I found it humorous that you mentioned using urea as a source of nitrogen.

If organics is weak in any area (for large scale farming) it is a cost effective source of nitrogen that is certified organic. Urea used to be, but no longer is, so farmers find ways to use it while retaining certification.

Kind of funny in a way.

Thanks for sharing, I found your post interesting and informative.

Apparently this guy is lying to his certifying agency about what he is doing, and unfortunately you will find this more and more as shylocks get into the organic growing program because they can make money at it.

I often wonder how "organic" the organic produce really is when paying high dollar for it at the store. They can lie,,and get away with it. That is why I am going to stop buying "crapp" at the grocery store and grow my own. This way I KNOW I am getting the real thing or atleast more so than what we are buying. The wholesale distributor I buy from for my greenhouse business told me they "tried to go organic with there herbs",,but it DIDN"T WORK OUT !!! and they are huge,,and have been in the business for YEARS !! with thousands of acres for growing plants and raising dairy cattle, So if THEY can't grow organically with success, it makes me wonder who really can???? and what the others are really doing to produce a good TRUE ORGANIC product. Apparently they had a difficult time controlling pests and ending up with a quality product at the same time, so they went back to using chemicals. Makes you wonder...doesnt it ???

Thanks, renais, for the report. I was an inspector for California's largest certifier, CCOF, for more than a decade prior to the USDA's Federal Organic Rule. We would have weeded out the Urea users (and we did but sometimes they found certifying companies that would look the other way.) In a way, certified organic is supported by the integrity of both producers and the certifying agency.

Cheating tends to be found among those transitioning into organics or those fly-by-night operators in for the fast return, then move on. OTOH, I know certified growers who farm as they always have in spite of changing organic production standards. But, I always remind myself that we are not yet a Police State.

Urea pellets are synthetic products and thus banned from organic production, however benign the fertilizer is compared to the once acceptable mined Chilean nitrate which contained 40% Sodium. I remind myself and others that systemic insecticides and fungicides and hormonal growth regulators are widely used to produce tomatoes, apples, spinach and a wide variety of conventional product. These materials cannot be washed off.

Keeping animals and birds out of farm fields and orchards is as difficult in conventional as in organic operations. I know because I fight them off in my non-certified organic operation using nets, fencing, floating row covers, grow tunnels and other materials and practices that cut into my bottom line. A visit to the vineyards during fruit ripening is like a visit to a war zone because of sonic devices to drive off starlings and other birds feeding on fruit.

ctufts, sorry you are abandoning organic product for conventional. You cannot, in northern Maine, grow all your food for the year unless you are deep into canning, freezing, and root-cellering.

Your friend the herb grower is full of what makes fields green. What he meant was that he either did not know organic practices appropriate to the operation or found such practices and materials too expensive relative to sales. The two "easiest" organic crops out here at least are lemons and herbs.

I haven't used even an acceptable pesticide in my vegetable fields for more than two years. In my orchard, I use an old and acceptable dormant spray on peaches and nectarines only. Otherwise I use cultural practices.

What you farming friend failed to mention perhaps is the widespread problem of pesticide treadmill: treating crops and fields for one problem tends to kill relatively more beneficial insects and mites, thus requiring additional treatments for outbreaks of other pests and diseases.

Then we are back to a prophylactic crop protection program of spraying on schedules meant to keep ahead of any potential pest problem known to affect that kind of crop. Been there and done that.

Perhaps mixed farms of "thousands of acres" are typical of northern Maine. They are here in California, but the average organic farm in California is less than 150 acres. I've inspected farming operations of 8,000 and 14,000 with small organic parcels of less than 100 acres. On these small parcels the farmers were willing to trial organic techniques and materials on scales that allowed for low economic returns during the learning processes. They were not interested in cheating -- wasn't worth the effort nor would they learn what works and does not work for them on those pieces of ground.

Thanks Marshall for the balanced and imformative review of the situation. Yes, it is not easy for the real organic producer and even for the "natural" one.

ctufts, sorry you are abandoning organic product for conventional. You cannot, in northern Maine, grow all your food for the year unless you are deep into canning, freezing, and root-cellering.

Yes we can. I've been eating fresh greens and baby carrots all winter. We stopped canning anything two years ago because of the nutrient loss due to the heat. We freeze some vegetables (cauliflower, green beans, broccoli) but eat most of our vegetables fresh. Mainers are using season extenders such as high tunnels and greenhouses much more now than just a few years ago. Lisa at Laughing Stock Farm and Eliot of Four Season Farm are excellent examples.

A friend of mine called about certifying her grass fed beef herd. The certifier said they could come to the farm but they didn't have to. I don't certify because someone might come here once a year for a couple of hours and that's it. I could dump anything on my field I wanted to and get away with it. There isn't any soil or residue testing in organic certification. Libby's green beans can be grown in China and shipped here and have the same certification. It's a shame to put hard working honest farmers in the same category as the cheaters and importers. I think those folks deserve better.

If you can buy locally so that you can see how your food is grown and know who's growing it you're far ahead of blind faith. We don't use synthetics or anything no OMRI approved. We do use a lot of compost, seaweed, etc. When our customers are here they're welcome to walk in the field, go into the greenhouses and ask questions. It's important to me that they know what I'm doing to grow their food. They don't all want to know but those who do are a lot of fun to talk with.

Robin, I agree that you Mainiacs ;o) can successfully follow Eliot Coleman's model (written by a Granitehead). While you folks can also grow year the round, you do have to use extraordinary materials and practices, making the resulting fresh food very dear in fact.

I do follow his model as a modified French biointensive system in California where I grow mixed vegetables, fruits, herbs and flowers for my year-round subscribers. Some customers volunteer a few hours a week as well. I host farm tours for school classes and others too. Mine is a model for ex-urban agriculture.

I am active in the local relocalization movement: buy and eat locally, including non-organic if from a trusted source. I do not advocate buying Chinese garlic even though that garlic dominates even California supermarkets. I do not advocate buying Chilean grapes in Spring either.

Your criticism of certified products are of course justified because with any system calling for integrity and honesty, there will be cheating or at least 'errors' of ignorance of the niceties of formal organic standards. I shudder at the available alternatives to certified and more naturally produced food. Better the poisons you think you know?

I don't mean to pick a fight. I've been involved in conventional and organic agriculture and horticulture off and on for 40 years. You might say I know where many of the bodies are buried in agribusiness.

I am more disturbed by how product is handled at the wholesale and retail levels where cheating has been an honored tradition since balances were used to measure quantities.

I am more disturbed by how conventional product is grown, handled and shipped from Mexico than I am by Salinas Valley lettuce growers. So, peace and stick with your standards and values. I value them as much as mine. Diversity and natural rhythms.

Robin, I agree that you Mainiacs ;o) can successfully follow Eliot Coleman's model (written by a Granitehead). While you folks can also grow year the round, you do have to use extraordinary materials and practices, making the resulting fresh food very dear in fact.

Extraordinary didn't occur to me. It's just a greenhouse over soil where plants grow. I use row covers to hold in some warmth over night but no heat other than the sun. If you grow the right varieties of cold hardy plants and don't expect a lot of growth from the third week of December til the middle of February you're all set. I can say that the amount of snow I've pushed off the greenhouses and shoveled away from them has been extraordinary. 110" so far this winter.

I am active in the local relocalization movement: buy and eat locally, including non-organic if from a trusted source. I do not advocate buying Chinese garlic even though that garlic dominates even California supermarkets. I do not advocate buying Chilean grapes in Spring either.

I wish there were a way to stop it but I don't see that happening. Prices are going to be so high soon that people won't be able to afford a lot. Diesel went up to $4 a gallon here on Friday. I hope it becomes less expensive to buy locally this year.

Your criticism of certified products are of course justified because with any system calling for integrity and honesty, there will be cheating or at least 'errors' of ignorance of the niceties of formal organic standards. I shudder at the available alternatives to certified and more naturally produced food. Better the poisons you think you know?

For me, no, but that's because I know where almost everything I eat comes from. I don't know otherwise. There has to be blind trust in most everything. DH is CoB of Soil & Water Conservation for our county and on the state's executive board. Some times you can know so much about those poisons.

The only other certification program I'm aware of is CNG. It would be easy to cheat on that but you do at least have to be concerned about testing now and then. It concerns me when any agency will certify a farm without stepping foot on the property.

I don't mean to pick a fight. I've been involved in conventional and organic agriculture and horticulture off and on for 40 years. You might say I know where many of the bodies are buried in agribusiness.

A fight didn't come to mind. I live in the middle of no where. When I start talking about anything like this with locals their eyes glaze over immediately. They'd rather not know about road debris on their salad, pets in the field or mice and birds pooping in the soil their food grows in. I like having someone to converse with!

I am more disturbed by how conventional product is grown, handled and shipped from Mexico than I am by Salinas Valley lettuce growers. So, peace and stick with your standards and values. I value them as much as mine. Diversity and natural rhythms.

Do you think the US will ever be able to feed itself any where close to adequately? I have wild dreams of doing away with corn chips and HFCS to better use the space it takes to produce corn.

I co-write a newspaper column about local ag. This month's column focuses on why we are small farmers rather than growing hundreds of acres of vegetables (me) or hundreds of grass fed animals (co-writer, she raises pork, chicken, lamb, beef and turkey on grass only, USDA inspected). We get enough response to know they're paying attention to what we're writing. One berry farmer sold out of her 2008 crop in February after a customer learned about her farm and that it's a good idea to make contacts early. I'll keep promoting small and local so that we have fewer things to think about when it comes to safe food.

Robin, thank you for you pleasant and informative reply. Keep plugging away in your ag column. You are right about the value of connecting a producer to a major marketer, assuming you can get good contract terms. Around here we are also promoting local, mostly organic produce with the help of a new commercial venture that buys locally and delivers to subscribers, much like I have been doing from my local production.

Welcome to California, the country's salad bar and source of much of the almond, walnut, table grape, etc. not imported from Mexico and elsewhere during the winter, especially. Before NAFTA, California produced 80% of US winter produce. Now a decade later. we produce less than half. And produce prices are going through the roof as I write this. Our trillion dollar ag is expected to mostly go the way of the Model A Ford unless public policy changes.

Big agri-business here survives on international sales of specialty items and value-added items. Most of the produce (those "minor crops" we grow) is not sold and consumed as raw purchases but rather are first processed in a variety of ways from cut-and-bag to frozen to processed for junk food. Less than 5% of our ag production is sold fresh. So much of fresh produce is now grown south of the border that most of the freezing and canning operations have left California.

So, Robin, when you write:

"Do you think the US will ever be able to feed itself any where close to adequately? I have wild dreams of doing away with corn chips and HFCS to better use the space it takes to produce corn."

...I have to point out the historic overproduction of a few crops and diminishing relative demand for fresh and wholesome food that we produce. Moreover, the lack of parity in prices paid to farmers and animal producers means that the US farmer receives a smaller and smaller share of the money spent on food. How many boxes of lettuce must you sell to purchase a decent tractor and tool bar?

The "organic movement" threatens the status quo of value-added food processing because organics convince people that real fresh food can be wholesome and tasty and health-supporting without a load of unwanted chemistry. This chemistry is both in the conventional products at farm gates and added later in processing to enhance shelf life, appearance, and taste (fat, corn fructose, salt), AND with much ballyahoo additional nutrients and minerals to "improve" their products alread de-natured and de-neutrified. People are malnourished on our abundant food.

I want to make a minor plug for many conventional growers I've known and inspected. Most of the good ones just hate spraying toxics on crops, animals and ground. Most will choose the least toxic to get something under control. Produce standards are so tight, cosmetic standards even more so compared to those applied to organic products. If you need to wholesale your production, you better conform unfortunately.

They cannot ignore bug and diseases because a shipment of "infected" produce or fruit can be rejected by wholesale terminals or official inspectors at any point. The whole harvest can be returned or otherwise disposed of at a loss.

Japan buys a lot of certified organic grapes from California at premium prices. Let there be ONE black widow spider in a shipping container of California grapes, the container is returned immediately. Growers pay a premium to pickers for finding and delivering black widows. Back then $5 per spider was worth the cost of losing sales.

The practice of fumigating fresh produce and fruit is widespread, including imported organic. The Japanese will accept phytosanitary documentation to avoid fumigation or irradiation.

Fumigation is done at port of shipping and sometimes en route. Under NAFTA, there is not automatic fumigation, as I recall. All kinds of bad bugs are getting through to plague our ag people. So far I haven't been aerially sprayed with pesticided baits as have hundreds of square miles elsewhere.

Got to go collect eggs and set the hens in for the night.