Living mulch?????

Jeri

It sounds like all these plants will grow together into a living mulch. I don't know what white periwinkle is. I'm hoping it is not like the periwinkle I know, which is too invasive to plant with roses.
What I use often in a living mulch sort of situation is groundcover Veronica. it doesn't hurt the roses and looks good though it only blooms in the spring. I like sedum too, but not everyone does. I think as time goes by you'll see what works well in your rose bed of the things you are planting. It sounds like a fun area to me.

I have a feeling that the roses you've chosen are going to be too large for such a small bed in a warm-climate zone. One of them might fit, with not too much space left for companion plants, unless they're quite small. Is there any way you can enlarge the bed? If you've read much here you'll see that many of us consider grass just so much wasted space and this is a perfect opportunity to get rid of some of it and plant some lovely roses and companion plants instead. That will attract beneficial creatures and create a living environment, while grass just sits there and needs a lot of maintenance and water.

Ingrid

Sounds like a great house, if it's four feet off the ground! I don't have to ask if it's built of Heart Cypress.

If I had such a tiny planting area, but such a tall house, I might opt to let the Austins reach for the sky, and (once they've become monsters) neaten up the lower part of the canes, just like you expose the trunks of Crape Myrtles, by removing the cluttering little odd branchlets and leaves.

I used to love the way that old Tea roses grew in Uptown New Orleans. They were as tall as was I. Very pleasant to pass by them, on my way to class (Tulane).

As for underplanting (I think that's what you mean by 'Living Mulch'), you have many wonderful possibilities. Confederate Jasmine can be encouraged to remain prostrate. Wonderful fragrance. And if there's enough sun, there are prostrate/trailing/semi-dwarf varieties of Crape Myrtles available, now. The 'Myrtlettes' are wonderful little chaps. Quite a few prefer to grow more outward than upward.

Then, there are the bulbs... Gingers love New Orleans. Here in Mississippi, we can mostly only grow the white 'Butterfly Ginger'. You, I suspect, can grow them all. There are short varieties.

I remember there being clumps of Caladiums Uptown, which seemed to come back, year after year. Caladiums disappear in winter. But Hymenocallis and Crinums (depending on the specific cultivar) can be evergreen. Calla Lilies may be evergreen in New Orleans. I never noticed them, though. I do pass by a lovely garden in Jackson, Mississippi, which has some gorgeous Callas. So, I know they can take the Southern heat. Oh! And regular old Gladiolas, like you'd buy in the packets at the grocery store, can be hardy in New Orleans. It might be fun to tuck a few into the soil around the base of the rose (maybe with some Paperwhite Narcissus), just to see what happens.

If you go out to Terrytown, you'll see Monstera Deliciosa (a houseplant in most of America) which become big specimens. I think a clump of Monstera, with roses rising above it, would be quite a nice living flower arrangement.

If you're going for the more orthodox approach, then an underplanting of (evergreen cultivars of) Daylilies, Agapanthus, and Artemesia would work quite well. If you want to plant shrubs at the corners of the bed, maybe try Osmanthus (Sweet Olive). The fragrance is wonderful, and I think the plant NEEDS rigorous clipping, to keep it attractive. Otherwise, you could edge the bed with Dwarf Boxwood.

If you want REALLY EASY (I don't think you do), then the larger varieties of Liriope, like Evergreen Giant, are foolproof, and tall enough to choke out that awful Bermuda Grass.

But New Orleans has such wonderful microclimates (really, it's got the best climate in the whole Deep South), you might as well go crazy and push the envelope. Why not?

Wow, everyone, thanks so much for all the input! Mendocino, do you keep the Veronica trimmed away from the base of the roses, or do you just let it go? Ingrid, I am afraid of the space issue also! I have basically just told myself I will be pruning it to keep it in check. Hopefully that doesn't turn out to be a full time job! I have a pretty tiny yard with not much grass anyway. I guess I probably could extend the boundaries of the bed a little, but not much. Plan9, most of the houses are raised up around here (sure you're familiar with that). We actually bought the house with a monster tea rose bush that we got rid of (is that what 'shovel prune' means?) because it was growing into the sidewalk. Those are very novel ideas, especially the jasmine as a ground cover. I have also seen those 'myrtlettes' and wondered about them. As far as ease vs. difficulty, I'm trying to plant things that are fairly easy so I can really give my attention to the Austins (at least until I've discovered that I can actually garden respectably!). Anyway, maybe I'll try to post a pic of what I've done so I can be thoroughly embarrassed. :)

Thanks for all the info everyone!

An attempt to post pictures:

Don't judge too harshly; I'm new to this! Two roses in the back on either side, pentas in the middle, mazus reptans and carpet thyme ground cover interspersed, million bells and false heather on each far side, parsley and what I call white periwinkle filling in front. Terrible?
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I guess I could extend the bed by wrapping it around the left side of the house. I have to keep a walkway around to the side though, because there's a side door and porch over there.
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An Abe Darby already:
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It looks wonderful, but that bed has room for one moderate sized rose and that's about it. Can you get rid of some lawn? The roses are planted to close to the foundation. They will be leaning outwards.

Hi, Mlle. Melanie.

How wonderful that you've got a fresh garden of your own in which to experiment. I predict great fun in your future! I'd like to join the voices of Ingrid and others that are discussing size and growth habit. The Austins you selected are two of my favs; I've grown them in one location or another for years. Both are very fragrant to my nose and both can become rather large, with Abe being the taller of the two. Abe is quite thorny but Heritage has some lower weapons that sneak up on you while weeding. I agree with Ingrid and Hoovb--remove as much lawn as is feasible. In another post I'll attach some photos of my last garden. I installed a wrought iron fence between the house and a very narrow bed but left just enough lawn for pedestrians and mowers. Our sites share some similarities, so maybe my photos will inspire you to claim every inch of bed space you can. The rose on my wall is Abe Darby (grafted). I grew him as a climber because my space was SO narrow. It was maybe half the depth of yours at its deepest. If I were tackling the size, shape, and location of your bed, I'd probably select Heritage. I'd plant her closer to the center (as Hoovb suggested) of the widest part and install a tripod around her. The supporting structure would allow her to develop into a statuesque beauty (as Plan 9 recommended) but keep her somewhat constrained and manageable. She could arch onto the porch and no harm done. Just fragrant, recurring blossoms to savor. I'd plant Abe around the corner if, as it appears in the photo, you have more wiggle room for walking on that side of the house. I'd think of using a structure with him as well. Trellis or tripod? He can sprawl and grow quite large over time. He will climb in your climate if you train him up the support. Photos coming as soon as I unearth and scan them.

Carol

Carol and Hoov, thanks for the input! As I look at everything I did yesterday, I'm thinking some similar things. I went to the garden center planning on getting the Alnwick rose instead of Abe, but they were out. I asked about my bed size at the garden center before I purchased, and maybe should have stuck to my gut that I didn't have room there for two. I do have room around the corner, but I'm worried about putting something thorny there since it's the only bit of grass I have for my 8 month old baby to grow up playing in! Maybe I can get creative. I do have several other spots that could become small flower beds that are currently boring grass. :)

First photo: Abe Darby on wall when the narrow bed was first created. (Before fence.)

Second photo: Abe Darby after fence installed.

Carol, how lovely! Hm, I guess I have some thinking to do.

Mom to mom FYI: I have Abe right next to my front porch. (I live in a different house.) He peeks over the railing, spills over a few stakes, and climbs some wire. He's planted next to a path between the porch and fence where my 2.5-year-old frequently travels with no injuries to show for her adventures. I just tie up Abe or cut him back as needed. There was a recent forum thread on favorite Austin roses where you can check out some photos. Abe is there.

Carol

I don't trim the Veronica. When I put down compost at the base of the rose i just throw it on top of the Veronica.
I agree that your space is very tiny. It would be great if you could expand it.

I had an arbor planted with conf. jasmine around that corner to the left of the bed in question. Hurricane Isaac decided it needed to go, so that spot is up for grabs. It was there to hide the A/C unit from the street, so I guess a big rose bush can accomplish the same thing, right? I could just extend the brick border of the front bed around the corner to the side of the porch. Can I keep Abe in the front bed and move Heritage to the side spot? Or will Abe quickly outgrow the small front bed and leave room for nothing else? I guess I should have named this thread "bed layout help"! :)

For now, I am enjoying my one gorgeous Abraham Darby bloom. Yay!

Ok, the current solution is, Tamora in the small bed and Heritage moved around the corner. Now, what to do with Abe Darby?? Put him in the backyard against the fence as a climber?? It's a mess back there, and I wasn't ready to start on it, but maybe that's a good start.

Since you have plenty of rose size comments already I thought I would add:

If that was my bed, I would redo the pavers/bricks so they are on their narrower side and laying on each other like what you already have under the wrought iron fence and move the white bird bath to a point in the bed where you can have some of your front row ground covers in front of the base and the rest behind. The birds prefer some plants to perch on right next to the bath and the bright white will draw the eye to the focal point (your bed and rose bush) right now the white calls your eye to see the corner of the house.

But it will be pretty when the plants grow in (always the hard part-the waiting)

Hi, Melanie, I'm so happy you have revised your plan. I really don't think you or your roses would be happy chopping and being chopped. Better to put one rose there that will be able to be what it wants to be. As to the companions, I would not put pentas in a bed with roses again. I planted six small plants at the front of my 7' circular bed that is the home of Le Vesuve. In that amended situation with plenty of water they grew like they were on steroids and were beautiful, but the rose started dying back more and more mostly on one side where the pentas and two purple coneflowers were planted around the edge. At the end of the season I removed the pentas. I needed a shovel, couldn't just pull them. I was amazed by the huge root systems and figured out that the rose didn't like those bullies in his bed. The coneflowers were equally huge and deep. So I removed all the coneflowers I had near roses and put them in pots with saucers in the beds Le Vesuve which was 7-1/2 feet across lost one whole side of himself but is coming back finally.

In a bed the size of yours I might plant 3 or 4 evergreen daylilies and not much else. They don't seem to become thugs and the roses tolerate them. Periwinkle seems to only have a tap root and not much else, but they also don't like water. I let them reseed in the crack between the curb and my concrete edging. They do fine there with no care (they died when I planted them where they got watered) and fall over into the street without bothering any plants.

I don't know about the herbs you mentioned, but I would be very leery of planting anything that might love that bed too much. My neighbor has confederate jasmine growing on the other side of my fence. It's steel-like vines squeeze through the sixteenth of an inch crack between the boards and invade my roses vigorously. I worry when I cut them out that I will damage my rose pruners. They twine around everything. It's a really scary plant. lol

This spring I planted several non-climbing clematis to cover the ground and lower canes. You might try them.

In a couple or years when your roses have gained some size you will look back at the above photo of this bed and - just like the rest of us - shudder in amazement that you ever thought all those plants would fit in that bed. I have a photo just like yours, and my jaw drops every time I happen upon it.

You could plant companions the first year just to fill up the emptiness, but after that use discretion.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

For living mulch why not plant a nasturtium seed? Nasturtiums grow easily and their roots aren't aggressive. They're pretty and cool the soil under them.

Or daylilies AND nasturtiums? The nasty urchins (as my aunt used to call them) will weave around the daylilies and the roses. Lantana is nice, too, and I believe it will grow well in your climate. It grows in quite a range of environments in TX. Herbs: how do thyme, sage, and catmint (Nepeta), Verbena 'Homestead Purple,'and feverfew do down there in LA? Too humid or okay? Viola tricolor would be good, I think. My mom grew it. I like Veronica 'Georgia Blue' here in PDX, but maybe it would also work there as well? Other gardeners in the south/Gulf of Mexico area have thoughts on the "living mulch" plants I've suggested?

Carol

Sherry, thanks for the encouragement! Better to fix now than later! Too bad about the pentas; there aren't many colorful options that like full hot sun other than the handful of plants everyone has (I guess that's why everyone has them!). Maybe I can can move them to the other side of the bed with some other things in between? I like the idea of non-climbing clematis, especially since I didn't realize that existed!

Carol, I think all those herbs you listed do well here, except maybe the viola. Not sure about the Veronica either, only since I haven't seen it around at the nurseries. But I may have missed it.

Rross and Carol, I love the nasturtium idea! The leaves are so pretty; they always remind me of waterlilies. Thanks so much everyone for all the help! I'll have to revisit this thread with new pictures when I'm done. (It might be a while. Stay tuned!)

Good luck...and have fun! This is such an exciting stage, the beginning of the transformation.

Carol

For cooler months, white alyssum is beautiful with the roses and stays low at their feet. Here, the nasties only thrive in fall and spring. They die out in the summer months, and I think that's probably true where you are.

This is my Abe Darby 3rd year in ground. Its a monster.
Im in the Chicago Suburbs. It's planted 4 ft out from the house and is almost 4.5' tall.{{gwi:269308}}

I forgot to mention Salvia farinacea aka common salvia aka Victoria Blue. You can get them at Lowe's here all the time for 99 cents (4" pot). It's a lovely silvery blue and blooms from spring to frost and then comes back next spring, just deadhead it back low to a leafnode and it regrows about 2' tall. It doesn't spread underground and isn't a bully. I have it everywhere. Also, Angelonia comes in pink, white, purple, is about the same size as the Victoria Blue, but I think frost/freezes kill it.

I had an alyssum plant that not only lived through the summer (scraggly looking and not blooming) and then bloomed and spread in winter for two years. In winter you can put in annuals like viola and pansies that will die back in the heat and get pulled out.

I'm not positive but I think that gorgeous Chicago Abe would be 6' tall down here - or more. :))

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry, I think you're right about the 6' Abe, from what the other southerners say! I love the salvia and angelonia both, so those are definites if I'm going to be switching things out. Anyone have any negatives on the false heather I put in? It's looking pretty fabulous in that hot sun out there.

Re false heather - we call it Mexican heather here and I see it all over so I know it does well and attracts lots of bees. I don't know anything about the root system, i.e., if it's a thug in the garden. I think I'd put them tight against the edge though just in case and keep an eye on how the rose does as they all get bigger. I think they're pretty tough plants which means they'll survive fine, but you don't want it to be at the expense of the rose.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Good luck!

I am also in the N. O. area and this will be my first year with Austins, too. I bought an Abe Darby, Charlotte, and Jude the Obscure. I have them all in pots because I started a "lasagna" bed a couple months ago and it's not ready to plant yet. I will wait until the summer heat is through and the organic material has composted to plant mine out. It is already so terribly hot and humid during the day I can't stand to do anything outside until after 5PM. I don't think brand new roses appreciate being planted directly into the blazing heat. I also have a "Peggy Martin" climber, a Belinda's Dream, and a Cecile Brunner, and I would love to get a an old fashioned Tropicana, or Peace rose because I love the colors. When I bought my potted roses they were most all already covered in blackspot, but a couple consecutive weeks of spraying with Bayer remedied that. I know I will have to spray in this brutally hot and humid climate, but really it only takes a total of 20 minutes twice a month. I'm willing to do it because for no other plant do you get so much excitement out of anticipating the blooms. I have gardened for years but have always ignored the roses because so many people down here have a big prejudice against them. Really, if you aren't going to spray, the hybrid teas that are regularly available will generally look like crap, and that used to be the image "rose" brought to my mind.

Nepeta, nepeta, nepeta! All different cultivars with different heights..varying in shades of purple. I also have a pink one "kit kat" and I know there is white also.
That salvia Victoria is great with apricots/yellows/whites/true crimsons. Also salvia "Black and Blue".
Thyme is a great spreader and if you get lemon thyme you can inhale that wonderful scent while pruning and tending to your roses.
That fence of yours is definitely in need of ROSE decoration...Someone likely already mentioned that and I missed it.
I can just picture roses arching and draping over that fence.
I agree with Kippy about the direction of the pavers...neat look, I'm going to try that.
And what about some clematis or pillar roses going up your columns?
I love NOLA and the architecture and the abundance of everything there.
Be sure to take pictures of the evolution.
Susan

jockewing, where oh where did you find Jude?! You must have ordered it, right? I guess I started too late because there wasn't much selection beyond knockout and hybrid teas. I almost got Belinda's Dream, but I have so little space and I really wanted Austins. Nice to see there's another rose adventurer in the neighborhood! You are blessed with the patience that I am working to develop. Hopefully gardening helps with that! Susan, I do love catmint and salvia for sure. Actually, I had to force myself to buy other colors than purpley-blue since everything I like is in that direction. I guess a monochromatic blue/purple garden could be interesting. ;) I used to have hyacinth bean vine all over the fence and it was outstanding! We ended up pulling out all the vines on the property because they were taking over, but now that I have more time (not working) I might reintroduce a few. I have to be careful, though, since big vines on the left side will block the view of the bed. I will definitely update you guys when I get everything redone. Thanks again everyone!

Mlle, comment ca va? There is the Old Garden Rose Society in NOLA but unfortunately it meets in Metairie, which may not be convenient for you. Pretty house. So nice to see people with charming old houses growing old roses. Best, River

Here is a link that might be useful: New Orleans Old Garden Rose Society

Mlle, I love hyacinth vine too! I was just wondering why folks don't use it more. Mine is perennial here (or it drops seeds so close to its location I can't tell the difference).
I am big on the purpley/blue companions. Primarily because those are the only color roses I don't have.
I also like that sulphurous yellow and some white.
Wine is a pretty color to...what Beales would call "the color of a good claret".

River, ca va bien, et vous? Merci for your compliment of my little antique house! Its poor garden has been utterly neglected since my epic hydrangea in full sun failure of a few years ago. (Note to self: you cannot bend mother nature to your will!) I did find that old rose society's website; tantalizing! Might have to drop by one day soon; think they like babies there?? ;)

Roserich, it's as if no one has ever seen hyacinth vine before around here! Every single pedestrian that caught me outside my front door had to ask me what it was. It's so easy and gorgeous that it should really be a no brainer. We would remove it down to the ground every winter and it would come back full force every spring. I'm talking myself back into it, I think. My husband will be so excited!

What I'm discovering about my gardening taste is that the things I love most are not great for my extreme heat and almost constant full sun in most of my yard. Hydrangea, sweet pea, peony, lavender...even the blue phlox I lusted after as a ground cover. I'm having fun trying to get creative because as pretty as everyone's agapanthus, knockout rose, box hedge, sunpatien gardens are, I really wanted something a little different. I did however recently discover that water lilies are fairly easy to have and don't need big containers. That might be fun to try...