"is that against the law?????? Lawyers???????????"

Yes, of course it is. Suppose someone grabs a book that they bought and changed a few words... do you think it would be legal to publish a book called Jerry Podder and the Chalice of Flame?

Bry let’s not forget we also shouldn’t speed, j walk, and do a million other things that we know are wrong and still do. Not excusing it at all just saying the list of things that aren’t legal that are done on a regular basis is long. Add to it all the people who post plans with no right to them. Many an architect asks to see those posted plans and encourages them to be shared which most often infringes on copyright and yet many of those same architects call foul on stock plans being altered by a draftsman.

If you *buy* the plan, shouldn't you be able to make changes to it? If you buy a book, you can do whatever you want to it, but if you then try to sell it as your own work, that's when you would get in trouble.

Bry let’s not forget we also shouldn’t speed, j walk, and do a million other things that we know are wrong and still do.

First, what does this have to do with the question at hand, whether or not it is illegal has nothing to do with whether or not people speed.

Next, what are the consequences of those actions? Speeding and jaywalking carry a small fine. Modifying an architect's plans without his permission and then building the house can be a much more costly mistake. I suspect that fewer people would speed or jaywalk were the fine $250,000.

Many an architect asks to see those posted plans and encourages them to be shared which most often infringes on copyright and yet many of those same architects call foul on stock plans being altered by a draftsman.

You assume that the OP can't get permission to post the plans. Many architects will happily give permission for their work to be critiqued. There is nothing illegal about requesting that plans be posted to offer assistance that is asked for.

Whether or not that qualifies as Fair Use is something I am not sure of.

If you *buy* the plan, shouldn't you be able to make changes to it?

Some of that depends on the contract with the architect when you bought the plans. However, a draftsman wouldn't be legally allowed to create a derivative work even from purchased plans without the permission of the copyright holder.

Bry you completely missed my point. People literally don’t give a crap about the consequences. They are selfish, entitled, and oblivious. It doesn’t matter if it’s a speeding ticket or copyright infringement or fraud. People excuse it all and don’t care one bit. You spouting legal jargon will yield nothing.

Fewer than 2% of homes are architect-designed for a reason.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that reason. There is a temptation to take descriptive statistics and assign meaning to them, however, descriptive statistics don't tell us why. This is really just an opinion piece and no more valid than any other reason we could invent for few homes being architect designed, and personally I would be absolutely shocked if the noted reasons were even close to the truth.

I suspect that it is mostly ignorance of the process and misunderstanding of costs. In fact, in this very thread there have been assumptions about cost that are not supported. I don't believe architects are always needed or desired, I do believe that the reason most people give for not hiring an architect is wrong.

Honestly, I suspect that considerations of orientation alone are sufficient to largely offset the cost of an architect. People often forget about the costs of owning a home and the marginal costs of comfortable living when discussing costs.

True custom home designs are out of reach for many Americans. But not being able to or choosing not to work up close and personal with an architect doesn't relegate folks to live in a home devoid of proper scale, proportion, and authenticity of detail.

In the past, some American architects, Asher Benjamin, for example, helped to promote quality architectural design through publication of pattern books. More modern examples include complete home plans offered for sale such as Sarah Susanka's "Not So Big" house plans, Jack Arnold's Country French and Old World Romantic plans, and plans available from the talented team of architects at Historical Concepts (okay, I'm partial to southern vernacular style) sold through "Our Town" plans. For folks who would like to ignite the architect-versus-designer argument, let me add that there are also plans available from some talented architectural designers such as William E. Poole.

Some architects have gone a step further than just selling house plans. Russell Versaci, author of "Creating A New Old House," partnered with Connor Homes to deliver his "Pennywise" collection of home plans as pre-panelized homes (I don't know if partnering with a builder will get his AIA designation revoked, but that's for others to pursue.)

The point of all this is that there is a place for both pre-designed home plans and for unique, custom plans designed for a particular client and site. Houzzers, let's move beyond the "either-or" argument and help folks seeking help whichever design route they are pursuing.

There are definitely some well designed pre-designed plans. Alison Ramsey comes to mind as having some nice plans. However it seems that too many of the plans chosen tend to be overblown roofs, with lots of bump outs and gewgaws stuck on instead of well thought out plans.

Or they choose a plan that would be better on a narrow city lot for their farmland acreage, or the opposite, wanting to build a McMansion house on a 5000 square foot city lot.

And if they do find a nice plan, then they plop it down with no thought to best practices regarding passive solar heating/cooling. So all their public rooms will face west for example.

Houzzers, let's move beyond the "either-or" argument and help folks seeking help whichever design route they are pursuing.

You are correct that it shouldn't be either/or but good design. Unfortunately the majority of the home plans posted by people are just poorly designed plans.

"...You are correct that it shouldn't be either/or but good design. Unfortunately the majority of the home plans posted by people are just poorly designed plans..."

That's the real problem. Many of the plan factory plans are simply awful designs...unthinking designs...designs by inexperienced and non-talented people. They are generic designs, not meant for any particular site or terrain, nor for any particular family and style of life.

Not all, of course...there are some well done designs, by talented people. But they are in the minority, by far.

The challenge for consumers, is to be able to understand what's good design and what isn't. More to the point, the challenge for consumers is to understand what works well and is appropriate for their specific site, family living conditions and budget. Many consumers, unfortunately, don't have this understanding.

And this is the reason this forum exists, and we see so many repetitive "help me with my plan" postings.

There are postings in the archives about what makes good design, how to plan and work with an architect, site selection and orientation, and a host of other important issues of good residential design.

A search will bring them up, with their many helpful comments.

I hate to see anyone settling for the mundane. Online plans are mundane. They try to be exciting, but they fall short or they just plain don't work. One thing an architect designed home should do is meet your needs and fit the site (worded that way on purpose). There is so much more out there than building someone else's dream; build your own dream.

Hugh Newell Jacobsen home plans are available on line.

But I expect most consumers would stand back in shock as they've never seen such things in the latest Parade of Homes. (Never mind, that their municipalities and HOAs would find endless faults; and Houzz commentators would reject their "complicated" rooflines.)

I've never considered "everybody does it" to be a particularly compelling argument in favor of something that is both illegal and unethical - however unlikely you are to be caught at it.

Mark is designing our house. It is fully custom, from scratch. I don't believe we ever discussed a stock plan in any way. I've subjected him to many a photo, just to convey what I'm looking for, but often this is something a little bit off the beaten path. I got something that fits the site, fits our family, and has a bit of whimsy to it.

Our circumstances are a little unique in that we are unplanned home builders. We flooded and tore our home down instead of repairing (many reasons).

For financial and time reasons, we purchased an online plan. It was designed by an architect, and we chose to spend more to purchase the CAD files. We had an architect friend make some very minor changes (mostly changing doors to windows and making some of the very expensive 'fancy' things more standard). We changed a jack and jill to hall entry, combined a laundry closet and half bath into one room and took a few feet from our porch to make the kitchen bigger. I don't know if it would be difficult to find an architect or draftsperson to do this for you. Ours was a sympathetic (she flooded also) sibling of a friend.

We are GCing our project and are pretty close to getting started. I will try to update on here as I can. To be honest, I try not to say too much because we don't fit into the 'accepted' method of 'custom' homebuilding on these sites. :) I'm ok with that, but only have so much emotional energy to devote each day and Houzz doesn't make the cut!

There is so much great information in these forums, you just have to filter out what applies to your situation and leave the rest. Good luck with your project.

Appreciate all your input and resources to look into. For us, it’s more or less deciding where we can potentially save during the building process. Thank you!

I am living in an older house with a perfectly functional floor plan. But if I had the chance... You could site the house on the north end of our lot and have beautiful southern exposure with bright light all winter long. No stock house can take orientation into account. And you can't underestimate the value of good orientation. You can orient a stock plan properly but almost all stock plans put the large windows out the back of the house which works 25% of the time.

If your lot does not have a southern back yard, take the opportunity to investigate other options. I have a stock spec house built across from my vacation house - just finished. There are 3 fixed picture windows (probably 6x6 ft in total) in what I guess is the living room facing northeast. That wouldn't be so bad but there is a house 15 feet away in that direction - built by the same builder with the same plan. Really stupid. That is not the view direction either even if the house wasn't there.

Architect is not the only option. I work with a great designer. My design costs have been between $2k and $5k for the last 3 houses. The $2k was a copy of his plan with some mods.

OP, you actually can save with an architect over buying stock plans. How? Because the architect not only takes into account the specific lot for views but for energy consumption and construction costs with a simple roof design (for example) and other building elements. Compare all the savings - not just the short term plan costs. There are long term savings to be gained with a properly designed home over a stock plan.

Worthy, checked out the Jacobsen home plans. I find them ugly, lacking windows, homes that high winds and tornadoes would love to rip roofs off.

most folks here don’t seem to like stock plans.

arch firms sell plans and will tell you they can make the modifications or you can have someone make the modifications for you.

It's fairly hard to quantify costs in a custom plan vs. stock plan. Because most people aren't going to get one of each and then have them fully bid out. I'd say that a lot of the savings in a plan drawn by an architect are "hidden." All through the process a GOOD architect is automatically avoiding things that unnecessarily increase costs - complicated roof lines, wasted space, etc. They may not even have been mentioned to the client as places where their money was "saved." An architect can give you interest, detail, and a bit of whimsy without resorting to things like peel-and-stick elements on the elevation, unneeded interior angles, or other things that add cost without adding value.

Maybe somebody like bry could put a number on it, by costing out some of the threads where someone comes in with a stock plan and leaves with a much better plan by someone like ARG. Although that sounds like a lot of work just to prove a point.

Can you get a poor architect? Sure. Can you find a good stock plan? Infrequently, but yes. Can you get a good "designer"? Again, somewhat infrequently, but yes. When some of the "old hands" on this forum point out that your professional is not an architect, it's usually because the work flow is being done in a way that is contrary to the way architects are taught to think about design. If your "designer" is doing one floor at a time, then pasting a facade on the front... you're not dealing with an architect. Even making changes to a stock plan can be problematic because every interior change creates something different on the facade - and vice versa. Hence the very long thread not too long ago where the poster had issues with second floor ceilings, doors and windows secondary to a change in roof pitch. So your "simple change" to a stock plan may end up creating problems unforeseen until they are encountered.

If you were able to find a stock plan that works for you, why not get it? My plan was not from scratch, I would not have even known where to begin. I purchased a plan from Don Gardner and was assigned a staff architect to make my requested modifications. I will also say that I made even more changes and adjustments on site during construction that were taken care of my builder and framer.

I will also say that I made even more changes and adjustments on site during construction that were taken care of my builder and framer.

And if you had made the changes before starting you would have saved a bundle in change order fees. And that is where an architect earns his/her money in that they know beforehand how something is going to work or not work. They know where to put raised ceilings, or headers or how to orient the doors so you don't wind up with doors banging into one another.

The bottom line is those of us who are not professionals don't know what we don't know.

"is that against the law?????? Lawyers???????????"

Yes, of course it is. Suppose someone grabs a book that they bought
and changed a few words... do you think it would be legal to publish a
book called Jerry Podder and the Chalice of Flame?

I'd like to hear that from an 'actual' lawyer...........People buy reproducible plans 'all' the time and make 'minor' changes. That's just normal. The architect that drew the plans still gets paid by selling their plans online.

Cyndy, so sorry to hear about your home flooded. Hurricane last year? That was a bad year......By chance are you in NC? Allot of houses were flooded last year on the coast here.

robin, just because people do the wrong thing all the time doesn't make it right.

Some people buy the plans and make the changes through the floor plan vendor like they are supposed to do.

Others violate the copyright provisions and bring the plans to their own draftsperson to change. It is irresponsible of you to encourage people to do the wrong thing.

Many people have no idea that even after the plans are purchased, the plans do NOT belong to the consumer and they can not change them without going through the proper channels. Why do I say this? Because, IME so many people don't read the conditions/agreement/contract.

Having someone like you on the sidelines encouraging others to do the wrong thing doesn't help.

robin0919 - Texas. Harvey got us. older home, cracked slab, almost 2' below base-flood-elevation but a very desirable 2 acre parcel. We decided to take the long but hopefully better-in-the-end road of tearing down and building new. The construction/remodel industry is still booming with Harvey business...makes it a challenge to get things going with good reputable folks.

"I'd like to hear that from an 'actual' lawyer"

I submit that my law degree is a lot more credible than your business degrees.

"People buy reproducible plans 'all' the time and make 'minor' changes. That's just normal. The architect that drew the plans still gets paid by selling their plans online."

So what? The owner of a copyright gets to sell you whatever he wants to sell you. He can sell the right to reproduce the work, the right to build the house but not reproduce the plan at all, the right to change the plan, he can provide the plan for free and charge for changes, he can sell ownership of the copyright, etc. He can monetize his intellectual property many different ways.

Typically, the copyright owner charges more for more rights. You can't pay for one type of useage right and pretend since he got paid you have other rights.

“To be honest, I try not to say too much because we don't fit into the 'accepted' method of 'custom' homebuilding on these sites. :) I'm ok with that, but only have so much emotional energy to devote each day and Houzz doesn't make the cut!”

bless you Cyndy...and good luck. After our fire we built a stock plan as well on GW. Of course that was many years ago when GW was more open minded for lack of a better phrase. Please stick around!

bry911 provides helpful information regarding the (limited) rights of plan purchasers. Generally, architects and designers who sell plans on line will be glad to modify plans to suit. If you choose someone else to modify the plans, you will be well served to contact the copyright owner and purchase a license to modify the plans. William E. Poole does a good job of outlining the options with their firm at the following link:

https://www.williampoole.com/modifications/

Getting back to the original question whether it's useful to buy online plans for your architect to start from... bring ideas and an open mind to your architect. If those ideas include a plan you like or many, that's fine as long as you don't get stuck when better ideas may flow from the creative process. My concern with an architect or anyone else starting from pre-packaged plans is that their mind is already closed from the beginning.

Depends on what you want. I actually don’t agree with the majority opinion on this forum.

You’d think there’d be more architecturally significant houses being built given the pro-architect bias. If you like existing designs from an online plan shop, why pay someone to design a similar structure from scratch?

There’s the building supervision argument for having an architect. It’s a bit of a luxury with the value depending on the builder.

If you want something unique, I’d hire an archtiect.

This thought came to me as I looked at the other thread that went up about online plans and I thought about posting it there, but thought it fit better here.

I think that we all should admit that there are well designed plans available on the internet, the fact of the matter is, there are so many plans on the internet that simply weight of numbers have to allow for some well designed plans. However, the question becomes can a homeowner identify it. It isn't only about the architectural features of a home, but it is about the limitations of the environment that home is going in, and its usage.

I submit that some enterprising young architect should start a consulting business where they do design charrettes that look at the lot and some basic needs to develop a footprint that meets the owner's requirements and then sends them on their way to go out and make a better decision in their online plan selection.

It would have to be a young architect because an experienced architect would not grease up their client with bacon fat and then push then into shark infested waters (How's that for a metaphor). Things can still go wrong with half-ass services. Good plans on the internet are a needle in a haystack, and it is a really big haystack. If the square peg is small enough, it will fit in the round hole. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think I will call it a day.

Non-architect here.

Stock plans can never take into account the individual lot - sort of by definition. You can put zero or low value on that but I believe that is a mistake. If your lot has no unusual characteristics and is typical suburban lot sized, then at least a stock plan can fit that well.

My observation is that the majority of custom builds in the last few years are either of a higher end or on a larger lot would favor the more recent bias on these forums to using unique plans.

I have no data on this but at least in my market, the "custom development" market is done and gone. We used to have small developments from 10-100 homes where multiple builders purchased lots and people built custom houses. The last home I built was in 2009 as one of the last homes in a 55 home development. One of the last of its kind in this area. They used stock plans or architect plans on relatively cookie cutter suburban type lots. This market is gone and all large tracts are Lennar/Toll etc purchased. The custom market has gone to larger rural type lots not in a subdivision and urban infill lots. Both are less suited to stock plans.

So the "bias" on this forum against stock plans would appear to be rational based on market conditions.

Hopefully also we live and learn. Stock plans appear to be filled with bling to impress less sophisticated customers. Over time we hopefully become more sophisticated. I see it in the spec houses locally that still have plenty of bling but at least a bit more sophisticated than 10 years ago.

We did something similar. I couldn’t find anything online that I just loved, but I found a few plans that were a great place to start. I took a little something away from several online plans after months of searching and sketched up a rough idea. I then took it to a local draftsman to draw up actual plans. He did a great job, and we are very happy. It cost us about $1200 vs ten times that for an architect. I did have to get a few engineers involved for things like a foundation plan, which cost us about another $1000, but overall it was a good experience and saved us a ton of money. I don’t think there was any copyright infringement, since I was using the plans for research and inspiration and brought my own ideas to the table.

I posted a few months ago cautioning people to slow down and definitely hire professionals. I rushed into the build with an online plan, didn't think I needed an architect, wasn't a money motivated decision, it was a head strong, I know what I want..and that's to get the hell out of my current home. Please, no matter what you think you know, you'll probably be sadly disappointed. You have my word, you will save more money in the long run with good decisions in the beginning. Hiring a good GC, dealing with a human being that translates how the plan really works, and questions if that is actually what you want. Penny wise, pound polish. that is me!!!!

And for those that are wondering; No, I did not prompt Leslie to say that.

pound polish, foolish, you get the point!!!!

Leslie, you are sadly disappointed in your house???

Some of us did the owner build. It was fine, did not last 2 years, used a stock plan, made great deal of profit. Couple walls were off, fixed quickly. My coworker also did the owner build with the stock plan, 7 month, his dad is an architect, helped him with finding crews, some legal, advising on cost to build. House was good. His biggest disappointment was picking cabinets too quickly w/o seeing them. He also made some good money on sale. My biggest regret was choosing more practical stuff [cost concerns] over wife suggestings, not using metal pan under the doors [no builder here does] skipping one outlet... Planning to build Again.

People have different ideas and expectations of what a house should be. Many will be happy with a stock plan from a contractor or the internet and pocket the savings. Others would see that approach as taking a sandwich to a banquet and want to hare professional designer. Others might want to have more control over the construction process and either act as the GC or hire an architect to represent them during construction.

We're all different, so its critically important to have a well informed understanding of yourself (and your partner) before choosing an approach. Unfortunately, we can't help much with that although I've seen people learn something important about themselves during a long design thread.

I've seen the prevailing opinion of the forum go from aggressive disdain and abuse towards architects to architects being respected and recommended. That should not make it more difficult to get help here if you let others know your preferences upfront.

When it comes to free advice, you should take what you like and ignore the rest. If someone dislikes your design, ask them to tell you why and to recommend alternate solutions. It won't take long to know if their advice is worth taking seriously. Its wise to thank everyone for their advice and keep your eyes on your goal.

pound polish, foolish, you get the point!!!!

Since my boss's name is Leslie and she's Polish, you have no idea how much entertainment this gave me.

And for those that are wondering; No, I did not prompt Leslie to say that.

BTW, Leslie, your recompense can be found in the second tree stump from the parking lot in the big park. :-)

On a more serious note, a satisfactory house can be built in any number of ways. The talents of the various participants will strongly influence this. And also the fact that "satisfactory" means different things to different people. Some folks are more interested in resale value. Others just want a place to sleep and eat. And still others of us expect more out of the process than a home that requires us to traipse through the kitchen with the dirty laundry.

You just have to keep in mind that the "Amazon-ized" idea of a click-and-build house isn't really going to get you anything different from an old catalog kit house. The variety might be wider, but you're still getting something engineered to appeal to the widest number of people. Maybe you're that people. Aces. Go for it.

However, if you're inclined to fuss-budget around until things are "you," you're better off with professional help. You really don't know what you don't know. And good design is 50% art and 50% knowledge base.

My parents didn't build a house until they walked through a model that my mother likes. Purely because she can't visualize from a floor plan what something will be like. More people are like my mother than will admit it. It takes a trained eye to look at a plan and spot the flaws. Not just the powder room that opens off the kitchen. But subtleties where proportions and flow will just be "off", furniture won't fit, etc. Designing a house is more than playing "room tetris" until you have things where you want them and they trying to slap a facade onto that. I think this has happened more and more since CAD became a part of the process. "Don't worry about the roof, the computer will plot it out." O.o

Are there some gems out there in the stock plan world? Sure. Pure mathematics suggest that they can't all be bad. The question then becomes, how good are you at picking a good one?

There's anther common reason for not using an architect: there are many areas of the US where there are few if any residential architects. Residential design in rural areas is not very profitable so it might be difficult to find any kind of independent home designer or drafter. In such a case, it helps to make that clear in a thread.

I am referring to my personality, diving in with no planning. Not listening to solid advise. Being offended when opinionated house posters blew it up with critiques.Taking offensive to snooty, condescending summaries about a plan I had chosen. Not seeing past the tone of the message, not looking for someone that would work for me and with me. REFUSING to respect that there is a reason we each excel in different walks of life. Just don't mess with the ones you don't like, same philosophy with all our life choices. You'll hate some, but, there are professionals that truly could have helped me build a better home. I was not receptive at all, just got angry. I'll show them! I Disregarded that the chosen CAD program had flow issues. I didn't even understand the basic drawings. it did, it does.I have zero ability to translate a 5x7 closet into how that closet actually works. The laundry room, same, way too small. pantry, too small. what do those little drawings mean! I have two trained architect friends, and I was certain they weren't understanding I had to move, quickly, with no time for frivolous refinements. Had to break ground by fall, all those laid off Craig's list tradesman would certainly have more time, give my project the thought it needed, and I assumed you wouldn't say you could dry wall or tile if you couldn't. I could not visual the literal size of the storage closet, I now proudly call the master closet, for instance. Being driven by trend threads, that seem good on paper. Was that what I really wanted? Didn't take time to put true thought into those decisions. Did I really want them? Some yes, some no. Driving on to save money, I assume anybody with a lick of vision can hire quality work. So not true, I paid 4 times for new drywall, new painting, and it still is full of ruffles and ridges. Hire the legit drywalling company, wouldn't have lost 2 months with redos, paid excessively, interest hike during the never ending down times, of course interest rates went up.3.99 start build, 5.75 end build rate. Passed on licensed company to do the drywall, He gave me a two week time frame, (way too long in my narrow world)and was 3,000.00 more. So, hire some bozo on Craigslist that promised to get it done in half the time at half the cost.That decision cost me TWO MONTHS! for that investment,I paid up front, they needed supplies, and had me handcuffed, they already had my money. "save 3,00"ultimately costing me literally 4 times that, project set back two months( they showed up about 2 hours every other day and I swear they had no idea how to drywall. Flunked electric 4 times for COO, still have switches/ outlets with no idea their purpose. So, to answer your question, I paid 18,000. for a master bathroom, the tile job and the layout and quality is not good. With proper forethought and workability analysis this would definitely have been avoided. I could have hired someone to explain basic size, what to demand in workmanship, As in earlier post, I am just verbalizing my specific experience and begging you to not to buy that dress at Barneys just because it's 90% off. We were rear ended in 14, can't walk, but, I still want that dress from Bsrneys because it used to be the perfect dress for me. realize needs change, and you if it's an impulsive decision, it will sit in your closet with all the other GREAT deals. I learned from these costly mistakes, and am sooo receptive after the fact, to remedy issues that should have been remedied prior to building!

You deserve all sorts of props, Leslie, for surviving that experience and being able to come back here and try to save another from repeating it.

Here's hoping your future endeavors go better, and that you'll be content. (And not too emotionally scarred!! You poor dear!)

I decided to use an architect after my online plan was shot down here when I asked for opinions, LOL. I am glad that I am using an architect to design our new 4000 sq ft home. She is a one person firm who is very personable, flexible and experienced. Her fee is also very affordable and she seems just as excited as we are about the project. She visited my site and a model home that I wanted her to use in designing the "feel" of the home. I will be signing the contract tomorrow.

I'm glad you found an architect you like. I think you'll be happy you've invested in great design.

Shola, I'm looking forward to seeing what your architect comes up with for you. Please don't be a stranger.

@leslie, Very impressed with your candidness and openness. Please, don’t be too hard on yourself, seems like you learned a lot, not only about house building but about yourself. Life lessons, that some never evee learn about. Take care and thank you for sharing and educating others. (:

Shola, please share your plans.!

I will surely share the plans when it's completed in about 8 weeks.