Grass is grass, no matter how tall it gets, and most perennial grasses will spread by roots - some faster than others, to be sure.

You can mulch just along (outside) the fence, maybe 3' out, using either something organic-iky like newspaper with stuff on top (see newspaper recycling bin for enough paper) or just pin down a 3' wide section of woven weed barrier.

You can nuke it with roundup, but you'd need to do that pretty much every year.

I have the same issue - I tried the newspaper but it blew everywhere, and now use weed barrier. I will, every now and again, use roundup on the worst of it as well, particularly the grasses that shoot out long runners, both above and below ground - like brome grass.

g'day tom,

is there some reason you can't attach the finer meshed wire onto the original wire so there is no gap? ie.,. sounds like the post are on your side of the fence line and the wire on your neighbours side, if so consult neighbour and run wire along there so long as it doesn't detract from the fence appearance and costs the neighbour nothing maybe they won't object? or if it is an internal fence do likewise the new wire ahs to be on the same side of the posts as the original wire.

and when tying the other wire on do you use tie wire which is fine plain wire, this will last a long time.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

len,

i think you don't understand. the fence is around my garden in my yard. the original fence is sloppy (not tight from post to post) and the chicken wire is tied to that. they aren't tied tightly together. the jute breaks from age and has gaps between the 2 fences.

the problem is the grass that grows around the fence, on the inside of the garden, in the space where the 2 fences are tied together and on the outside of the fence. the grass is the problem. i do not want to use roundup so my solution is to remove the current fence, install a new fence 2' away from the current fence and mow the grass between the edge of the garden and the new fence.

i still ask will that stop the roots that border the garden in the lawn from growing into the garden?

tom

Tom - no. Mowing the grass won't make any difference at all on the roots doing what roots do.

I know its the organic forum but yes roundup is the anser then mulch it deep maybe even with plastic underneath to keep the grass 2 feet away from the outside of the perimiter maybe vinigar would do the same or torching it then mulching it

"I know its the organic forum but yes roundup is the anser"

Roundup is never the answer in an organic forum. Mulch is.

Wayne

Most any grass will send rhizomes, tillers, roots out especially to a soil that has a lot of nutrients and the only effective control is a barrier that will stop that. Mowing has no affect on the grass sending out these roots in search of more nutrients. What to use as a barrier depends on the type of grass, but seldom does newspaper or cardboard work all that well when laid on top of the grass and the grass is an invasive species. You will need a vertical barrier, something that will stop the grass roots and will be deep enough to stop those grass roots.
none of the glyphosate products are ever acceptable to an organic gardener, and people that suggest them are not organic growers. There are other, better, methods to stop unwanted plant growth than poisoning our planet more.

====>You will need a vertical barrier, something that will stop the grass roots and will be deep enough to stop those grass roots. ..... There are other, better, methods to stop unwanted plant growth than poisoning our planet more.

ok kimmsr i'm all ears. what is the vertical barrier?

name those other better methods.

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i do not want to use roundup but i have to stop the invasion of this grass. it is not lawn grass, it has broader leaves. i need a real solution that works, roundup should work but it is not a good solution.

putting down leaves, grass clippings, newspapers, cardboard is not practical because they will blow away or be washed away from heavy rain. i can't lay down cardboard and then place rocks on it. so these ideas are not considerable.

moving the fence solves 1 problem - i have access to the garden perimeter without hassling with the fence. tall grass/hay growing around a moved fence is tolerable. the goal is to get that (the fence/grass growing on both sides of the fence) away from the garden's edge. the 2nd problem is then how to stop invasive grass and weeds from getting into the garden. FYI - i leave a 2' border from the garden's edge to the beginning of the planting area, let's refer to that as the no grow zone.

one solution may be moving the fence back 12" to 18" and then digging out all the grass leaving it bare. as weeds and grass grow in this space and the no grow zone (2' wide + the 12" or 18") take the roto tiller and run it around the perimeter of the garden. doing this every 30 days will destroy anything growing and stopping it from going into the garden. right now that seems like a positive solution as i use the tiller just twice a year. using it another 5 times in the growing season is just getting my money's worth from the tiller. the down side is rocks in that 12" to 18", this is connecticut and you can't put a stake 2" into the ground without hitting rock! spraying roundup may take longer than tilling but may be required just 2 or 3 times a season and it eliminates the rocks in the new area that don't exist in the no grow zone as i have removed just about all of the rock.

ideas, comments?

tom

There are other, better, methods to stop unwanted plant growth than poisoning our planet more.

To expand the discussion ever-so-slightly, arguably the greatest ecological risk to the lands of the Western United States is the onslaught of invasive species and how they are 'reconfiguring', or one could easily say 'destroying', hundreds of millions of acres.

All weeds are not of equal importance for management. The focus of this list is on exotic species that are highly invasive in natural systems. Those species that are of a concern in agricultural situations, but do not pose a threat to rangelands, forestlands and wetlands have not been included. Many annual forbs have not been included. Exotic species typically used in range restoration which are known to be invasive have not been included. Invasive annual grasses which disrupt natural ecosystem function have been included.

see link for list of Colorado alone.

And of course we welcome any suggestions on how to control these, over millions of acres of public and private land, organically.

Here is a link that might be useful: list of invasive plant species BLM

Sorry Tom, my post above isn't helpful.

It sounds like you have an invasive grass species, something I deal with all the time here. I dunno if it is feasible for you or not, but if you can, somewhere along the perimeter of your garden, dig out a foot deep trench, lay down a doubled, vertical and horizontal "L" shaped bit of woven weed barrier, then fill, you should be able to spot the stuff coming over the top and easily remove that, and the doubled, buried woven barrier will seriously put a dent in the underground invasion.

Tilling will just encourage it - breaks it up into lots of new little grass plants.

for my benefit, let's stay on topic please. while invasive plants out west are a problem just like the invasive plants down south or here in the east are a problem that is not the purpose of the thread.

dave the weed barrier idea is not a good idea because as i till each fall and spring i very likely will catch it and rip it up and wind it on the tiller's tines and the shaft they are on. i have clipped the metal fence many times! appreciate that idea but i don't like it but please suggest more.

i realize that tilling will chop the grass roots and just create more. while that could be a problem, it would not matter assuming i till this perimeter every 30 days. this would stop above ground growth and reset it to square 1 each month. i'm figuring this keeps knocking the grass back to the point where as it gets a start i destroy it. in theory this keeps that area soil with nothing growing in it for more than say 2 weeks at a time assuming it takes 2 weeks for the roots or seed to start above ground growth again.

i still favor this method but maybe there are other ideas. i used vinegar (5%) once and the grass just laughed at me.

tom

I have a neighbor who uses a tractor to till, a foot deep, his 2 acre plot several times in the early spring, right up to planting time, all to control weeds. Then he spreads manure and tills all that in. In his case, I think he destroys the soil structure, but then he's 85 years old and grows one of the most productive gardens I've ever seen, so what do I know.

I think your theory would work, but where I would hesitate would be the large rocks - when you've busted a few tines on your tiller, and if you're 'mechanically challenged' like I am and forgot a shim or something when replacing them and therefore pop a bearing or a shaft the next time you hit a rock, this might get expensive and turn into a real hassle. If it's a single rock every spring, then I wouldn't worry about it. If it's a rock every 3 feet, every time, then I would worry about that.

I live on a slope with a lot of rocks and invasive grasses. I do a lot of rock barriers holding up flower gardens and such. I find that a doubled layer of weed barrier does indeed stop the grass - could you lay something along the top edge so you aren't going to hit it when you do till?

g'day tom,

no! as others have said that will not stop the roots invading the garden what will help is that you create a weed barrier around the gardens, that is an area adjacent to the gardens of about .5 of a meter wide which can become the path.

we lay newspaper up to or underlapping the garden beds and then use whatever it is we use for mulch to cover the paper yu could sue stones or sawdust, and mulch it as necessary adding new paper as necessary, this gives you a workig space where you can pull out any grass that might try and encroach on that area. a weed barrier can be further enhanced with a planting of say lemon grass along the outside edge once the lemnon grass whatever grows dense and strong the grasses will have a dfficult time spreading past it.

our main weed contender is cooch grass but we find it very easy to pull up any runners that cross the border.

now no matter what fence you put up grass will still grow up under the wire, that is another you may need to control or set up maybe so you can use a line trimmer to cut that down as often as need be.

len

A vertical barrier is anyting that you insert in the soil, vertically (up and down) that will stop these grasses from rooting in tht garden. That could be the 4 or 6 inch plastic stuff they sell in the stores or something tougher and longer. I often use 10 inch wide Aluminum flashing to keep the quack grass from rooting in the planting beds and Janet Macunovich, over on the east side of Michigan uses that 18 inch wide plastic carpet runner cut in half.
However, if you till at all you may well rip out whatever barrier you put in so you need to make a choice here, either put up with the grasses rooting or put in the barrier to stop the roots which can mean change practices and stop tilling.

another idea is a flame weeder. this also has a problem - cost and i mulch tomato plants with straw and if i touch straw with a flame i have a fire. could wet it down or flame weed after a storm but then the butternut squash will be a problem as vines approach the edge of the garden.

no end to the possible fixes but they all have problems. the 1 that has the easiest method of use and least work is roundup. i really don't like it tho as i don't want to spray this even on the outside border of the garden but unfortunately it seems like it may be the best for various reasons - simple to use, no extra digging to remove rock or grass in that 12" strip, no dealing with rocks in the new border and hopefully it will kill the grass that is sending runners into the garden. but if it does not stop the runners then the garden still has this invasive grass and i will not spray roundup inside the garden where vegetable plants are growing. your soil is very important and i won't put roundup into the garden soil.

i really don't think there is a good solution, just many that all have problems associated with it. right now i'm thinking move the fence back 12" and spray the grass at the garden edge 12" to the new fence line. hopefully this will create a 12" border that is DEAD and sends no runners into the garden.

tom

I'll share what works for me, and you decide whether or not it is appropriate to your situation.

I have had great success with composting in place / hybrid lasagna gardening to keep the grass and weeds out of my gardens. I have a few raised beds in my lawn and I keep a border which I think sounds similar to what you have or are wanting to do.

I keep it simple and mix my freshly cut lawn clippings with used coffee grounds and a good amount of cross-cut shredded newspaper. I put this mixture down generously (in inches deep) over the area where I don't want any grass/weeds coming up and then I top it all off with loads of hay/straw (I don't know which is what, but it comes in a bale so I will call it "hay") to keep the sunlight out.

My thought is that under the layer of hay, the fresh clippings, UCG and newspaper eventually heat up and kill or severely weaken the grass and weeds. The hay seems to prevent any additional germination by keeping out the sunlight. Add more hay as necessary to keep area covered.

The sun does a nice job of bleaching the hay in place, so I think it is an attractive mulch that does a great job. I used to think this was my idea since I just took a chance on it out of frustration of battling (and losing to) the weeds and "lawn creep".

But, it's not a new idea. Here are a couple of links that I discovered after the fact. Wish I had read these a long time ago...

Ruth Stout And Permanent Hay Mulch

Hay Makes a Great Mulch

What I, and others, have seen over the years is that some grasses thrive in the environment created under heavy mulches or a Lasagna bed and root much more vigorously. In our area of the world Quack Grass and Johnston grass simply love the conditions created by mulching and the rhizomes grow bigger and longer with growth nodes closer together. A barrier is the only way to stop the invasion.
Using any glyphosate product is not the only solution for anyone and is unacceptatble to any organic gardener/farmer.

You don't say how big your garden is. If it is not too large could you keep the grass under control by edging the garden with either a sharp spade or an edging iron and then keeping the grass in check with edging shears? You get a V shaped gully all around your beds with one vertical side next to the grass and one sloping side against the bed. This is the common way of edging beds over here. If you install a new rabbit fence and throughly clear the grass to start off you could then edge the garden outside the fence to prevent any grass getting back into it.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:151780}}