Tilling = plowing as far as that goes, so whatever you see about 'tilling' here applies to the garden.

Whether it offers benefits depends on your soil type, organic matter, overall tilth and what you're trying to accomplish.

It sounds like you've been adding manure to your garden for years, and if your system is working well, you may not want to change it. :-]

On the other hand, it's a good question to ask. If you could just spread the manure and put mulch over it to achieve the same thing w/o tilling, why do the extra work?

Tell us more about your garden (size especially), soil, how your garden grows, and whether you've done any soil tests.

It's hard to argue against "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but there really shouldn't be any need for continual plowing/tilling if OM is still being added. Unless you are planting/harvesting with machinery, there can't be much compaction, and at this point you probably have the "best dirt" around for miles (assuming from your tone that you've plowed several times at least previously!) I think it would be good at this point to stop plowing and let the natural layers of soil establish - making it even better, adding your usual OM.

Thanks folks! Here's additional info on my 30+ year old, 30'x40' garden. I live in the hills above the Kansas River where the soil is mostly rocks & clay, so that prompted me to haul rich top soil from the river bottom, combined with some coarse sand to amend the existing clay soil. I have chickens, so the composting has been ongoing.... At this point I'm basically working with a large raised bed LOL Try to maintain a 6.5-7 Ph with regular testing. Well drained soil using drip irrigation. Have had good production even in the heat of the past two seasons.

From what I'm reading here.......
Guess I'll just ride out this crazy weather thing, continue to eat fresh vegetables in December, & not fret over the plowing aspect

30+ year garden, with ongoing composting. Your soil must be quite good by now.

Many people, including me, would like to see a comparison between no-till and plowing on such good soil.

Could you plow 1/2 of your garden this year and do no-till on the other half. Then post pictures next summer and show us any difference between the two?

Would make a interesting comparison study...... I'll be sure to post pics, if I try it!

I'm trying to imagine what sort of plough you would use on such a small area. How do you do it? Doesn't the tractor compact the soil? An area just 30' x 40' could be dug by hand as a compromise between no till and ploughing. That way you can just dig the bits that are currently free and do the bits under tunnels in the spring.

My single bottom plow pulled by my B3200 Kubota works well with little compaction..... I'm 60 years old & disabled (& even if I wasn't), I don't think I'd attempt to turn over 1200 sq ft of garden by hand...... ;)

Here in southern Minn. my father plowed our in town garden with a Ford 9n when they first moved into the house.
There were no roses to avoid then yet.

Even into the seventies, many around here, who owned two lots, would get a gent who lived on the edge of town to come in with his horses to plow the gardens.

The peonies were already there but they are as tough as nails.

This post was edited by RpR_ on Sat, Dec 1, 12 at 14:36

I've never seen a team of horses or mules pull a plow. It would be fun to watch! My mom used to tell the stories about my Irish grandfather using a team of horses to plow rows of potatoes as my grandmother & the kids followed behind to pick up the potatoes. Once in awhile he would turn over a nest of rattlesnakes!!! Yikes!!

the concept of relying upon gw to research various tillage methods is one that brings several words to mind...assinine being one of them.

one benefit of deep tillage after growing season...disease control (primarily), some insect control.

i've run across reports that vary far too much to be able to point to something and say this works better than anything else.

i've seen reports that look promising when converting from conventional tillage to no till, but the same trials also report this is a temporary situation, and while the numbers were promising, methodologies were scant and controls for other factors were absent. meaning, perhaps the gain was from a crop rotation schedule.

but in the end, what we do works. whatever we do. in whatever soil we have. with whatever weather. think maybe it's not so much about us?

I have several planting beds, although I don't think they total 1,200 square feet, ranging in size from 4 x 4 to 4 x 40 that I have not tilled, plowed, in years because I find not till works quite well for me.
I found, many years ago, that half the space in a large, say 1,200 sq. Ft. garden, was not used for growing because of the need to walk between the rows and I decide that putting my compost where I trod was a waste of good compost, hence the smaller planting beds that I can work on and harvest from without walking on, and compacting, the soil.

"the concept of relying upon gw to research various tillage methods is one that brings several words to mind...assinine being one of them."

Assinine:
foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid

Hmmm...... Guess I never considered myself to be "assinine" when soliciting gardening/soil advice from like minded GW members..... Learn something new every day!

Here in Calif, I think it's common to mulch/top dress beds in the fall that won't be used during the winter. Then the mulch is turned under, along with winter weeds or volunteers, in the spring before planting. The mulch gives some protection from erosion and from that crusting that happens to clay soil when it gets beat by rain.

Here's a CSA farm in N. Calif that is entirely horse-powered (no tractors): http://www.livepower.org/

Can you grow favas during the winter in KS?

"the concept of relying upon gw to research various tillage methods is one that brings several words to mind...assinine being one of them."

Thanks for popping 'round to sling some insults, that's always helpful. Is that why you clicked on this discussion? I love the irony of spelling asinine incorrectly as well. Good stuff.

rickd, Thanks for the link! Cool stuff! Probably can't over winter Favas here due to our (sometimes) harsh winters.... If we have a repeat of last winter, it just might be possible under heavy cover...... We received 3" of snow last winter compared to 46" in each of the two previous years.....

This post was edited by Handsome54 on Sun, Dec 2, 12 at 20:55

Handsome, did you miss purples post? Just curious why folk make rude statements like you did and how that adds constructive discussion. Like I said, just curious.

Handsome was not the originator of that quote. You might want to take advantage of the new 'edit' feature.

Lloyd

OP here......

Thanks Lloyd for coming to my rescue! I was attempting to quote strobiculate (see post #11)..... My interest is making a contribution to GW & fail to understand why some azzhat (ie strobiculate ) feels it necessary to attack folks.....

This post was edited by Handsome54 on Mon, Dec 3, 12 at 11:09

Oh, the humanity! :-D

Here is a link that might be useful: Who's on First?

lay it on.

i made a deliberate word choice, knowing full well the consequenses. also feeling the word was not out of place.

as far as spelling, there's gremlins in my keyboard. that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

and please read and understand what was said. if the only book you choose to use is the bible, i'd still call reliance on a single source many things, assinine being one of them. and really, if ya gotta explain...thank you.

this forum is not the place for a full discussion of tillage methodologies and alternatives.

but honestly...prove me wrong.

Like any forum there is good info and bad info. What one chooses to do with it is their business. If one doesn't like some of the material presented, they may offer alternative view points or even seek out a different venue if they feel strongly about it.

Personally, I like this forum and several people often back up their posts with links to credible sources. (some don't but you learn who those are pretty quick)

Lloyd

P.S. I've often been silly so asinine would be a valid descriptor of some of my posts for sure. :-)

Strob., I don't see where the OP said he/she had chosen this GW forum as his/her only source of info on this subject. And OP isn't the first person you've attacked in this vein, congealing into a theme. But if that were the case, why do you care? Why use an insult to express your concerns? Being so new here, I don't think you're in a position to gauge or judge the qualifications and/or experience of everyone offering responses. If you see info you disagree with, you're welcome to say so, like everyone else, and include the info or experience you have that's the basis of your disagreement. There is nothing to be gained by personal attacks, just dispassionate facts and testimonials. I know you are capable. I've seen other posts by you that were informative, well written, experience-based, and not at all similar in tone to the above. As you well know, if everyone gardened the exact same way, these forums and millions of books and websites wouldn't exist. There would be nothing to discuss. I hope to see more of your positive inputs.

"...knowing full well the consequenses." You just wanted to argue or be chided? (Consequences, get that gremlin!)

"this forum is not the place for a full discussion of tillage methodologies and alternatives... but honestly...prove me wrong." It's your prerogative to have this opinion, and this isn't your first expression of it. But I doubt anyone will feel the need to prove anything to you. Maybe you have a wrong idea about GW forums. What I perceive as your general disdain for GW makes me wonder why you're spending time here.

I find tilling up to 1400 square feet of beds to be helpful, even fun. I do not have many of the problems that many say cause them to move to no till.
A my perennial vegetables bed get over run with perennial grasses in 24 to 36 months. So i find tilling helps to turn OM, as well as keep grasses out of the garden.
Kill over wintering bad bugs too.

You heathen devils it is spelled plough.

The supposed problems of tillage is highly overrated in the world of gardening. Farmers go through their fields multiple times every crop with plows, harrows, etc. If you're turning over your soil 6-8 times each year, you could be causing problems. If you're turning over your soil with a pitchfork 1-2 times per year, there is no problem. How many backyard gardeners get 'plow pan?' Or even know what it is?

Here in the Boston area, our topsoil is inches deep - we need to extend the root zone down several inches to create a thick enough topsoil layer, and then we need to supplement that layer with organic matter for years before it's really healthy. If you went no-till around here without the prep-work, you couldn't grow carrots, and your tomato roots would all be in the first 3-4 inches, where they can easily dry out.

Ha! I just figured this out today -- If you want genial, polite advice, post a question on the Vegetable Gardening forum. If you want to start an argument, post that same question of the Soil and Compost forum :)

Now, don't MAKE me turn this thread around.

Seriously, though, Handsome I think you're on the right track. I was just reading The Soul of Soil (Grace Gershuny and Joe Smillie)-- their recommendation is to skip the fall tilling if you can (they say less tilling is better than more, overall), and just be sure to leave mulch or weeds or stubble (or crops that you're eating!) on the soil to prevent erosion during the winter.

The no till method of raising crops is being used seccusfully in row crop systems through out the world. The main use of this method is for soil and nutrient conservation. When first implemented often time very poor results are obtained. In may take several years for the no till system to work properly. It can even break up hard pan and 'plow pan.
A home garden is something entirely different. The economics of adding soil amendments, organic or not is much more feasible. The fact that one can double dig and with no more than foot trafic one can obtain a much more sustainable soil texture. Collectively home gardening may still have the same problems with errosion but for the individual it is simply a matter of adding more compost.

"You heathen devils it is spelled plough." Hah, spellcheck doesn't agree. Your Brit influence is showing. Mine is long gone by now.

This post was edited by wayne_5 on Wed, Dec 5, 12 at 11:21

"Now, don't MAKE me turn this thread around." Ha!

I've never understood how any word is spelled wrong if "that's how the English spell it." It's the English language! I can remember my English teacher from 5th grade having a 'tude about the fact that we speak American English and not proper English, still kind of creepy how dour she was about it, and this vibe like we should feel guilty about it.

Yuuup elisa! I think your soil vs vegetable forum theory might just hold water....... Annuals can be a rough crowd also! ;D

"If you want to start an argument, post that same question of the Soil and Compost forum :)

Bring it on!

wayne 5, in the 60's a Englishmen living in New York City was ask "How you like the new English the kids are using these days?"
He replied "Americans have not spoken English in over 100 years."
I grow collard for four years, this time I have mulched my patch heavy. I will still have to till around the edges to keep the perennial grasses out of the bed, so I will use gas, oil & till up the soil/ground around the bed, so guess it is not really no till.

Every late fall the S&C posters get rowdy. It must be withdrawal from summer. So don't pick a fight with me!!! Btw I have trouble with English no matter the county.:)

Curt

jolj, I don't think that you need to submit to the "Extreme No Till" religion.

When I see words like plough, colour, programme, shilling, I know I am in British territory.

Shilling???? Not since 1971 ;-)

Hi Flora. I read a lot of older English farm and garden books online. Old terms like 'stooking corn', 'five quarters to the acre', 'horse hoeing', 'fibre', Cheviots, and many more are kind of endearingly quaint.

Talk show host, the late Johnny Carson, told the story about being a house guest of a British couple & when retiring for the night the husband announced to Johnny, "I'll knock you up in the morning!" Johnny's reply, "like hell you will!" ;D

Cheviots are certainly endearing, I agree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheviots

Almost all commercial operations till continuosly it aerates the soil and could you imagine the weed problems and hard compaction? youd never get water down to the root zone if they didnt till. check out youtube

The home farm is no-till and has very few weeds...compaction? I have never run a compaction tool to compare with neighboring farms. Most corn and soybean fields get a herbicide spray in June. This farm has been skipped spraying or at least could be skipped some years then...except for the perimeter rows or perhaps some pond areas.