Doesn’t believe in contractor licenses either? Because you can’t get one without proof of insurance. And you cant‘t hire him in either case and be in compliance with municipal requirements. You’re not gonna sit for the contractors exam for him too and buy him insurance.

Just hire the legit contractor.

Many old order Mennonites do not believe in insurance.

I'd move on rather than getting involved in their mishigas.

The only contractors available in my area are these Amish shed builders. I'm working with the Town building office and there is a solution, but I just wanted to find others' solutions to similar situations. This one, of course, won't be using any heavy equipment. They don't drive nor use electric power equipment. Since there are many in the area and they do have many jobs, they must be meeting the licensing requirements.

Ask him what he does to work in your community. Maybe he's found a solution. As the owner, if you submit the plans and pull the permit, you can build your own structure for your own use without being licensed and insured. A freedom here in America. We did that. We brought in people to do various things. No one checked if they had any credentials. We called for inspections. Our building inspectors were helpful with questions we had. We moved in. They expected us to just sell it.

Your state may have an exemption that they apply for - they have to provide proof to qualify as exempt from insurance. I would think a town that is near Amish would have come across this already. Here is another thread on this, some good tidbits:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3099185/contract-with-amish-builders

Thank you, 3onthetree, that other thread was very informative and makes me less hesitant about hiring this guy without insurance, if the Town allows it (which they do if I go through enough hoops).

No problem. The Mennonite will just pray to the Lord to heal his injured workers. If the Lord doesn't come through, we taxpayers will.

What 3onthetree said. At least in my state, Amish can be exempt from workers comp coverage.

We are having a conversation with him this evening as to what his workflow is. I know he will mill the lumber at his farm, and probably have it trucked to the jobsite by an English driver (he comes by horse and buggy). The trusses, the LVL beam, windows and roofing will all be purchased and delivered from a local lumber yard. The garage door will be purchased by us and installed by the garage door dealer (not part of the Amish contract).

We have a couple of quotes for workers' compensation insurance, using the NY State Insurance Fund, but they only do it for a year. $3500 and $4500 were the two quotes, which are roughly 10% of the builder's charge. Our homeowner's policy only covers minor workers (under 21).

That's weird. I was able to add a rider onto my home owner's insurance policy to cover selected residential employees for workers' comp. It was a few years ago that I did it so I can't recall specifics - I just know I talked with my insurance company and explained I was hiring a single person to do some work (painting), and sole proprietors don't need WC coverage.

I wanted to make sure I was completely covered in case he got hurt and tried to pin it on me. My agent assured me that between my regular coverage and the workers' comp rider I was fully protected.

The rider didn't cost my anything. It's still there on my policy.

I'm sorry it's such a hassle and cost for you.

Sounds like BS Mtyhike If you ask me. Will they pull up in a F350 pickup or a wagon pulled by a horse. Will they use only hand saws and tools or pull out the extension cords to power electric tools to do the job. They will use your power because they don't need to buy it.

I've read they don't believe in lawyers and law suits either so would they sign a wavier of liability affidavit? But they will defend themselves in court if you bring suit against them. What about the lumber, was the lumber cut down and milled in someone's barn without certification? Look for certification stamps on the lumber and is this something which is also taboo?

They don't believe in a lot of things but have a habit to work around the rules even with their beliefs to get electric power, modern tractors, implements, mortgages and more. Look up "Mennonite Mutual" an insurance company for the Amish and sells insurance for everything on their farm, so don't don't fall for the "we don't believe in it" BS. They do but cherry pick. Hire someone else, and maybe the reason there is no other contractors is because the Amish pushed out competition because they don't pay what other contractors need to pay. Like Social security, medicare, workman's comp insurance and who knows what else they don't pay. Don't use them.

He pulls up in his wagon pulled by a horse (did so already to look at the jobsite).

He mills his own lumber, from his own trees (I've been to his farm, about one mile away).

Power use is an interesting situation - he doesn't use electricity, but his sawmill is driven by a gas engine.

There are no other contractors because they are all either busy or retired. When I moved here to build my house in 2013, most contractors were unavailable; I was fortunate enough to find one then.

That's odd.

For comparison CA doesn't require insurance to pull a permit or have a license, but they require a bond for a license, workers comp if you have employees or are a roofing contractor.

Lenders require liability insurance.

If you hire a contractor without insurance you may be the one liable for injuries on the project.

Your builder pulls the permit, not you. Don't mess around with permits. You go to sell, and no permits were issued on your improvements? No sale until...

That's actually not universally true judianna. I've personally sold 2 homes in NYS that had major work done without permits. No issues with either sale. Not that I would encourage anyone to not get permits, but I'm just saying it may not impact a sale. Especially on a garage...

Just a few building codes to think about.

R602.1.1 Sawn lumber.
Sawn lumber shall be identified by a grade mark of an accredited lumber grading or inspection agency and have design values certified by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certification of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.

R602.2 Grade. Studs shall be a minimum No. 3, standard or stud grade lumber.

Also be aware of what moisture level which is permitted in the lumber.

This might be a dumb question. But have you asked the office that issues building permits about the builder in question? Not just the situation in general, but the builder specific.

I honestly don't know. Everywhere I have lived the onus has been on the builder for WC, not the homeowner. The homeowner can hire someone with WC or not, but they aren't on the hook if a worker gets hurt during work. It hasn't been a stipulation of the municpality for a WC requirement for private building. Insured in case of damages general is always encouraged, but not usually required.

If hiring for a commercial build, that can have other. If contracting with a municipal you bet your booties all the LBI/WC is in place.

"Joseph Corlette's comment with regard to Mennonite contractor business practice is uninformed to say the least."

How so, Charles? Please.

The cheap and quaint guy is gonna bankrupt you if you’re not careful here. You should hire a legit licensed and insured contractor. It’s going to be cheaper in the end. But less ”picturesque story.” for your friends. Which seems to be most of the draw here.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC,

There's always a risk when tarring folks with the same brush. Your insult was incorrectly directed.

While the Amish may be exempt from workers' compensation laws in some states due to their religious beliefs (they care for members of their community who are injured or have experienced loss) the Mennonite faith represents a broader set of beliefs. Some old-order sects are similar in many ways to the Amish and may qualify for a similar exemption, but the vast majority of Mennonites are quite different from the Amish (the Amish split from the Mennonite Church in 1693.) A pretty clear difference can be inferred by the number of insurance carriers with "Mennonite" in their name.

Neither Amish nor Mennonite contractors put an undue burden on U.S. taxpayers by avoiding worker's compensation insurance. What can be argued is that an exemption from workers' compensation insurance provides a competitive advantage for Amish contractors compared with others who have the obligation to pay workers' compensation insurance. That's a fair point. And a different argument.

My friend used an Amish family of father and sons to build a 30x50 pole barn in Northern MI just as Covid was starting. No drama. No problems and competent quality build. This is a garage. A simple structure with electrical but no plumbing or HVAC. Single story. Just move forward. Success probability is very high.

I don't know about providing Worker's Comp for them, on your policy. What that says to a court is that they are your employees, and then that brings up a host of other things along with that. I have been involved in a project where an injured worker was claiming they were an "employee" of the owner, however, during the court proceedings, a signed estimate (bid becoming contract) was provided as proof that the worker was not an employee, but a contracted person. That didn't eliminate the owner from being financially culpable for an "accident" happening on their property, but it eliminated the ongoing costs of caring for an injury and substantially reduced the amount of culpability.

My NY home is near a large Amish community, and we've used Amish builders to build 2 pole barns for us on 2 different properties.

I agree with Charles Ross homes. I've never seen or heard of Amish doing anything but paying their own bills when a member gets injured. I have not heard of them availing themselves of Medicaid, for example, if someone gets injured and the medical bills are high. We've seen some horrific accidents involving buggies and cars. Sometimes Amish people end up inpatient in a hospital. Somehow those bills get paid, and it's not due to insurance nor a lawsuit. Somehow their community always pays it off.

I also agree with Charles Ross homes that their ability to quote jobs without needing to account for workers' comp gives them a huge advantage. We got several quotes and they were the cheapest, by far.

As far as I have seen, they show up when they say they will, they do what they say they will, and they produce a decent product. (Notice I said decent. It's not high end construction, but it's not garbage either.) I would not hesitate to use them again.

Again, if someone wants to argue the religious exemption gives them an unfair advantage - as said above that's a totally different argument. But the "fear" of any Amish suing you if they get injured working a construction job is not a realistic concern. I have zero knowledge of Mennonite customs or practices, but I'd stake my life that an Amish individual is not going to sue you if they get hurt building your garage.

Just a couple of opinions/observations.

The courts are not going to look at worker's compensation insurance as an admission of employee-employer relationship. It is quite common to have worker's compensation insurance on various domestic service contractors such as baby sitters and lawncare workers.

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Mennonites and Amish communities are not monolithic. So the degree to which they accept or reject modernity is largely dependent on the specific community. However, many Amish don't reject the use of electricity, they usually reject ready access to electricity, so they often reject having their homes electrified but don't reject the use of electricity on job sites. Similarly, many Amish communities reject the ownership of vehicles but not their use.

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As far as I can tell, Mennonite Mutual is not an insurance company for Mennonites. It was started by a Mennonite named J.M. Smucker as an aid plan for Mennonite farmers, but is now a regular mutual insurer that specializes in insurance for farmers and faith based organizations.

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The Mennonites and Amish have been extremely successful in the courts and states generally have to find a way to allow them to conduct business without infringing on their religious freedom. The Supreme Court has a series of rulings in favor of Mennonite and Amish petitioners that basically require statutes to an allow an exception for them.

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As for their advantage... Mennonites do not have to be pay Social Security or Medicare taxes and are exempted from withholding those taxes on their Mennonite employees. I suspect that not having to pay the 15.3% on employees and being exempt from self employment taxes is a far bigger competitive advantage than no worker's compensation insurance.

I have always had pleasant experiences with the Amish but have limited experience with Mennonites. I find it hard to believe that anyone could claim they are a burden to taxpayers when, in fact, they pay property and income taxes far in excess of the benefits they receive from that taxation.

Charles:

I don't care about anyone else's religion, except when the claim of same gives someone an unfair competitive advantage. Such is the case here. Every contractor who, like me, plays by the rules, has the overhead expense of worker's compensation, other insurances, licensing, etc. You don't get to play the religion card to become low bidder or more profitable at my or your employee's expense.

I have no doubt that a Mennonite may stitch up a cut without anesthesia, but if he falls off a roof, is paralyzed, and suffers chronic bedsores, he's going into the modern hospital with electrictiy and I and other taxpayers are picking up the tab. Your religious freedom ends at the opening of my wallet.

There is a lot of misinformation and assumption here. Mennonites generally accept modern hospitals and don't mind benefiting from electricity. They are not against modern medicine or electricity, they don't reject modernity that way. They believe that easy access to those things remove individuals from the community and that people are actually better off when part of the community. A thesis that is difficult to argue with as there is a lot of evidence to support it.

Mennonites would argue that they don't need forced insurance as their sense of community provides the same benefit and does so better and more efficiently than insurance. Insurance is a risk and cost sharing mechanism. It is only necessary because you wouldn't chip in to help a competitor of yours who lives a couple of blocks over. Worker's Compensation insurance uses the idea that jobs present a constant and somewhat calculable risk of injury to spread costs. In other words, if there is a one percent chance that a worker "falls off a roof, is paralyzed, and suffers chronic bedsores," worker's compensation insurance is going to group 100 employers together and have them all pay 1% of the cost. If a Mennonite worker "falls off a roof, is paralyzed, and suffers chronic bedsores," the entire community, even direct competitors, are going to offer financial support freely. Moreover, they are going to offer other support freely.

There really is no cost advantage to them. You are being forced to pay insurance to support workers injured on the job and that is factored into your cost. A Mennonite is voluntarily supporting workers injured on the job and that is factored into their cost. In reality you get a tax deduction for the support you are forced to give and they don't, because they give freely of the money that they earned and paid taxes on. So the idea that they have a competitive advantage because of insurance just shows how many people don't really understand fungibility.

The reality is that Mennonite communities use modern medicine and generally pay their medical bills in a timely manner. When one member of the community can't pay their bills other members will assist them and know if there is ever a time that they can't pay their bills the favor will get returned. The only real competitive advantage that Mennonites have is that they live much more frugally than most.

My employee just had a double hernia operation that was covered by worker's compensation. It is ludicrous to think that expense would be covered by a Sunday plate passing offering.

My employee just had a double hernia operation that was covered by worker's compensation. It is ludicrous to think that expense would be covered by a Sunday plate passing offering.

That is exactly what did happen. The only difference is that someone put a gun to your head and forced you to put money into the plate and then took 25% for the cost of the gun.

The only difference is that someone put a gun to your head and forced you to put money into the plate and then took 25% for the cost of the gun.

Bry, that was priceless. I laughed out loud.

Joe, I realize you don't know me, but I'm swearing to you that the community covers the medical bills if an Amish member ends up needing medical care. As I posted upthread, we have had some really horrible accidents involving cars and Amish buggies, and as you can imagine the people in the buggies do not fare well. Neither do their poor horses, but that's a whole different tangent...

I have worked in medical billing in the past. Trust me on this. Amish pay. They never go into collections and often they don't even try to negotiate the bill down - they always just pay it. Anyone who knows anything about medical billing knows they're probably way over-paying - cash pay often doesn't include in network discounts, for example. They get a medical bill, the community pays it, and life goes on.

Isn't the bottom line here: the Town requires the builders have Workers Compensation insurance?

I’m going to do what the town requires.