Everyone is going to want to get paid for their ideas. That’s what they sell after all. They don’t give them away at bargain basement $99 prices. The problem is your budget for Professional Help is insufficient. And thus your budget for the whole project is likely not realistic as well. They are proposing a steep entry barrier to moving forward because of that.

http://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2018/

Well, there are plenty of knowledgeable people here, and they sometimes do mock-ups to show you what something might look like. I'd post the front of your house here, with a catchy title, and see what these talented folks come up with. At least it might give you a starting place, and some food for thought.

Hi Sophie. Thanks for the response. I didn't mention the budget at all, so I'm not sure why you concluded that it is inadequate. The modifications in question are significant (at least they seem like it to us - mid-six figures in rural western NY state), and we have absolutely no problem paying for professional help. The problem we are struggling with is having an architect invest all the time and effort to do a detailed, exact scale, plan and elevation for a single design, before vetting approaches at the conceptual level. That's a waste of both of our times! So I'm not sure what you are suggesting - that we cycle through concepts at this level of detail with an architect, or that we not approach an architect until we have a concept that is developed enough to warrant this level of detail?

I would follow Virgil's advice. And ignore Sophie - clearly she didn't even read your post before responding.

Hi Virgil Carter Fine Art. Thanks for the response. That's good advice. This is the first time that we've worked with an architect, so we walked in not knowing anything about the process, or expectations. We had just assumed that what you refer to as early design studies were part of the process, but maybe most people that engage an architect are already past that stage. We didn't even know to ask about this with the architects that we contacted. Agree completely that each turn on a new design study should cost additional - we fully expected that. So now maybe now we should get back to the architect that we liked the best and discuss this possibility. Thanks!

Hi Mrs. S. Thanks for the suggestion. We actually did do that! That's where we got some of the general ideas for what we wanted to do, and what got us to the point where we figured we needed to engage a pro.

I think Virgil's advice is very good as is your going back to the architect you liked and explaining what you wanted at this stage which is to purchase his expertise for a close ended consultation.

As a non-professional who has not gone through this kind of project, I do commiserate with not knowing the best way to even start to "concretize" the project as it is almost a chicken and egg - you want ideas and options but you also want to get a sense of what it would cost for each option - or at least a ballpark type of figure so that you can get a clearer sense of how you want to move forward from taking into account both financial and aesthetic considerations.

I would suggest thinking seriously about how much you want to spend on the project and discuss with the architect to see if it's even realistic and to make sure that you will be presented with a plan that is economically feasible and also perhaps more expensive alternatives that you might want to up the budget for. I am currently gut remodeling my condo and at my first meeting with my designer before I actually hired her, I threw out a figure to find out whether it was actually doable with that budget. I guess it theoretically was but the choices I made have probably almost tripled my original figure ha ha. But that was on me as I am sure if I had wanted to stay within a certain budget, I could have done so.

I believe our architect charged by the hour, but he was also semi-retired and only took on projects he wanted. When we started our renovation, I felt like it was sort of the chicken and the egg between an architect and our builder. Our builder couldn't give us any real cost estimates without seeing the "elevations" but we wanted some estimates before spending all the time and money with an architect and then finding out we couldn't afford what we'd drawn and have to start over. Once we just decided to accept the fact that it was what it was and started with the architect, we ended up only revising major things a couple times.

Our architect did everything by hand drawing and we didn't have any digital plans or 3D stuff for us. That would have been nice to have, but I just took my colored pencils to a copy of the plans for a visual, and then prayed haha.

Where did you get your budget figures aligning with your budget for the desired work? It’s a bit chicken and egg. You cannot have a real budget without design work first. All you can get are guesstimates. And contractors will guess low.

What Virgil described above was our experience also.

When we remodeled both our kitchen (first) and then our master bath, we used an architect (same for both) who initially charged by the hour for concepts. We were really stuck, especially with the kitchen. After we settled on the design we wanted we went to a fixed fee, if I remember correctly.

The only thing that seems odd to me is "minimal changes" allowed between initial design and final design. We worked with our architect with a similar fee structure, but his fee included several different design concepts, which we then gave feedback on, which he then looked at ways to change, combine, etc.. All sorts of things changed throughout that process. Once we all agreed the overall concept was what we wanted it to be, then he moved into more formal plans and construction drawings. (Early concepts were hand drawn sketches).

I'm going to take it as a compliment that Sophie had basically the same comment to me re: chicken and egg. :)

sometimes I wonder if I know what the hell I'm talking about lol.

OP, I'll be interested in hearing how you make out...I also live in rural WNY and am also considering a front entrance/gable/roof line change! We haven't gotten as far as you yet:)

Thanks, Kristin S - your experience sounds like exactly what we were expecting - we just didn't know it, or know to ask, when we started. Maybe we just hadn't run into an architect that was used to working with a client that needs help with early concepts.

karrilouwho - will do!

" . . . we should get back to the architect that we liked the best and discuss this possibility."

Good advice. I once went sailing but wanted to keep one foot on the dock . . . it didn't turnout well.

I wish we had hired a different architect by the hour before we began our remodeling process. The one we went with came out once (with pay) and I thought we clearly went over the styles we like we like with pictures and discussions. He had excellent reviews.

The process took much longer than he had originally estimated and it was very hard to get a meeting with him. He took on too many projects at once.

When we finally got our finished plans, we wound up changing almost everything and many of his figures weren't right for the rooms, either, so the builder had to adjust them.

We were already several months into the time we had wanted to start, so we didn't begin all over with another architect. I hope your experience is much better than ours, but I would stress COMMUNICATION above all.

I'm not an architect, but I was an interior designer (now more or less retired). I would give a client a general idea of what I envisioned for their space, but nothing specific until we had agreed on the scope of the job and how I would be paid (hourly or cost-plus basis). You have no idea how many tire kickers there are out there, and many want to "pick your brain" and then go do it themselves. Not happening!

All the hard work of the experienced thought is on the front end. The rest is just paperwork and details once that happens. You’re not paying for a paperwork preparer. You’re paying for their brain.

Too many people want to basically pay nothing for the hard part, and then once someone has stupidly opened their mouth and given away the candy store, the documents that flow from that thought then get created by someone else.

Which is why most design professionals will want a larger retainer fee on the front end that covers more than initial conceptualizations. Don’t be surprised at a $500+ an hour fee if you want hourly.

We definitely weren't "tire kickers" and we were not looking for freebies. We paid all the architect's fees, though his work was virtually useless to us. Not to mention the months we wasted going past the due date he had given us.

It would have helped us a lot if we had known that he didn't have a clue about our vision for the house. We might have gotten on the same page if he had talked with us more at the start, and we again would have paid whatever he charged.

It would have been much better to consult at $500.00 per hour than to pay the entire bill for something we could hardly use. It was a waste of his time and ours.

Hard work and experienced thought can be great if the aesthetic matches what the client wants. Unfortunately many will not. Their product is valuable but not for everyone. For some it has no value. That's why everything isn't the same color and dimension. If you review a professional's past work you could rule out those who will not mesh. That's part of the client's responsibilities.

Sophie Wheeler - Thanks, that's good insight on the value of the front end experienced thought! You're right, we wouldn't think it fair to pay peanuts for initial idea concepts, only to walk away without committing to the job. So maybe another alternative is committing to the job (e.g. the 50% payment - or more) with the understanding that quick turn concepts are part of the process before the initial exact scale plan & elevation? It sounded like what we were hearing was that the up-front retainer did not include this. If it did though, we would not have a problem making the up-front commitment. We just don't want to commit to (i.e. have the architect invest a lot of time in) a specific design until the design options have been considered and the best selected.