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reesnick

Too Much Straw on Grass Seed, and Subsurface Irrigation

reesnick
12 years ago

Problem: minimal grass.

History: last summer tilled in 10 inches composted cow manure, leveled, installed KISSS (subsurface irrigation for lawn). by LATE fall: seeded (home depot: Scotts Turf Builder Contractor's Mix North Grass Seed: Kentucky bluegrass, fine fescue, perennial and annual ryegrass ), placed certified weedless straw approx 6-8 inches thick (way too thick i'm learning: for you other newbies: more/bigger is not better!), watered 3 times daily (15 min each time) or less to keep bottom half of straw moist.

Result: germination in general under most straw, but took longer than desired. Minimal growth over top of straw. First freeze came at this point.

Now: temperatures in 70-80 for past 1-2wks. soil is moist from subsurface irrigation (not drenched, but easy to stick finger into it). minimal good grass. some unwanted, native grass i'm trying to keep mowed down so it doesn't spread (annual wheatgrass, bulbous bluegrass, and downy brome). straw is now compacted from winter snow and time to only 2-4 inches, but is therefore very dense.

Concern: not sure my seeded grass seed is resilient enough to withstand whatever i need to do now to get it to grow. not sure if putting on too much straw destroyed everything wanted. not sure if thinning out straw will destroy what seed is there. i've searched online some, and most sites say to now leave straw alone, but i think my situation of it being way too thick is different. Also, i would love to post a photo, but can't find the "browse" button to add image from my cpu; doing from web is a pain for me right now.

Questions:

1. should i add above ground sprinkling to keep straw moist (as it is now mostly dry above the bottom 0.5cm)?

2. what is the liklihood that the seed is dead?

3. how should i proceed?

a. thatch, reseed, pray?

b. remove as much top straw by hand, keep soil moist only from below or sprinkle from above or both?

c. leave straw as is, keep mowed as low as possible (mower rides on top of straw and mulches very little of it) and expect my desired grass to eventually poke through?

d. other: i'm open to ALL suggestions, but would LOVE to know if anyone out there has experienced this same dilemma.

Comments (8)

  • reesnick
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a pic of the lack of grass.

    Here is a link that might be useful: no grass

  • tiemco
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's a mixed blessing really, as that mix is not ideal, some would say a waste of money. Most of the grass that germinated likely died under all that straw. Grass under straw, mulch, leaves, etc. over the winter will usually die as well. If you carefully remove a few square feet of straw from the center of the yard, you will be able to see what you have, and I suspect it will be not much of anything. So what to do? A few options I guess, but ultimately you will have to reseed if you want a nice lawn. When you do reseed (late summer would be best btw) you will have to remove all that straw with a rake. So here's your questions, with my answers.

    1. should i add above ground sprinkling to keep straw moist (as it is now mostly dry above the bottom 0.5cm)?

    No, because the grass seed has probably all germinated and died, anything that hasn't is still under that straw.

    2. what is the liklihood that the seed is dead? 99.9%

    3. how should i proceed?
    a. thatch, reseed, pray? No

    b. remove as much top straw by hand, keep soil moist only from below or sprinkle from above or both? Getting warmer, but you would most likely be watering dirt.

    c. leave straw as is, keep mowed as low as possible (mower rides on top of straw and mulches very little of it) and expect my desired grass to eventually poke through? Ain't going to happen.

    d. other: i'm open to ALL suggestions, but would LOVE to know if anyone out there has experienced this same dilemma.

    I have never experienced this because I guess I know better (sorry if that sounds douchy, but it is what it is). Again, rake up all that straw and get rid of it when you are ready to seed, it is way to thick for any use except for composting. If you rake it up now and wait till summer to seed, then you are going to get erosion and weeds. Now as most know late summer is best for cool season seeding, but if you are in Colorado, you could probably get away with a spring seeding if you have to, but expect weeds, more so than late summer. If you want to topdress your seed use either a very fine layer of peat moss, or top soil, just enough to cover the seeds. A very light coating of SHREDDED straw is the most I would recommend, as it can help keep everything in place, but isn't necessary. The birds aren't going to eat all your seed, especially if you topdress. Keep the seedbed moist with very light waterings a few times a day. In regards to seed type, that's up to you, but again, that mix you used is a real mutt, and won't give you a great lawn, average at best. Let me know if you want some opinions on grass seed.

  • reesnick
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    teimco,
    i would LOVE opinions on grass seed: parachute, colorado. somewhat arid, usually a little on the warmer side (compared to denver, but not as hot as grand junction). would love a fine bladed grass that is comfortable to bare feet but will hold up to kids running around (no pets). thanks a ton. i'll start to peel off the straw and pile it in the back for compost (how deep must it be to break down fast: any recommendations for good forum or site for composting just straw so i don't mess that up too).

  • tiemco
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First, let me give you a run down on the major cool season grasses, and their pro's and cons.

    Perennial Ryegrass: A fine bladed, dark green bunch type grass. Germinates in 3-7 days, and is ready for it's first mowing in 3-4 weeks. Can tolerate close mowing (used on golf course fairways) but does well at 2-3 inches. PR is often part of mixes due to its quick germination, but in actuality isn't really good in a mixed stand due to it's fast rate of growth, it's better in a monostand. PR doesn't spread (except for a few new spreading cultivars that just came out) so any stand loss will necessitate periodic overseedings. Once established it is very difficult to seed other types of grass other than PR into the stand due to allelopathy. PR requires full sun, and is somewhat of a thirsty grass, requiring more water than the other major cool season grasses. PR has a very short dormancy period in times of drought, and the grass will die very soon. PR also can suffer cold kill, which occurs when winter temps get very low for long periods.

    Tall fescue: TF used to be a light green, coarse pasture grass until turf scientists in the late seventies and eighties started developing darker, finer varieties. Development has continued to this day and the newest varieties are dark green, fairly fine bladed, and much softer. Germination is typically 5-12 days, with the first mow at about a month. Also a bunch type grass, but newer varieties have high tillering and higher rhizome activity. Mature tall fescue will spread, albeit slowly, but for the first few years it's spreading is minimal. Any major stand loss will require overseeding. Tall fescue is best around 2-3.5 inches, depending on your preference. Too high it gets bunchy and thin. TF is very shade tolerant, most cultivars do well in sun and moderate shade. Tall fescue has the ability to develop very deep roots in certain soils, and can withstand periods of drought for a long time once mature. Dormancy is longer than PR, but periods of drought will ultimate lead to stand loss. One of the biggest drawbacks to TF is the disease brown patch, but in Colorado this will probably be minimal due to the lower night temps and drier air. Cold kill is also a possibility, but from what I have read cold kill isn't a huge problem unless temps are very low for long periods. TF mixes pretty well with Kentucky bluegrass, as long as you don't select super dark, slow growing cultivars.

    Kentucky Bluegrass: The Cadillac of turfgrass. Produces a soft lush turf with most cultivars dark green to dark blue green. Spreads via rhizomes, so overseeding is only necessary if very large areas are lost. Germinates in 8-28 days, and is usually slow to establish, first mowing in about 30-45 days depending on the weather, cultivar, soil, etc. The first year it is a bit fragile, but after that it is very durable. There are many different cultivars on the market today with variable characteristics. Usually cut at 2-3 inches, but some varieties can be cut to fairway heights. Mature grass can go dormant in times of drought for long periods, coming out of it when conditions are more favorable. It's spreading ability is one of it's best characteristics as it self repairs areas as big as a dinner plate in one season if properly cared for and feed well. Needs a bit more fertilizer and water than TF, but in reality, to have a great lawn they all require similar inputs. Cold kill isn't an issue, but many cultivars are slow to wake up in spring. It has been the convention to mix different cultivars to increase genetic diversity, and prevent a disease from wiping out an entire lawn. The newer cultivars today are thought to be disease tolerant enough where mixing several cultivars isn't really necessary anymore, which will give a more consistent lawn.

    Fine fescues are another type of turfgrass, but unless you have moderate to heavy shade, they are typically not suited for full lawns. Their needle like blades are soft, but they are not the greatest looking lawns, and I would only use them in the shady lawns I mentioned above.

    For a sunny lawn in Colorado you are going to have to irrigate due to your low humidity, and somewhat dry conditions. If water is too expensive to supply 1 inch a week in times of no rain, then PR, TF, and KBG are going to struggle. Fortunately disease pressure should be lower than areas that are hot and humid in the summer. All turfgrasses have their disease issues, with good cultural practices they should be kept to a minimum.

    To help you decide which cultivar you should use, you can consult the NTEP trials at www.ntep.org. Pay attention to your specific region and characteristics you are interested in. Not all cultivars are tested in the NTEP's since it is a 5 year trial, and new ones that come out mid trial aren't tested. That being said, if a cultivar is being sold, it has been tested by the grower for many years, or else they wouldn't bring it to market. For Colorado, if you choose KBG, I would probably pay attention to spring green up since you have a shorter growing season with lower spring temps. There are a few cultivars that do very well in that regard like Rush, Nugget, 4-Seasons, Jumpstart, and others. Also pay attention to what sod farms in the area are growing as well as local golf courses. Extension offices can be a good resource, but not always, especially when it comes to cultivar selection. Hope this helps.

  • reesnick
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    PLAN ON GOING TO NEARBY FARMERS CO-OP.
    THEY HAVE KBG MIX: odyssey, moonshadow, mercury, everest, cheetah (50LB BAG: 4.28/LB. ESTIMATED 10K SF (1/4 ACRE). THEY SAY 1LB COVERS 1,000 SF.).
    QUESTIONS:
    IS OVERSEEDING A PROBLEM?
    I HAVE ABOUT 1/4 INCH OR LESS OF STRAW REMAINING. DO I NEED TO REMOVE IT ALL DOWN TO RAW DIRT OR WILL THE SEEDS FIND THEIR WAY THROUGH?
    WILL SHREDDED STRAW (MOWING IT DOWN WAS EASIER THAN RAKING DUE TO NATIVE GRASS ROOTING) PLACED ON TOP OF SMALLER WEEDS (2-4 INCHES HIGH) HINDER WEED GROWTH?

    CONCERNS:
    THERE ARE A LOT OF BUZZARDS HERE THAT WILL EAT THE SEED.
    THOUGH IT IS GETTING WARMER, IN OUR SEMI MTN AREA, IT IS STILL A TOUCH ON THE COOL SIDE, SO I PLAN TO SEED THIS WEEK, JUST NEED FEEDBACK ON ABOVE QUESTIONS.
    THANKS!

  • tiemco
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That seed blend should produce a nice turf, but most people seed at a rate of 3-4 lbs per 1000 square feet for new lawns, 1 per 1000 is an overseed rate into existing turf stands.

    "IS OVERSEEDING A PROBLEM?"

    Not sure I really understand this question. What are you overseeding? From your pic it looks like you have no real grass to speak of.

    "I HAVE ABOUT 1/4 INCH OR LESS OF STRAW REMAINING. DO I NEED TO REMOVE IT ALL DOWN TO RAW DIRT OR WILL THE SEEDS FIND THEIR WAY THROUGH? "

    Raw dirt would be better, as seed to soil contact is important for germination.

    "WILL SHREDDED STRAW (MOWING IT DOWN WAS EASIER THAN RAKING DUE TO NATIVE GRASS ROOTING) PLACED ON TOP OF SMALLER WEEDS (2-4 INCHES HIGH) HINDER WEED GROWTH? "

    Probably, but it isn't an ideal solution. Where are you putting this shredded straw? Your yard should be dirt when you seed. If there are weeds in your seedbed then you should spray the area with Round-up.

    KBG seeds are very small, and it is doubtful that birds will eat much, if any, of your seed. If you think it's a problem, then topdress your seeds with a very light layer of compost or good topsoil (weed seed free).

  • reesnick
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OVERSEEDING: sorry, didn't know that meant seeding over existing lawn. what i meant was seeding in excess. example, what is the effect if i plant 5 or 7 lbs per 1,000sf? i'll shoot for 3-4 using a drop spreader. i think i'll be looking for even coverage of the seed on the dirt (i'll remove the straw as suggested), but i'm not entirely sure how else to know if i have the right amount of seed out. i really don't want to screw this up the 2nd time around.
    plan:
    1. remove remaining straw (stacking on top of small weeds at edge of property).
    2. spray with glyphosate 41% (buying tomorrow at farmers coop)
    3. wait....how long must i wait before i seed?
    4. water 3 times daily for 15 minutes per time, keeping soil moist to touch, but not drenched or muddy.
    5. change watering (reduce) to ....??? (recommended schedule?) after i see at least....??? (how much growth or after how much time?)
    6. after lawn is established, i'll stop above ground watering and let the subsurface take over (or can i assume the roots are long enough after the grass reaches X inches tall that i can let it take over earlier? there are moisture sensors in each grass zone if you have any idea of what a proper threshold would be, i can set it accordingly. it measures about 3 inches under the surface).

    thanks so much for teaching me!

  • tiemco
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do not seed over the recommended seeding rate. It can lead to damping off and overcrowding of seedlings. Stick to the seeding rate given on the bag. To ensure even coverage, measure your square footage. Then weigh out the appropriate amount of seeds. I highly recommend you obtain a broadcast spreader, not a drop spreader. With a broadcast spreader set on a very low setting (a little less than half the recommended setting on the bag of seed), lay down seed in one direction (north-south). Then lay seed in the other direction (east-west). Continue to do this until all the seed you weighed out is gone. If you do it right, you should have a nice even coverage of seed. In answer to your other questions.

    2. Yes, use a hose end sprayer or tank sprayer to apply the glyphosate to everything you want to die. You can seed anytime after you apply the glyphosate, but I would wait till it's dry, so at least a few hours.

    4. Yup, three times a day is about right, making sure to keep it all moist. 15 minutes might be too much time for some areas, you should do a test run to determine how much time each zone will need.

    5. Once your yard is covered in a green fuzz, and you are pretty sure most of the seed has germinated you can start to reduce the watering frequency, but you will want to water a bit longer each time. So once you see all the green fuzz, cut back to twice a day for a week, then once a day for a week, then once every other day for a week, etc. Of course this is all veriable if you get rain, and if you have some cloudy days when watering won't be as important.

    6. I am not very familiar with subsurface watering systems, but you don't want to rely on that until you are sure your grasses roots are in the watering zone. If the subsurface system makes the ground above and below it saturated, then you should be ok, but if the water only moves downward this might be an issue.