 450 regular bake. I also have a stone that stays in the bottom oven. But I use the steam a lot, too. There's an auto steam roast setting that steams first, then does hot convection that's perfect for roasting vegetables and fish like salmon. The reheat feature adds a bit of steam so food stays moist. It's a really good feature and beats the microwave in that department. But of course, it's not as fast as a microwave. I like using the smaller oven because it heats faster and cooks faster. No wasted heat if I'm doing a few smaller dishes.

Also, the fans are not loud enough for me to notice.

Took a bit to figure out that there is a door adjustment for the Wolf M ovens. Not all showrooms mention it, but you can adjust how hard or easy it is to push open and close the door.

@JJ Mekai @Donna Reed and For those of you considering steam ovens, you really should check out the new Anova Precision combi steam oven. It is the only oven of its kind where you can also do sous vide without bags (because it reads wet bulb temperature). This is a game changer. You can read about the technology but no other oven on the market has this. It's a countertop but I am installing in a cabinet with a pullout. It will be my primary oven now. I am in the middle of a remodel as well, and have had the same range quandary as Wolf doesn't make a 48 inch all burner range top. My kitchen is modern, and I like low simmering. I am still trying to decide on that or whether I get the Wolf range but it is overkill to have yet another small oven with the Anova, my big oven choice, and the toaster oven. My burners are my main thing and the combi oven, which also does air fry convection and all the other modes. I'm concerned about the Wolf oven gleanability without using the clean mode, the Miele has much better inside for cleanup, but no WIFI and a few other features.

The Sous Vide in the Anova is apparently quite a bit different than actual Sous Vide. It may still be a great oven but cannot do true Sous Vide.

.

"My burners are my main thing"

You should be looking at a Bluestar RNB.

@opaone I suggest you try it. There is no discernible diff given how it works and the results. It is a low low gentle moist environment. Read up and try it. I won’t be using my regular sous vide anymore. Re blue star, simmer is also important and all reps I’ve talked to said not good on bluestar. I want my wok to rage, but also low simmer onions on any burner. Ive seen the new 7 series Viking with Elevation burners but no one locally has it to try, and one of my local showrooms stopped carrying viking because of the purchase some years back by Middleby. Such a quandary. I have a 20 year old Wolf true open non-capped burner range and love love love my burners, but no Wolf has those burners now, only the capped. I'm putting this one in the garage for messy cooking endeavors.

@drositano I’m surprised to hear the rep said that about the Bluestar because it has that special simmer burner plus integrated wok capabilities...hmmm. Well mine is already ordered anyway! https://www.bluestarcooking.com/cooking/ranges/36-platinum-series-range/

@elizabeth_eclectic Yes every rep i talked to mentioned it. I am not a fan of being forced into a single burner for simmer. I read a number of people who for one reason or another regretted the platinum and wished they had gone with the rnb, but I can't cite the reasons.

"There is no discernible diff given how it works and the results."

Hmmm, there are actually very considerable differences.

A key element of Sous Vide is that the food is sealed in a bag. This retains the juices and environment within the bag and protects the food from environmental conditions outside of the bag.

Vacuum sealing and keeping the food pressurized adds another bit to this (I can't remember the details but I know that there is a huge difference when something is not vacuum sealed as like many others I've experimented with this).

Water has a much higher heat capacity than air. The water bath used in Sous Vide is critical to maintaining very accurate temps required for Sous Vide. This cannot be replicated with air or steam as Anova tries to lead people to believe.

Interestingly, Anova promotes that their oven "does sous vide in half the time". To my knowledge this is impossible as it's the very long slow cooking time that balances the collagen and proteins in the food and produces the results that sous vide is known for.

The Anova may be a great option for people to add basic CSO capability to their kitchen for an affordable price (and I'm actually considering one for my studio) but it is not a replacement for sous vide regardless of what their marketing material says.

I low cook on our Bluestar frequently. There are two options;

- Low BTU burner (simmer burner)

- Griddle / Flat-Top.

Both work well though the griddle is best for super delicate sauces and keeping stuff at a constant very low temp.

You can get more simmer burners if that is what you really want. I don't believe it is physically possible (or at least for an affordable cost) to create a single gas burner that can do both high heat and low heat as each requires different orifice sizes and patterns.

@opaone The Physics of heat transfer indicate that 100% humidity with steam is equivalent to water conduction. The vacuum has nothing to add. All it does in allows the surface on the product to be in contact with the water. The displacement method for excluding air is not technically a vacuum. it works the same as if you used a vacuum.

"I suggest that before knocking it you read the science behind the wet bulb temp and use of steam. It does exactly that."

If you've a link I'd be interested to read it.

Wet bulb is only a measurement. Knowing wet bulb is good, particularly for food, but then you have to do something with that knowledge. Steam, which is what this oven has available, CANNOT do what water can. So you know the wet bulb which is good but as far as I know you still cannot produce with steam the same result as Sous Vide in water. Not to mention the food is not in a sealed bag nor in a vacuum.

@opaone https://anovaculinary.com/what-is-a-combi-oven/bagless-sous-vide/

All of us in my family who have it have precisely duplicated bagged sous vide texture and characteristics, with a lot more flexibility. You can also still cook in a bag with the Anova and not deal with the water bath if you have circumstances where you want it bathing in marinade or sauce or just prefer the bag, but you can also do that in a pan in the anova as well.

@drositano, I purchased the Anova steam oven and I have a question. There is a strong chemical odor inside the oven. Do you recall how long that took to dissipate?

@jjmekai that’s part of the first step of setting up the oven. Once you’ve done the burning off stage, it’s gone.

@drositano, thank you!

I'm sorry, the comments above regarding sous vide in the Anova Precision Oven by opaone are incorrect. If you would like to learn more abou thow this oven actually works and can do sous vide cooking without a bag, visit the r/CombiSteamOvenCooking group on Reddit.