@Ontario_Canada5a_USDA4b Holy Cow! What a jaw dropping fabulous garden the D’Esopo estate has! I’d not heard of it so looked it up & it has quite an interesting story. It’s in Avon,CT - here’’s a link to a piece about it Christie D’Esopos Flower House The writer states that Chrissie works 12-15 hours a day in garden & it’s obvious why. All of that time could be spent doing deadheading & light pruning! Thanks so much for sharing that photo!

Your AI garden is pretty neat too - looks like a fairy garden in Ireland - or, I guess that would be leprechaun garden? The pic gave me an idea. See the round rock with the hole / depression in it at bottom of pic? What about one of those basalt bowls which are polished in center & used as a natural water collection for a bird / animal bath placed in a dry creek bed? I also like spaciousness - or open space & while maybe not minimilistic designs, I don’t like too busy & fussy things either interior or exterior. I’ve learned that gardens look best with some negative space. I’ve also learned that where bare soil exists, weeds will come. So, a happy medium is good.

Still reading, researching, pondering my project. Here’s 2 pics of nearby neighborhood yards where grass taken out a couple years ago for one & a few months ago for another. There are points I both like & dislike about each for my yard but they give me points to consider. The ground cover pics are already in my front yard, are both slow growing & evergreen. I’m wondering about using more of these same instead of large swaths of mulch between conifers.

The neighbors:

This is a 2 story & front yard not as deep or wide as mine.

This is also a 2 story & a corner house so front yard goes past front of house on this one side & then along front entry to drive. Yard isn’t as wide as mine. This one has more large plantings behind the hinoki on left. Public sidewalk runs along front & side.

Ground-covers I have already

I much prefer the second garden. It's a nice balance of hardscape, negative space and statement plants. The first appears as more of a collector's hodge-podge - too many different plants, no focal point, no negative space. Looks cluttered and messy......and undesigned.

I agree with gardengal.

Does the landscaper you're meeting with have expertise in designing dry creek beds?

@Eileen,

kw, I hope you dont mind me asking Eileen a question. Eileen, I would like to do paths such as yours in my backyard. The typical instructions im finding says to add a border to contain the gravel, add weed barrier and 4” gravel. I like the way yours look. More of a natural transition between plants and gravel. How was this achieved? Thank you!

Kitch4me, I don’t mind at all as the answer might help me too.

@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) - I do like how the 2nd garden looks better than the 1st one too - for now. I think it’s the plant choice that makes me pause & for me it’s overplanted. The small yellow plants next to the dry creek bed are a Cistus rock rose ”Mickie”- info says 18” x 36”. I had 5 lining a path in back yard & after some years took them out last year as I couldn’t prune fast enough to keep them anywhere near the stated size! There’s another plant that’s several places in her scape that can’t be seen in picture -Goshinki False Holly. I have 3 of them in a border - they’re easier to keep to size but do require pruning after a few years. The neighbor who has this yard shared info with me on who designed & installed & cost. It was a larger landscape company. She also said she swapped out many of the plant choices in design & I don’t know what the original plan called for. She loves to snip away at her plants so this may be the perfect yard for her. I love that she freely shared info with me and gave me so much to think about! The first yard is across the street from that second one. It actually has a dry creek bisecting it but it ends at driveway & probably should have gone towards sidewalk - the front so it can be seen & ’invites’ you into yard.

Eileen - (can’t tag you!) Yes, she does have expertise in dry creek beds & hardscape design per the pics in her portfolio. She also has a strong design education & background in exterior & interior design & photography. She does have her own company. She doesn’t employ landscape staff to do installation but does recommend different companies. They bid & negotiate independent of her. She will project manage & does the plant & hardscape placement if the customer is working with any of those contractors.

We have clay soil so the dirt doesn't erode or shift. We'd have to level the border material and we weren't up to that so we skipped it. All we did was dig down about 4" to remove the sod, line it with landscaping fabric and fill with 1/4 minus crushed gravel. The gravel does decompose into soil and become very compact. We did this in 2016 and need to add an inch of new gravel this year.

This is freshly-dug and is just the bare soil.

Photo taken a few days ago. Still adding and subtracting plants. I try to select plants that soften the edges.

so helpful, thank you!

You're welcome. Start a thread or message me if you need more information.

Back to the dry creek bed....I haven't found them appealing and I think I've figured out why. The rocks are too big and uniform. You can tell Nature didn't deposit them-- the stone yard did.

Sunset Magazine's photo with fewer large stones and smaller pebbles looks more natural to me. We talk about using negative space in gardens to rest the eye. I think you need that in the creek bed too, which small pebbles provide. I feel that your neighbor's bed would look better with smaller pebbles. That bed is too chunky and therefore very busy.

Eileen, I see just what you mean! Thinking about what you’ve said & I don’t think I’ve ever seen a manufactured dry bed like you show. Seems like the size of the bed & of the landscape being done might determine size of rock that looks best. Is this picture in a recent edition of Sunset Magazine? I’d be interested in reading the piece with this pic & my local library might be a source for it. I’ll definitly put this on my list of things to talk about with designer.

I'm glad you see what I mean. I'm so detail-oriented! Most people would look at a dry creek bed and say "Rocks! Cool!" I'd be forever rearranging the rocks.

This is the only link I can find associated with the photo. It's not the full article. Sunset probably has other articles that would be helpful.

https://www.sunset.com/garden/backyard-projects/build-dry-creek-bed

Compare the Sunset photo to this photo that looks like the stone yard truck pulled up and dumped them.

Eileen, I’ve just done a search on dry creek beds & disappeared down that rabbit hole for awhile - sooo many varying ideas & pics! Thank you for bringing this important point up. I’ve added it to my list for discussion. Another point I’m adding is possibility of a dwarf Gingko shrub. I love Gingko trees which leaf images are used in many Arts & Crafts style settings. Arts & Crafts era is my fave with Art Nouveau a close second. Gingko is a conifer & a prehistoric one at that. A few years ago I learned about the newer dwarf variety - deciduous of course but very slow grower & amenable to pruning if ever needed. That would be a statement plant & focal point for sure!

Here’s another nice one

@Little Bird That’s a very pretty scape LB. Puts me in mind of a cottage garden. I like the pathway in it. My thought is I would want a ’quieter’ space in terms of flowers just bc of maintenance needed. But, some color & softness will be needed so I’m thinking about small azalea shrubs and my fave planting - Coral Bells / Heuchera. I have day lilies out there & would want them to stay or be reused somewhere.

It’s another very wet & cool day here in my hood - 53 & 100% precip & tomorrow as well 😒 But, Wednesday’s forecast is only 10% precip & 68 degrees!! Good omen I think as Wednesday is design appointment & it would be nice to not be wearing rain gear while outside looking at the area! Thursday’s forecast is low 80’s - typical PNW - feast or famine. Watching national weather today with floods & pending tornadoes in south & midwest keeps me from whining much about our wet. We do have some flooded roads since storm drains can’t keep up but that’s small potatoes compared to what’s going on elsewhere!

My suggestion would be to start small. Either come up with an overall plan that will eventually be no lawn, but break it down in parts and do one part at a time, in case once you start taking care of more garden, you wish you had more lawn back. [g] Or just choose the plants you love the best and just add another bed to the area of lawn and plant those. And keep adding more beds, so you get used to maintaining more garden and used to not looking at lawn.

KW, I can’t wait to see your design! Are you planning to install it all at once? Or a little bit every year?

@Little Bird We think once we’ve made the decision we’ll just go for it! There’s no guarantees for tomorrow & if we have the resources, why not? I also think the resulting design will be more cohesive & unified done all at the same time. I think this is more important for a front & public facing area. Maybe I’d take a slower approach with a backyard. We will take all the time we feel like we need to arrive at a design decision though. I’m hopeful I’ll have both paper & electronic copies for that.

@prairiemoon2 z6b MA Your suggestion to start small is very sound & well taken. By way of my history, I think I can say we have sort of done that part. In 2019 we had work done to add a spigot on the far side of yard - something we missed in our build in 2012. We also had new sod installed (again) and we reduced the footprint of the lawn a bit. The border with the path & Elfin Thyme was all lawn & the far border in my first pic was also all lawn - that granite pagoda house was way back in the narrow border between us & neighbors. So much farther back I realized it was difficult to know which yard it belonged to! 😱 So, that was a baby step towards lawn reduction but it was a start. Increasing the planting border gave me the opportunity to install mini & dwarf conifers & I’ve had lots of fun with that & it’s why the idea of a small scale conifer garden is so appealing to me. This would be a low maintenance landscape - not nearly the work required for lots of flowering shrubs and flowers. The catalyst for this current conversation about removing lawn began with my husband bemoaning all the undesirable grasses popping up. He does all the lawn maintenance- setting irrigation, applying pre-emergents & fertilizers, mowing, edging etc. It’s impossible to keep weedy grasses out of the turf unless birds, squirels & wind disappear. We also both understand the environmental issues with maintaining turf. We looked around our neighborhood and realized several neighbors have already gone down the path of no lawn landscapes & so here we are today, taking our first step meeting with a Pro who does landscape design as their primary work.

@Little Bird I absolutely will come back with info on how this appointment turns out. It’s a consult so next step would be drawing up design. I have my list printed out so I won’t struggle to remember all the points I want to ask / address. My Project Manager background coming back to me 😆 I know just what you mean about leaving space for growth. I have done exactly that - overplanted for a lush & full look. I have since learned about the value of ”negative space”. But, this is why I need a designer - I do recognize my limitations!

Do you have conifers in the backyard that get part sun? I'd love to add a conifer to my yard but I have only one area where it gets some morning sun and a few hours of hot afternoon sun. We had a large Japanese umbrella pine but had to take it out because one side was shaded and it was full of bare branches.

I posted this photo in another thread where her creek bed runs between two lawns. If you did want to keep some lawn, this is the way to design it so that there's a natural transition from lawn to creek bed. Note that they used smaller pebbles. Don't you think smaller pebbles would be easier to install than the river rock that everyone uses?The plantings are really nice here too.

Eileen - I had to look your tree up to remind myself what it was. We do have conifers in back that receive part sun but none are of the pine family - i..e. Picea, abies. You’ll see in my 1st pic those old growth Douglas Firs on property behind me & that gives me enough of that ilk! I do have 3 extremely tall weeping Alaskan Cedars on north side of house - you can pick them out in my 1st pic at top left. They went in after 2 story house built too close next to us. I also have Yews - Taxus Fastigate Standishii - narrow, upright & yellow. They are next to fence with backs facing the big firs / east with their fronts facing house / west. Everything in that bed that runs from north to south & faces west, tends to have growth leaning towards the sun they receive all afternoon. Plants with growth taller than fence receive dappled morning light so they are thinner in back - just like your Umbrella Pine. I have the same challenge you face with your yard! I also have a couple Japanese maples along the fence line & they do better on the shaded side because they have more open branching & so get better light. Maybe that’s an option for a tree instead of a conifer.

I love the creek bed you posted & have saved in my folder for discussion. Thank you! It appeals to me because the smaller rock & pebbles look more natural & it seems to me this kind of bed could do double duty as a path to use for access to plants to work on them. The larger rock creek beds are really ankle breakers if one is trying to walk in them for any reason. I’ve no idea if smaller rock is easier to install but I wondered if it would be less costly. It struck me though that the newer yard in my neighborhood - the pic I posted - with the larger rock - would’ve benefitted from use of smaller rock. That yard isn’t very wide across the front - it’s deeper along the side as shown in pic. Smaller size rock might’ve been a better scale for it.

I've killed off more than 7000 sq.ft of grass . But with a 100 X 485 yard , lots left....proceed slow but sure

ron

@plantkiller_il_5 Hi Ron, what a beautiful landscape you’ve created with great placement & use of islands of conifers accented by colorful grasses and sage. I’m thinking that’s Russian Sage & Blood Grass in the mix? I know you have many grand conifers around your home - I guess that’s what’s taken the place of your 7K sq ft of grass. I have only 10K sq ft & quite a bit of that is taken up with a smaller home & big garage. So, not too much left for green things! I think I need to proceed slowly with design but maybe not so much with installation. 😊 I’m thinking the back bone of my plantings will be mini & dwarf conifers with some smaller hinoki shrub sizes in & some azaleas for color. The scale of the dwarf & mini conifers might be a good balance. I love my purple stonecrop that I’ve been cultivating to spread in the current border so maybe more of plants like that too. We’ll see what the pro designer thinks. Thanks for weighing in & especially for sharing your photo.

"Have you removed all grass from your front yard..."

So many times, in my own gardens and clients gardens, that I've lost count, and I'm in the process of doing it again at our latest place. I have not read this very long thread but here are my $.02.

I create rooms in gardens, and the front garden should be another room, with walls. A room you can walk through, admire the art on the walls, the patterns of the floor & ceiling, the chandeliers. A room you can even sit in for a spell, if the environs encourage that, and in my opinion, they should. That means furniture. Flat top boulders, or a sitting wall, if you're afraid of theft.

I also encourage as many patios as are necessary, and in as many places as necessary, to find a comfortable spot to hang out (or garden!) as the weather conditions change throughout the day, and throughout the year. My front garden is unbearable at 4pm in August, (but I'm doing everything I can to change that!) but often delightful in February, while the back garden and patio are just the opposite.

@artinnature Thanks so much for chiming in & sharing your $.02! Your philosphy on gardens resonates with me. I’m not sure how the idea of ’rooms’ would work in my front yard but certainly it can be a place to wander through rather than one to walk around. It can’t be seen in my first picture but my front entry is a sitting porch. It has 2 comfy rockers, pillows, tables, art on walls & even a hidden shade that comes down to shade seating from afternoon sun. It’s a great place for morning coffee or evening wine. Your front garden must face west as mine does. Unbearable in August is the clue!

Yes, KW , blood grass & Russian sage which I can't do without,,they say , plant it in rocks & it will live forever... & I have like 35 grasses scattered about .

ron

Today's the big day! Woohoo!!

Eileen, indeed it is a big day! Appointment with designer confirmed. Have another smaller project going on in backyard too. Our water feature is being ’remodeled’ also for easier maintenance under the big fir trees. Swapping out the flat bubbler rock for basalt colums & reusing the flat rock over the small rocky rocks in the basin. New pump needs install for more water lift. 2 goals - give the feature more height for more prominence in yard & make the surface easier to blow off fir tree debris from above. Here’s the before

That's very nice! I can see where basalt columns will improve it.

Thanks Eileen! We’d been thinking about doing this piece since last fall so we took our time with it. Or, it took time for weather to be good enough to be working in water. We picked 3 basalt columns with lots of orange in them to go with the flat rock that’s already there & will be reused. Also setting a rock water catch basin for bird bath. The grass next to water feature - thinking of removing too if we go forward with front yard redo. We removed @ 1/3 of it few years ago as slope made it too hard to mow. You can see the division in my 2nd pic by the bird bath. That is Brass Buttons / Leptinella. It’s on the other side of back yard too & has done really well. A nice soft walk on ground cover that doggies like too.

I'd probably put a tree there if not the lawn. I think there's enough going on that you don't need to add more color, texture, etc. Or an herb garden, but that might be too messy for your manicured yard.

Okay all Houzz friends - as promised, here’s my update on the consult appointment I had today with a pro. She gave me lots to think about & some feedback. She wasn’t too interested (my reaction) in my vision of a garden with mostly mini & dwarf conifers explaining that plant selection is the last step. Who knew? Next step is a concept drawing & we talk about that & tweak etc. Then comes measuring the space - a very technical process. A layout created & approved. Plant selection last. Then comes lining up contractors. If her preferred contractors are used she will oversee the plant placement on site. She also would select all the plants. She did like many of the plants I already have & some she hadn’t seen in a garden setting before. She did say that a vertical element would be a really good thing - like a tree. Eileen - she’s talking your language! 😊 I asked about a Yew like one that I have & she said no, not columnar but vertical & some width. Okay, okay everyone! One thing she said is that my front yard is ”very tight” & ”very round” - all the shapes are round. 😆 Well, yes, okay I see that. I got out my cutters after she left. I don’t shear anything, I prune by the cut & snip method - more natural. But, regardless of what happens going forward on this project, some of my round plants that aren’t conifers are being taken out.

Here’s an update on my water feature bubbler project - they’ll be back at 7:30 tomorrow. The 3 columns laying there are basalt. We chose them with the orangey color because they go with the flat rock that was layered in the bubbler & that will be reused on top of the loose rock. The smaller piece in foreground is the bowl that will catch water from the columns & be a bird bath.

It sounds like it's going to be a long process. Does that mean that you won't plant until fall? That makes sense since you plan on conifers, shrubs and perhaps a tree.

It sounds like she's got an aversion to what is called "meatball" shrubs and pruning method. Most evergreens do have a rounded habit so what would she replace them with? How far will she stray from the more manicured style that has been the base of your landscaping, and is that what you want?

Hi Eileen - agree it’s going to be a longer process & we assumed that based on scheduling for the skills needed. Summer is very busy time! And, yes, fall is for planting, right? I don’t know if the designer has an aversion to round shrubs & conifers or if it’s her design eye wanting the contrasts of shapes & heights. As she explained, plant selection is last so I’ve no idea what she’d use. She did comment I have no grasses & that she liked the day lillies in that small border in my 2nd pic because they flower & are ’grass like’.. I’m sure it’s the movement of grasses she likes. In the meantime, here’s our finished water feature - we love it! I’d taken out the smaller plants behind it so I’m now working on what to do there.

"The larger rock creek beds are really ankle breakers if one is trying to walk in them for any reason."

You mentioned aging in place in your original post.

I'm an RN with a few years home care experience; part of my job was looking for potential safety concerns in the home. I do think you're right that the small stones would be easier to navigate than all those big round stones. And it looks good like that. But even with mostly gravel, maintaining and weeding a dry creek bed might become hazardous - a fall risk - BEFORE mowing the flat grassy yard would have been difficult. Please only include the creek bed if you are willing to outsource the maintenance of it as soon as there is any mobility/vision concern.

This concludes my safety lecture. All the best with your yard renovation! You have a beautiful home and yard, and lots of good ideas here.

I would nix any deciduous trees. I have to lightly rake my gravel path several times a week just from the debris that falls out of a 60' tree that shades most of my backyard. In fall it's a nightmare to clean up the leaves, especially in the PNW where leaves may fall well into our rainy season. Often I'm cleaning up leaves in spring. Was glad we got such nice weather last month so that we could mulch-mow them and dress our beds with them.

Sarah B. - I appreciate your good advice on hazards of dry creek beds with regard to fall risks. I absolutely plan to hire able bodied people to do home maintenance things we should not be doing because of personal risk hazard and not wait until the day we cannot be doing the task because we’re not physically able. We already have a guy who cleans our roof & gutters ( we live under fir trees) and another who cleans our windows. I have a strongly ingrained fear of falling, breaking something & winding up either immobile or having to use mobility aids to get around. Caring for my extremely mobile mom who lived in an independent living retirement community is what opened my eyes. Though my mom, in her early 90’s then, didn’t need even a cane or walker, I saw all those in both independent living and the assisted living community side, who needed them and badly. Getting to that point of need due to simple body failure or illness is quite different than having an injury caused by something avoidable. So, I do appreciate your reinforcement to my plan!

Kathy

Eileen, That’s exactly what I told the designer - If it’s critical for design that a tree be placed okay, but no deciduous trees! There are already 2 maples in front yard borders & 6 - yes SIX maples in back yard planting beds. Add to that the 3 giant Douglas Firs on the property behind us & it’s clear that we’re well acquainted with clean up required for trees, deciduous or not.

I'm not against trees and even recommended them to you, but not near gravel and rocks!

Eileen, anyone living in PNW as you & I do is well acquainted with the concern for protectction & expansion of our regional tree canopy! But, for sure, the hardscape that should be a piece of my conifir garden vision does not lend itself to being compatible with lots of leaf fall! I’m hoping I do receive a concept design in @ a week. I think the purpose is to give us something specific to talk about for an actual design.

KW, I saw another grass-less lawn today. This one had undulating lumps and blobs, probably with colors sprinkled throughout that come in at different times. How is the progress with your designer?

@Little Bird - that grass-less scape looks like a mono-scape - filled with just a few of the same plant. Almost formal looking but serene feeling. My first reaction was ”look at all the rounds!” Remember the designer’s comment to me about all the ’rounds’ in my yard? 🤣 But, as to design progress she texted me yesterday saying she’s”…trying to finish your proposal…should be able to get it to you tomorrow.” Stay tuned for that - I’m not sure what to expect for a ’concept plan’ as she said she’d draw out but I am excited to see it as my next step in this project. In the meantime I’ve been taking advantage of our sunny but coolish weather & have taken out 4 shrubs along front entry & stone path across front of house to open it up & create the ’negative space’ that designers like. I divided the Coral Bell / Heuchera lining the path & am using them for filler & color while new Firepower Dwarf Nandina fill in. I put in 2 new shrubs + 2 miniature conifers. The dwarf shore pine at left & Viridis Maple at right are now the main event in this space. That’s 6’+ between the chimney pot on left & maple on right so lots of room for Firepower there. The bright green small shrub in center is the new Firepower. I’m thinking the elfin thyme will now spread into bed too - it’s just starting to bloom - needs some heat to do that.

This is 2nd firepower behind the rock. Some of the coral bells looking sad but if don’t perk up I’ll replace. The mini conifers will be @ 1x1’s.

Is this your first experience with nandina? I have the dwarf Gulf Stream and I have to pull the old leaves off every spring because they look ugly with all the pretty red new growth. It's turned all green already though.

I think my favorite small shrub is lonicera nitida--boxleaf honeysuckle. I have grown Edmee Gold and Twiggy for about ten years and added Lemon Beauty, a variegated form, along my front porch in the fall of 2022.

Haha, there are a lot of balls on that landscape. I hope you don’t get rid of all yours though - I think it actually looks nice. I like the splashes of color that you have too. Look forward to seeing what your designer comes up with!

Eileen - I have a small hedge of the lonicera nitida! Has been in for years & I finally sheared it hard a couple years ago to regain control. I usually use my grab & snip pruning style with it so it’s softer. I learned that any branches touching ground root!! Nandina - not my first experience at all. I have both Gulf Stream & Brandy Wine in back yard & I do clip out a few older branchlets on Gulf Stream & full canes on the taller, thinner leafed Brandy Wine to keep them tidy. This FirePower seems a newer cultivar & I’d read it doesn’t bloom which means no berries. I look for that feature now after learning nandina berries are toxic to birds. I cut off the spent flowers of types that make berries now.

Forgot to say the Firepower is listed as a slow grower & max 3x3 at most. This will leave much more open space around each of them in the 2 spots I planted them in.

That's Lemon Beauty! Can't wait for it to grow up like yours! I like the shape of the long branches on my Edmee Gold and haven't sheared them. I do have to prune it to open it up though. I replanted a rooted section of it this spring. In the photo I posted here two weeks ago, you can see it--it's that big yellow shrub. I see there's also a variegated one called Silver Beauty. I'd like one if I didn't have three already.

I didn't know that nandina berries are toxic. I only get one stem of flowers so I'll be sure to prune it off. It doesn't add anything to the shrub anyway.