Hmm. The pantry seems very far removed from the kitchen and seems impractical to me if you're going to be doing a lot of cooking. Walking all the way around the corner past the refrigerators and into the hallway to access dry goods, etc. is going to become tiresome quickly. I'd consider relocating the fridge/ freezer and steam oven to the upper left corner on the same wall as the range, and then having a doorway leading into the pantry from the spot where the fridge/freezer was. This would require re-working the window placement, and possibly shortening the wall opposite the pantry in the mudroom, but I think it might be worth it for better work flow.

Instead of having lower windows on the range wall, you could put in clerestory windows which will give you the wall space you need for taller fridge/freezer cabinets and still give you the light you need. You've got plenty of windows on the kitchen table wall, so light will not be a problem.

I never like a pantry outside the main cooking area and honestly not walk in either I love true pullout pantries not pull out shelves behind doors Never a sink directly across from a range siance those are the 2 areas most used and often at the same time.I am thinking you are not using an independant KD and if not get one not some cabonet salesperson who can never think outside the box. I never put ovens next to fridges since both require drop zones . I do not see the cabinets you are planning but all base ones should be drawers and good sized ones deep enough to hold pots and pans. The cost of venting for a 48" range will cost as much if not more than the range I run a catering biz from my home with a 6 burner 36" all gas range and double wall ovens . Really think about how you cook and how much storage you need for food . I love entertaing and we do it often I have back to back sinks at one end of my island one side with a DW and my only regret is that I did not do 2 DWs one on each side. I do not like sinks in the center they break up work area nad I use my island for appys and drinks so the bigger the better and the sinks are out of the way. I never miss a table in my kitchen since we have a DR nearby and the stools are used for breakfast and lunch 99% of the time .IMO since you are on this site post the cabinet layout too and see what can be advised there too.

ditto Patricia's comments

To have the sink in the island of a kitchen that size seems like a waste. For entertaining it'd be best to keep the island clear. The run on the back wall is long enough to have the stove and sink. I'm also not a fan of the pantry lay out. Mine is steps from my stove so it's like having a huge cabinet right in my workspace. But then I also wouldn't want the wall of appliances in there either so maybe yours is more for long term storage rather than getting daily use items?

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful comments! I've included the elevations here for the kitchen and pantry.

Regarding the pantry and it's location: our goals for the pantry are: 1/ to act more as longer term storage, for snacks, and for having a place to put dishes when we're entertaining / to get the mess out of the kitchen (hence the sink and the DW in there). Most regular use will be prepping snacks/lunches for kids. We'd love to find a way to make it more accessible to the kitchen, but went through countless iterations and couldn't find a way to make it work. Our designers (I can't recall if it was cabinet or the interior/KD or both) also suggested we extend the wall a bit so that the mudroom wouldn't be visible from the kitchen (prior to this, the fridge/freezer ended where the pantry ended, so it was more connected to the kitchen).

@Sabrina Alfin Interiors we'd love to find a way to make a doorway from the kitchen into the pantry, but couldn't find a way to do this without a bad pinch point. I'm not sure I'm quite following your suggestion, but would love to find a way to make that work if it were possible. The windows on the range wall provide some utility (they enable us to see the driveway), in addition to being a source of light. Not absolutely critical, but I think clerestory windows wouldn't work with the exterior design -- though, if it was making things worse we could just get rid of them altogether because as you mention, we are not short on light.

@Patricia Colwell Consulting this design was done by our cabinet person in collaboration with our interior designer who is a KD, though maybe we should ask the KD to take another look? Regarding the venting, are you referring to back filling air? We worked through this with our contractor.

We have small children and currently having them sit at the island is a bit of a nightmare, since they are always squirming and nearly falling off the chairs, so having a table is quite important to us -- it'll be years before all the kids have outgrown that stage.

@aziline what is the downside of a sink in the island? We had this in our previous home, though very different layout, and found it was quite nice to be able to interact with people while using the sink. In this instance we're planning on having a galley / workstation sink so that hopefully we can hide away drying dishes.

Last - we're pretty well stuck with the oven / fridge / freezer that we have in the design, we ordered them back in january, and aren't expected to have them until february of next year. Any change would reset that clock.

This layout is almost exactly my kitchen. The only real difference is that I have a doorway into a butlers pantry which then goes into the pantry on the wall to the left of your oven. It works very well. I would switch the DW and wastebaskets as we always seem to prep on that side of the sink and I wish the dishwasher wasn't right below me. Here is my layout and some pictures of my kitchen.

I'd want the island to be for plating and serving food. Also, the sink is back-to-back with the stove which I also dislike. To me the kitchen is form then function.

If it were me, I'd get rid of the outside door and have cabinets on 3 walls instead of 2. That would make it a grand kitchen rather than one that looks pretty from one vantage point.

Is the cooktop side of the house the great view? Do you have a plan for window treatments for those windows? It's a great look, but I'm trying to imagine how it will feel at night.

I think you should do similar to cubby14’s pantry door. AND move the ovens, which require moving or eliminating the small window (I don’t think you need it anyway). The reasons for doing this: you can get some counter/landing space and/or the microwave by the refrigerator and still have the pantry entrance. And the ovens are out of the way, and you can have 2. (Micro should remain near the fridge). Also, oven doors next to fridge can dent fridge doors if they open at the same time and that fridge looks $$$$$$.

And as suggested above, switch the dishwasher and trash so that your cleanup is out of your work triangle. You have too much going on in that one corner. Move dw and ovens out of it and make better use of your space.

Have you considered switching the powder room and pantry? The powder room is right in the middle of the house and everyone in the kitchen, dining room, family room and foyer can hear whomever is in there.

You mentioned that the pantry is where you'll prepare lunches and snacks for the little ones. I would imagine that would be a much more enjoyable task, and one that would be easier to transition to the older kids, if that space were planned out in the main kitchen.

Came here to say that pantry is huge but completely impractical. You seem to have two intended uses for it, but I think separating those two uses into different areas would be more practical. On elevation A, could the ovens be moved to far right of elevation B, to allow for opening into pantry. Then run the sink and dishwasher, bev fridge on opposite wall from where they are now drawn. You could still have a pocket door from the hall off the mud room for convenience when putting groceries away. Or, do as i mentioned before to create opening room kitchen into pantry, but take half the space now for the pantry and create a powder room, with opening into hall off mud room. on the wall opposite the window, have cabinets and countertop for storage and use of small appliances, party supplies etc. and wine and beverage fridges. Then orient the sink, dw on the window wall in the pantry, Lunches in my home are always prepared by the fridge, because that’s where the sandwich meats, condiments, salads live. I don’t think the pantry will get used as you envision, but could be used for party cleanup and using crockpots etc. I also hate a sink in an island, but I also wouldn’t have more ovens in addition to a 46” range or any, so I guess if you need all those major appliances, the island gets the sink. Then the pantry for dry goods could go where the powder room is drawn, being more convenient to kitchen, and eliminating that awkward noise at the dinner table when someone has to answer the call of nature.

Adding I would eliminate all the extra ovens, and put a sink to take advantage of that view out of the back

Thanks everyone so much! Talking with cabinet folks and then KD about all this now. Really appreciate the feedback, I'll share back what we settle on.

Preface...Sorry I'm a bit late. I started this a couple of days ago, but holiday activities with family & friends got in the way!

I also worked up some layouts -- but if you're no longer interested, I won't post them. Let me know if you're interested.

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Warning – I'm going to be blunt! This is not a particularly good layout.

First of all, if you're going to cram all three primary work zones into a small part of a large Kitchen, then you need to make sure you have wide enough aisles so multiple people can work in the space. In this case since the range & sink are across from each other, I recommend 54".

If you insist on having the cleanup sink in the island (where your dirty dishes are front & center and on display for all to see in addition to being "in the face" of anyone sitting there), then at least add a prep sink to the left or right of the range.

Oh and regardless of what you may have heard, deep sinks and raised counters to NOT hide dirty dishes unless you're shorter than 36". Anyone taller will see all those dishes in the sink just fine! In fact, that deep sink with dirty dishes is going to be an issue when it comes time to prepare something (a dish or a meal). Additionally, you are reducing the amount of usable prep space. If you keep to a one-sink Kitchen, I recommend a double-bowl sink so you can have dirty dishes on one side and use the other side for prepping -- the non-DW side. The location of the DW is another issue, but others have addressed it.

Have you considered adding a prep sink to the left of the range? All that empty counterspace on the left and surrounding the range isn't that useful since those areas do not have what it takes to be a functional Prep Zone -- they're missing water access.

Regarding your hood...the range hood needs to be at least 6" wider than the range, especially since it's not flanked by upper cabinets and because it's near windows. Upper cabinets that closely flank a range hood help to corral FOGSS (fumes, odors, grease, steam, smoke). Without them, it's open air that allows the FOGSS to freely circulate around the house. FOGSS spread out as they rise, so you need something to stop/capture & hold them to give the hood time to exhaust them to the outside. If the FOGSS escape, it also means more grease to get on the windows.

Pantry…If that's supposed to be a true food pantry, then remove the beverage refrigerator, the DW, and the sink as well as the window. Food should be stored in a cool, dark, dry space, not warm, bright, and moist as yours will be because of the DW (heat, moisture), Beverage refrigerator (heat), sink (moisture), and window (light, heat). In fact, ideally, pantries should have all inside walls so outside heat/light don't affect it and to not waste a window on a room that isn't a public or private (BR, BA) room.

Prepping, making lunches/snacks, etc., in that location, btw, will be miserable unless you want to be all alone and confined to a small space.

I think Andrea's suggestion to switch the Pantry & Powder Room is a good idea. Powder Rooms should be somewhat separated from the main public rooms (especially the Kitchen & Dining Room) for privacy (both sight and sound). Plus, a window in the Powder Room is more pleasant than a small, windowless room.

If you don't switch them, be sure you have a very loud fan in the Powder Room or see if you can add some sound proofing to the PR walls to mask the sound of "activity" going on and remove the window from the Pantry (blackout curtains will help with light, but not heat from the outside -- unless you live in a year-round cold climate). Also, be sure you have very good HVAC that's adjustable to (1) maximize air conditioning in the warmer months and (2) minimize heat in the cooler months. (FYI...closing vents doesn't really reduce much heating, especially in a small room -- plenty of heat gets through.)

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I understand that you're used to having a cleanup sink in your island. However, I wonder if that's because that's what you're used to, what you've adapted to.

Human beings are very adaptable. We can adapt to anything -- good or bad. We adapt so well that we tell ourselves it's fine the way it is -- we even go so far as to say we prefer it that way. But, what if it could be better? If you ask just about anyone here who took our advice and changed their layout to make it better, they will tell you they never realized it could be so much better and wondered how they had lived with the issues for so long! (The answer is back to the adaptability of human beings!)

Human beings are also resistant to change. Even when something can be made better, we resist change. We like what we know and we have a hard time seeing other ways to do things -- even if they would be so much better! And, as I mentioned before, we've adapted to what we have -- both the good and the bad.

Why not at least consider something better?

@Buehl thank you so much for the thoughtful comments! This is fantastic.

We would absolutely love to see your mock ups/ideas!

Couple things to call out:

1/ another use for the pantry is a place to roast coffee beans, so the window is important. We've amassed all sorts of uses for the space, but I forgot to call that one out earlier (and I think I overstated the food prep -> what i meant was, we'll be packaging snacks for the kids, not making their lunches.

2/ would love to do dual sinks, but didn't think we had the space

And to all those who have mentioned the view: it's not behind the range, it's on the wall with no cabinetry (top of drawing). The smaller window there will actualy be 36" wide and enables the cook/dish cleaner to take advantage of the view, the angle won't work for them to catch the skyline from the big glass on that side of the island.

oh, and the powder room: we currently have the powder room where folks are encouraging us to put it (where the pantry is going). since we spend almost all of our time in the kitchen, we've found we want to move it away from us. we seldom use the dining room, and we will have rockwoll / sound dampening in the walls and a fan.

Here they are, in order of preference. I made the assumption that you really do prefer the cleanup sink in the island. Note that they were drawn up before your latest posts, so they don't have a Pantry with sink, etc. I think I would still rather not have all those tasks taking place in the Pantry, but that's up to you.

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OK...I changed my mind -- I like this one better. But #1 would work, just not as good, in my opinion.

The main reason I prefer this one is that the Cleanup Zone is out of the island and now you have a lot of room to prep while also visiting with people. It also gives you a large expanse of island that can be used for other things such as staging food during a party and large projects such as cookie decorating with your children, homework, science projects, wrapping gifts, etc. With the large cleanup sink in the other layouts taking up so much space in the island, it's not very useful for larger or group projects.

There are still plenty of places for assisting you in the Kitchen. You could have someone:

• Loading or unloading the DW
• Prepping to the left of the range/right of the Cleanup Sink (direct water access)
• Dry-prepping to the right of the range (no direct water access)
• If no one is loading/unloading the DW, then yet another person could be prepping to the left of the cleanup sink
• And then you (or your partner) have the most desirable location for prepping -- the island!

Oh, and someone can be setting the table without getting in the way of any of the cooks in the Kitchen b/c the Dish Storage is outside the various Prep Zones.

This layout is ideal for either one person working in the Kitchen or multiple people working in the Kitchen.

Note that I restored the Pantry to your layout. You seem to be very attached to it, so I put it back in.

Why put the primary Prep Zone in the most desirable location? Kitchen studies have shown that work in the Kitchen breaks down into the following:

• 70% or more is spent prepping
• 10% is spent cooking (actually watching food cook, stirring, adding ingredients)
• 20% or less is spent cleaning up (loading/unloading the DW, wiping down table & counters, sweeping up)

With DWs, we now spend far less time in the Kitchen cleaning up. We no longer spend an hour or more washing & drying dishes after dinner, which, btw, is where the "sink under the window" paradigm came from -- so much time was spent doing dishes, that it was nice to have a window to look out of. What's even better today is that all you really need to do is scrape food scraps into the trash (or compost) and load them into the DW -- no rinsing needed. (In fact, if you rinse your dishes, modern DW detergents won't clean as well. They need the food to activate the enzymes that do the work.)

@Buehl thanks again, so much, for all of this. incredibly helpful. We're going to spend some time tonight working through these zones -- while we love many of the ideas, they unfortunately don't perfectly given some constraints we have:

1/ The windows on the range wall are placed where they are to solve some symmetry issues on the outside. The one to the right of the range is centered under an overhang on the deck, and then the one on the left of the range is positioned to balance that one. We're could change their sizes, or remove one and just have a single centered window (or none at all), but if we place in the wrong spot under that deck overhang (e.g. if the post is going through it), it'll look pretty silly on the outside.

2/ Love the bigger window on the wall with the french doors, but there too we are constrained. The window labeled '20' is centered underneath that same overhang (small balcony above), and the rest of that wall, which the doors are centered on, is an addition. So -- we've centered the doors under their roofline and the window under its. We can move the window a bit to the left, and make it bigger (which we are going to do, so that the grill patterns patch across doors / windows -- all panels will be 36"), but we can't expand the window to be as large as we'd like without having it sit between two different rooflines which looks pretty bad/weird from the outside.

Most of the feedback here has encouraged us to prioritize pantry access from the kitchen, do you not agree with that? Our cabinet designer whipped up an option for us like @mama goose_gw zn6OH suggested that we're playing with.

We're actually not attached at all to the pantry layout, happy to reverse which wall things sit on. We do want to have a window in there though so that we can roast coffee in that room (which requires us to open a window, and put the roaster near it)

Also you are correct - the speed oven is a MW.

Yes, that will work. In layout #4, i shortened the wall so for that reason -- no wall to go around.

I understand about the windows. I misunderstood, I thought when you said they were all new they weren't "set in stone".

Edited to add: I meant layout #2, not 4.

Sorry i wasn't clear there! We haven't placed the orders, so some wiggle room, but a bunch of constraints.

Re: #4, do you mean #2, where the walk to pantry is shorter? What do you think about the other option where the doorway is to the right of the fridge?

I think this improves pantry accessibility a lot, but our cabinet designer thinks it makes a much less elegant kitchen (she really likes the "clean" L shape), and is not sure it's worth the trade off.

Re: the "clean" L--the door into the pantry won't be visible from anywhere but the kitchen, since the fridge and freezer will block the view. It also eliminates a corner, providing easier access to the cabs on the back wall, so you're not really losing storage on the kitchen side.

I like Buehl's plans with the separate clean-up zone and prep on the island--but still like the pantry entry from the kitchen.

*sigh* Yes, I meant #2. That's what I get for answering between meetings!

I'll correct it via an "Edited to Add" comment (ETA).

OK, spent some time with cabinet & ID. We created access to the pantry and modified based on the incredibly helpful feedback from everyone (especially @mama goose_gw zn6OH & @Buehl!). Attached here is the latest floor plan. Having access to the pantry is great, and having the dishwasher on the outside makes cleanup zone much improved, close proximity to dish cabinet, and trash seems better positioned. Still wondering if the primary prep zone is sufficient (about 38" on either side of the sink on island). Also, per your feedback @Buehl, wondering if we should change our potfiller to something like this: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2699429/prep-sink-next-to-range-how-close-is-perrrrfect, so that we have a secondary prep zone with access to water.

Any other thoughts? I love the cleanup zone you had proposed @Buehl, but not sure how to get that while managing our window constraints & pantry access. One option maybe would be to shift from two windows to one? Not sure.

Already feeling this is wildly improved, so very thankful to you all for your help!

That is much improved, just make sure you have enough space in front of your fridge no measurement indicated there.

I agree with cubby14--it looks as if there's only ap 36" in the aisle in front of the fridge (width of the 36" fridge door). It seems you want to keep the sink centered on the range, but it would be more functional to make the aisle next to the windows 36" and have more space in front of the fridge. But if symmetry is important, at least you know what to expect when making the choice.

38" for a prep counter is near the minimum recommended by the NKBA. If you use a positive reveal and have a cutting board made to fit over part of the sink, you can increase the prep space for the times you need more than the minimum.

Thanks -- I will verify the fridge walkway, but I think it just looks that way because I cobbled two drawings together (I took the island from a different drawing and pasted it onto the one with the correct perimiter).

I'll explore that 36" aisle on the window side, which would enable a bigger prep space there. What do you think all think about small sink next to the range like the one I linked to?

Thanks again!

Your primary prep area will be to the right of the island sink, since the DW is on the left. However, a helper can prep to the left of the sink, or on the short side of the island. I wouldn't worry about a prep sink on the range run, especially since there wouldn't be much counterspace available--and you have another sink in the pantry.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but the wider prep space would work better to the right of the sink; have you considered off-setting the sink and centering the faucet, with a corner right drain, to disguise the asymmetry?

Thats a really great idea, and no we had not. appreciate you bringing it up again as this is the thing were feeling is still unresolved ill try that to see if it can work.

thanks!

(edit: typos!)