I haven't see your plan in a while and I'm not sure of all the things you've considered, but especially with no uppers and limited storage in the kitchen itself, I'd like to have that pantry up front -- either opening into the kitchen itself or to the side of the fridge. I'm also not sure if the zigzag in the butler's pantry is for view through from the dining room or some other consideration, but I'm not sure I'd want to be zigging or zagging with a big turkey on a platter or all the other dishes that would go from kitchen to dining table. It's visually interesting, but I think it could be hard to work in between those two pantries. I know that's not what you want to hear on a "final final" -- but do think about how you cook and entertain and make sure it will work well for you.

Hey Lascatx-

I linked the original New Layout thread so you can get an idea of how we got here.

The opening to the patry was to the right of the fridge, but the fridge seemed like it was floating off in never never land. I figured I would only have direct access to the fridge or the pantry and decided to go with the fridge. I would like to know if you think this is a bad decision on my part.

The main wall, where the stove is, is approx 21' and will be all lower cabinets. Plus, the island is about 10' and will also have lots of storage. I am also planning uppers and lowers in the Butler's Pantry. The Butler's Pantry will house things I don't use everyday and will also have a dishwasher for those items. I truly think the main kitchen will have enough storage for everything. This may be naive but I'm currently working with 1/3 of the storage capacity and everything fits, tightly but it fits.

I am worries about the zig zagging but we have not been able to come up with a solution. I am open to any ideas.

Here is a link that might be useful: First version of new layout

The zig zag seems tight to me. Do you need the storage and counter space the L offers in the butler's pantry? If you can do with less, I'd just have the straight run of cabinets so when you come through that doorway, you don't have to navigate around the corner of the cabinets. (hip bumper...ouch!)

I like the fridge solution, and the pantry solution is clever. Not perfect, but workable.

Your kitchen layout is almost identicle to mine-including the 60" range and prep sink in the island. We also have no upper cabinets. I agree with the above post, If you don't need the counter, I would have the butler's pantry walk straight through. That would open up about 3 feet next to the frige. You can put a pantry cabinet there for things you need more frequently, or additonal counter space. Where is your microwave?

I didn't read the other post, so I don't know if someone else may have suggested this. Have you considered putting a dishwasher in the butler's pantry? It seems like if you are clearing the table from an extravaganza dinner, that would be so convenient.

I'm more than a little jealous that you're going to have both a walk-in pantry AND a butler's pantry. I think your layout looks wonderful!

I like this a lot! The whole butler's pantry/food pantry thing flows much better with the openings this way round.

Other than the zigzag. But if that's open counter as you enter the BP at least you can put things down. Re hips, the end of the L would be a perfect place for a rounded corner, inc. cabinet.

The issues I see as reasons for keeping the door where it is:

• Path for dog out the door not walking through either pantry.

• Just as much heavy and awkward carried from food pantry as carried through butler's pantry

• Condensed route for carrying in groceries

• Good separation of spaces and a certain amount of symmetry.

There are trade-offs in everything, but when I remember where you started and see where you've come to, I'm awestruck. The amount of spaciousness you've gained is creating the inconveniences. The old-time cabin, with its keeping room and sleeping alcove, was the most convenient because everything was just there (except the privy--ouch!).

You've gained a great room with casual family seating/media center (inc. terrace!), splendid views, casual eating, and large, long kitchen. Plus a spacious formal dining room, huge butler's pantry, and walk-in pantry. You've lost the gracious curving staircase and big closet room but gained an elevator. Plus, you have a formal seating parlor.

I love the open side of the dining room with that gallery wall by the stairs. I don't usually say kill storage, but I'm glad you got the elevator in, especially for bringing wine upstairs. ;) You've gotten rid of all the problems. While there are quirks, like the zigzag, all houses have them.

As to the kitchen layout, it's fine, given the invisible prep sink. The next thing is to figure out the little details.

Are you still planning to put all the small appliances in the butler's pantry? I think the place for a beverage fridge might be on the clean-up sink side of the kitchen. I see people hanging out in the kitchen/media area. It seems odd to make them walk past the main fridge to get beverages. Depending on what you use a microwave for, same thing. Wouldn't a drawer MW, or small one in the kitchen have a lot of usage for kitchen dwellers? In the island so it wouldn't show? I get it that the BP is centrally located, but for formal entertaining one usually brings out beverages on a tray or cart, or sets up a bar. It's the day to day I'm thinking about.

Also, start thinking about storage specifics and point of use: Where does the mop live? And broom and vacuum? Other cleaning supplies? Where are your spices? Your knives? Cutting boards, baking supplies, pet food/accessories/meds/bowls? Etc. Etc.

I like pps7's suggestion. That would put your most frequently used pantry items in the kitchen and other items back in the storage area.

On the other hand, I personally think it would look cool to have an opening on either side of the frig. If you moved the frig left, you could have an opening directly to the pantry and another opening directly to the butler's pantry. I think you would actually gain some wall space(not sure if you need it) if you closed those 2 areas off to eachother.

SFCityDweller,

Wow, I skimmed the previous thread and you have come a long way! My only comment is in regards to the glass cabinet doors. Most people aren't aware of this but textured glass, like seedy, granite, waterglass, etc. comes in color as well as clear. Plus there are more than those three textures to choose from. Go online and check out SpectrumGlass.com, select stained glass and then I think it is products to see all of the possibilities you have. The texture I am leaning toward for our cabinets is rough rolled in aqua myself! ;)

I am looking forward to seeing pictures and drawings at our gathering next week!

Wow, that is so far from where you started (and it looks great)! Is that a pocket door next to the fridge by the stairs? If not, is there a possibility that it could be? It seemed (to me at least) that that was a good solution to the trash exit/ grocery entrance and dog entrance issue. I realize that "floats" the fridge a little more by pushing it to toward the room, but that would also straigthen the zig-zag in the pantry.

you could shift the pantry door from the kitchen a bit to the left and run the walkway straight thru to the DR. close off the doorway there now from BP to DR and put a side run of cabs there.

you should then end up with a small area inside the door from the kitchen into the pantry area and toward the back of the fridge that might be a good place for a little closet for the mop, broom and vac.

you'd still have a walkway to the back door for the dogs without entering either pantry.

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the advice! Sorry it has taken me all day to respond. I had a busy day at work that limited my GW access. So sad. I want to apologize in advance if I missed anyone!!

Things I would like to clear up:
There is going to be a DW in the ButlerÂs Pantry along with a WD.
My MW and main WD will be in the island.
The bottom (by the corner window) 36Â of my long counter run is the proposed Dog Garage

Rhome-
I like the idea of a straight run of cabs, so no hip bumping. I agree not perfect, but this seems to be the best solution so far. Any other ideas?

PPS7-
Love it! Can I just move into your house? Do you find storage an issues? Do vistors even notice you have no uppers? Any pictures you would like to share ?
IÂm going to have to play around with the idea of moving the door. I never even considered pantry cabinets, stupid me.

Arlosmom-
Thanks! I canÂt wait for it to become a reality!

Plllog-
I cannot believe this is the same kitchen I started with! I will have to post pictures of what it looks like today, you will die!

I really like separation of spaces and symmetry this plan has. The reason I was okay with the zig zag was because of the open counter and if I had a large dish I could also put it down, rearrange, and then go around the corner. I know an extra step, but I think I may be willing to live with it.

The curved/ elliptical staircase!! What a conversation that was! We decided against it for two reason the main being $$$ and the second because it seems the popular choice right now and we donÂt want the house to scream I was remodeled in 2010. I did love it, and it will be missed.

The elevator is walking a thin line as well, mainly because it decreases the size of DHÂs wine room. Luckily, that is decision we can make down the line.
IÂm thinking small appliances may live in the super Susan or the island so they are more accessible. Appliances that get little use will live in the butlerÂs pantry, but my go to items IÂve decided need to be in the kitchen.

Good points regarding the Bev fridge. The DH is still not convinced we need one and I donÂt want one in the main kitchen. I agree with you that the odds of someone getting up from a formal dinner party to walk into the ButlerÂs pantry to get a coke are slim! The Bev Fridge may be out.

You ask such thought provoking questions! I was going to have a Broom closet built into the pantry. The vacuum is going to live in the Elevator! HAHAH. I actually wanted to put a vacuum on every floor but the DH thought I was crazy. Obviously, he doesnÂt vacuum or lug vacuums up and down stairs. IÂm also going to have a spice pull out to one side of the stove and baking sheets to the other. I plan on getting a knife insert for a draw in the main kitchen and storing cutting boards in a neighboring draw. Baron (my fur-[child) will end up with his own section in the pantry. He eats mostly fresh food so that will be in the...

Will the island be centered on the range? It looks close, but not quite. Do you need the full length, or can you shorten it to do make it happen? It'll give maybe a little more room in front of the fridge, but that could be good. I'm not a stickler for centering, but you've got symmetry with the range and the windows, and it might bother you in the view from the seating area if the island is just a little off.

It's not a big thing at all, but it's all I got! I really like this plan. You came such a long way from the kitchen plans in the other area.

To ease the zigzag in the Butler's Pantry could you just clip the corner of the counter in the doorway? I am not a big person for random 45 angles, but I think doing that there might be helpful.

I would like it centered. I didn't even realize it wasn't! However, I really wanted seating for 5 but I could live with 4. If I went to 4 seats the aisle would be larger in front of the fridge then in front of the sink. HMMM.

Me? My suggestions are more for the butler's pantry. One thing I had to have in the new kitchen is horizontal tray storage. This is my mother's design and it works so well! The cabinet maker makes an inner box for a wide cupboard, with slits a few inches apart for 3/8" plywood shelves. They can pull out if needed, but usually it isn't needed. This a a great way to store all those big flat things like the hot tray, serving trays, place mats, turkey platters, etc., etc. I also have vertical storage for smaller, round platters with a shelf above for the doilies.

My company flatware is cheap junk that came in its own chests, so I didn't bother with this, but if you have stackable silver, putting fitted holders covered with silvercloth in drawers makes putting the flatware away easy. My good kitchen flatware doesn't stack or I would have done it for the everyday stuff, minus the silvercloth.

As to the rest, it sounds like you already have good plans. We each work in different ways, and have different ideas of what needs to be close at hand. So long as you have good places for it all, that's what matters. I'm not sure that the mop in the pantry is a great idea, but I don't see anywhere better.

Love the idea of the elevator as a vacuum closet!!!! I seem to have acquired a number of old vacuum cleaners, but the one that lives upstairs never gets used because the Rainbow is so much better. It gets carried up and down. Maybe a good compromise would be to have a handheld dirt devil or electric broom on every level, and just the one main vac? It's the attachments that eat up storage space!

Idea: Instead of the beverage fridge in the BP, how about a wine fridge? After all, it's the bottles that are the butler's main purview anyway. That gives a little point of use storage, lets the man have his undercounter fridge, and makes up for a little lost wineroom storage.

Re the lost wine storage, carrying multiple bottles of wine upstairs without shaking them every time you have dinner guests could get really old. Call the elevator an oversized dumbwaiter/vacuum closet. And it doesn't really matter about the size of the wine room. I've never seen a wine cellar with room for more than a couple more cases. Usually, the racks are full and there are a few cases on the floor. It's one of those Murphy's type principles. If there's room for a couple cases of today's find, today's find will find a way in and tomorrow's find will be a few bottles only or sit on the floor. True if you have room for 100 bottles, 2000 bottles, or 10000 bottles. If there isn't enough room for things he buys young and wants to lay down, there's always rent-a-vault.

Re the stairs, they were pretty, but I think the straight stairs are also more what one expects to see in an older house shaped like yours, so I totally agree with you on the design age. Moreover, I think that gallery wall seen though the open side of the dining room is going to...

Re the island, draw in the prep sink first, and do the elevations. It may well be that the sink and faucet will combine visually with the range to create a more symmetric overall look. Kind of interlocking.

We have broken ground yet!!!I'll let you know in about a year. I wish I could upload my floorplan- I will need to figure out how. The wall with the range will have an 10" deep open shelf for storage. Plus, instead of a walk in pantry we have 2 very large pantry cabinets on either side of the fridge. Our dining room is where your media room is. Instead of a butler's pantry we have a wall of cabinets in the dining room with the wine fride- about 12 linear feet. That area has upper cabinets and will store stuff I don't use everyday. Can't wait to see your pics- when do you start?

Floorplan below. There area few changes-our island is all one level and no upper cabinets.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1486480}}

PalimpsIest-
Great idea! I will need to get a 3D image from the cabinet maker so I can tweak everything.

Plllog-
You really are a fountain of information!!

Your motherÂs design is brilliant. I will definitely have to copy it! I think that is something for the ButlerÂs Pantry, maybe the bottom of the Hutch! The Hutch is going to be the recessed 48Â area to the bottom right of the BP.
IÂm going to have at least two drawers in the BP fitted with silvercloth and inserts for the good silver.

My architect came up with the vacuum in the elevator! The DH almost fell out of his chair. If we donÂt do the elevator the main and top floor will have large closets with plenty of room for extra vacuums!

The DH isnÂt into a wine fridge. He thinks it is overkill in addition to the wine room. Maybe we will just do without and have extra storage space.

I have used that argument numerous times and the DH is not buying it! He says we currently carry everything up two flights of stairs so what is one more flight. I also reminded him he would never have to carry my luggage down three flights of stairs!

IÂm pretty sure in about 3-5yrs his wine cellar will have miraculously shrunk and cases will be pilled everywhere just like today. Oh, and he is terrified of rent-a-vault. He could never let someone else touch his precious vino!

The gallery wall is going to be amazing. However, I fear it will be empty for awhile, since the reno is already over budget!

PPs7-
I think we may have you beat! We are not even fully permitted yet, and we started the process in April! The latest expected start date is Feb 1, 2010 and 12-16mths later are house will be done!

Your kitchen is exactly like mine! I like the pantry cabinets flanking the fridge that is a great idea.

I quickly put in where I envision items living. I'm still waiting for the Architect to get back to me regarding moving the doorway, so this is where I would put things in 'L' plan.

-The SS will hold small appliances.
-Mixing bowls will probably go on the bottom tray of one of the pots and pans storage areas. I think I will only need one 36' cabinet to hold all my pots and pans. So, the second area would be more of a baking dish/bowl/etc storage area.
-The cabinet to the left of the DW will be tupperware and storage items
-For the coffee mugs and glass storage I was thinking either a pullout or shelves on the side of the island. I'm not sure I want doors on the sides of my island.
-Dishes will be in drawers.
-MW and WD will be stacked next to the PS
-The 'L' will house appliance not used everyday
- The Hutch will have all the wine/bar glasses
- The bottom of the Hutch will have platter storage.

You have a lot of doors and pull-outs rather than drawers. Is this because you prefer the look? You prefer the see in/reach in? Ability to change heights? There are reasons for doing it; I'm just wondering why you didn't prefer drawers. Are there drawers above all those cabinets for utensils and gadgets?

Re the glasses and mugs, you have a big, hairy dog. I wouldn't put them without a door even in an upper under those circumstances, not to mention the tail. Hm... maybe I misread and you didn't mean open shelving. I'm not sure about a pullout when it's not full. Maybe with something like cushy cupboards lining the bottoms and sides of the trays to keep the glasses from walking and banging. Perhaps sliding glass doors? They can be a pain to operate, but by being transparent are more convenient than opaque sliders.

There are uppers on the sink side of the BP, right? For dishes?

The thing that seems to be missing from the kitchen proper is any food storage other than for the dog. Do you really want to go to the pantry for every bowl of cereal, slice of bread and can of tomato paste? I'd say that unless you bake daily, a lot of your baking things can go in the pantry, as well as extra mixing bowls, and the daily needs foods can go in the baking dish cupboard. One of the levels might be adequate for your needs, but you need something.

The MW/WD seem a little crowded to the range, but in terms of layout it works otherwise, and might just be something to learn to live with.

Although... I'd be tempted to put a 24" WD at the top next to the range, (WD can be panelled to match), and a drawer(s) under and pullout next to it for daily foods. Then the MW in the island with with some baking dishes in a drawer(s) below. That would be a lot easier to use. Still the problem with the MW door bumping the cook's butt, but I still don't have a better place for that.