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Outdated kitchen renovation

I just purchased a my first home (yay, go me!), but it has a horrifically inefficient and outdated kitchen. Please excuse the mess, I'm still in the process of moving in. Before I begin, I will note that I am a technical person. I have a keen understanding of functionality, but I do not have a good eye for aesthetic.




I did some CAD mockups of the potential new kitchen. Don't pay any attention to the colours, I just chose the default colours for now. When the time comes one or another of the women in my life will select the colours for me. Also, the thing beside the fridge is a dishwasher. It doesn't really show in the CAD, but it is.






I have a few general questions/topics for debate:


1) You can see in the third picture that there is the awful box that acts as headspace for the stairs to the basement. It extends out from the counter beneath the window by about 16". My contractor said he can bring it in about 6", and if we get a 30" counter, rather than a 24". I was planning on putting a 2 drawer cabinet in that space (which my CAD software did not allow), but it would still be sticking out 4". I don't really want to go wider than 30" because then accessing upper shelves on wall cabinets can be difficult. Does anyone know how to make this look not crappy?


2) Since I think we're going to go with 30" counters, I was planning on going with wall cabinets that are 18" deep. Does anyone have any experience with this? Will accessing the back of those cabinets be a problem? Will it just look downright weird?


3) My girlfriend wants the cabinets to go all the way to the ceiling (our ceilings are 8'). It will obviously be difficult to access things on the top shelf, I get that, but should we split it into two cabinets with two doors, or just have a single exceedingly long door? Any thoughts?


4) The corner unit in the existing kitchen is really, really hard to access. You need to step onto the headspace block just to get anything out. If you couldn't tell, I'm very concerned about being able to use the space well. Any ideas about this?


5) Any other general thoughts, comments, criticisms, ideas, or concerns?


Thanks everyone!

Comments (18)

  • last year

    If you want help create a 2D floor plan with all doors, windows, walls, etc measured out. Include where everything leads to.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked cpartist
  • last year

    Can you pull back the wall next to the fridge? The red flag for me in pics like this is always “fridge too close to wall”- your fridge door will probably not open fully in that layout. I would also reconsider the ovens+ cooktop in a small space and think about doing a range instead.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked snappity
  • PRO
    last year

    Well IMO empty the space so we can see the bones. Then a toscale floor plan of the whole sape as if it were empty. Use graph paper it makes doing scaled drawings a bit easier. You will get lots of free help here . Do not use a cabinet makers or cabinet salesperson for kitchen design. If the plumbing cannot be accessed easily the show where that is. All windows , doorways where the doorways lead and every measurement clearly maked then post that here in a comment in jpeg format.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked Patricia Colwell Consulting
  • last year

    Ditto snappity on the fridge placement. Blocking a doorway and next to a wall (and dishwasher) will be frustrating. It's hard to get a feel for the overall size of the space, but perhaps a range vs cooktop/wall ovens would be a better and more efficient use of the space.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked tlynn1960
  • last year


    Here is a 2D floorplan. I will note the "D" and "H" are doorways.

  • last year

    A couple people noted the wall beside the fridge. We could certainly move the wall, or we could flip the location of the dishwasher and the fridge.

  • last year

    My GF is set on the built in oven, so changing that probably isn't going to happen. The kitchen is a decent size, and there's will be lots of storage space, so I'm not concerned about that.

  • last year

    Oh no! Do not flip the fridge and DW location. That's beyond not functional. Why not put the fridge on wall F, with a microwave shelf or drawer beside it? That lets you put adequate dishware/glassware/flatware storage to the right of the DW, convenient for unloading clean dishes. I'd also move your cooktop a foot "south" so you are not standing right in a corner while you cook there. You could put a narrow base cabinet on the "north" side of the range that holds baking trays or cutting boards.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked mcarroll16
  • last year

    I just realized that the reason it's so difficult to reach the back of the corner cabinet and the side cabinet in my existing kitchen is that they aren't actually over-the-counter. Due to the headspace for the stairs, the front of the cabinet door is aligned with the back of the counter. Definitely not going to do that in the new layout!

  • last year

    Keep the dishwasher close to the sink, so you're not dripping dirty stuff on the floor as you rinse in sink then load into dishwasher.

    Ceiling height: I have 8 1/2' ceilings. We used 42" doors with 4" moulding, to curve it gently into the ceiling. I have to get a step stool to access the top shelf, but I'd have to do that regardless of using one 42" door or a stack of 2 doors. And I think stacked doors look too busy (my opinion only; if you like it, no problem, it's your kitchen.)

    Cabinet depth: If 18" hides that weirdness with your basement stair headroom and looks good, go for 18". It is extra deep but you are not required to shove stuff all the way into the back on each shelf! If the depth bothers you, get a box of the right dimension to occupy the annoying space. Problem solved!


    Alexander MacDonald thanked nickel_kg
  • PRO
    last year
    last modified: last year

    You can see in the third picture that there is the awful box that acts as headspace for the stairs to the basement. It extends out from the counter beneath the window by about 16". My contractor said he can bring it in about 6", and if we get a 30" counter, rather than a 24".

    Sorry, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Are we to assume these stairs are no longer functional? Or do you plan to use them? If the former, there has to be a way to rip out the header and still maintain structural integrity. It might add to the cost of the project, but it would be worth doing so you don't have to create a Frankenstein counter and cabinets to accommodate them especially in a kitchen this small where space is at a premium.


    But if it's the latter, how do you plan to get in there? Is there a way to relocate the stairs? Or change the layout to create a pantry in that corner so you have access?

    Alexander MacDonald thanked Sabrina Alfin Interiors
  • last year

    Where do door F and D lead to?

    Show us a full floor plan (measurements not needed) of how the kitchen relates to the other spaces on the floor.

    Also what is the age of the house?

    Alexander MacDonald thanked cpartist
  • last year

    Here are my “stacked wall ovens” in a very small kitchen ;) wall ovens would be cool, but you will sacrifice a lot for them in that kitchen. 100% do not flip the dw and fridge! I like the idea of moving fridge to the F wall and doing pantry or other storage on each side for clearance.

    Alexander MacDonald thanked snappity
  • last year

    It seems that I'm getting a lot of hate for the wall oven. You've presented a lot of very good points, however my girlfriend is set on a wall oven, so we're going to have to work with it.


    Door "H" opens onto the dining room, and door "D" opens onto the foyer.


    I thought about putting the fridge on wall "F", but we just ripped out most of wall "H". There's only 1 foot of wall there. If we put a fridge there, we'll have to wall off two additional feet, which will really close off the space. My GF and I love the openness of it.


    Here is a drawing of the floorplan when we purchased the property. The wall separating the living room from the dining room is mostly gone, and the doorway exiting the kitchen has been closed.


    The stairs are very much functional. They lead to the basement and sadly cannot be moved. My contractor wants to move the stairs beside the front door (where the coat closet is), but I'm tepid at best about that idea.


    The house was built in 1955.

  • last year
    last modified: last year

    I think I’m still a little confused with the doors and wall situation. Which kitchen doorway is gone?

    I am in a small 1954 house, so familiar with the small 50s homes. you might want to think about an 18” dishwasher to buy room for other things…


    In fact, my range was abutting a wail like yours does now, and we just removed that wall in our reno and I cannot believe the difference that made! if you can pull the cooktop more into the room you will be glad you did. (I also have induction to buy more ’counterspace,’ too.)

  • last year

    Here's one possibility. You've got a decent amount of space for a 50s house. And the changes you've already made, especially walling off the doorway to the stairwell, give you a decent layout to work with.

    • For the awkward space above the stairwell, I would just make a cabinet, and use vertical dividers. Great place to store cutting boards, large skillets, and/or baking trays.
    • The fridge is on wall F, where it's easy to grab ingredients and take to the sink or cooktop. Landing-space countertop beside it, and microwave shelf in the upper cabinets.
    • If you need more ingredient storage away from oven heat, put a tall pantry cabinet beside the fridge, and put the microwave above the wall oven.
    • Definitely do cabinets to the ceiling. Single doors, not a stacked look. For 8' ceilings, that's only 40" tall doors plus an inch or two of crown molding. (You might hang the uppers slightly higher than 18" above the countertops to allow for light-rail trim at the bottom).



    Alexander MacDonald thanked mcarroll16
  • last year

    1- I'd suggest back splash material for the part above the counterand for the lower part, if doable, use whatever you'd be using for your cabs (it would add to thickness though). This is from a former kitchen where we did a similar thing.



    2- No experience, but I have a drawer over my fridge and I find it quite useful. Some pictures I saved when doing my kitchen. I think they may help with deeper uppers.





    Also, these look really functional but I doubt they're available for deeper than standard uppers.



    3--5- Some ideas.

    I thought about putting the fridge on wall "F", but we just ripped out most of wall "H". There's only 1 foot of wall there. If we put a fridge there, we'll have to wall off two additional feet, which will really close off the space. My GF and I love the openness of it.

    In your layout you show tall, 24" deep cabs on wall F. Does that mean you're OK with seeing a foot of those cabs from the DR entry?

    Well, any way ,I have a base cab next to fridge on wall F in the below rendering. It would be much more functional to have the fridge close to both sink and the cooktop, and at a more open area of the kitchen.





    I'm thinking a tall, 30" deep, 30 or 36" wide cab next to DW. It can be used both for plates, glasses etc. and as a pantry.

    For the cooktop I'd suggest a wider cab, say 36" cab for 30" wide cooktop and have the cooktop installed to the left, as much as possible or have cooktop b/w 2 narrower cabs.



    If one of the cooks is left handed, having some room on the right when using the right side burners while the left side ones are busy is very useful (ask me how I know).