I have no idea but do have the book and will read about it. I was planning on trying to air layer a branch of the vulcanicola I just got at a later date. I guess we'll see.
Karyn

John have you tried and did not get any roots?
Karyn I wish you success with your air layering. Hope it will work!
Lucy

John, when we had what they stated was a vulc. we did have trouble trying to root it but again we lost it during the winter months due to power failure. This was many moons ago and have yet to find a good source that has healthy plants. I'm pulling for Karyn and will wait to see what her's does. We treat all our Sang with the mineral treatment monthly and can't believe the difference in them all. Even Kelly's plant looks 50% better but I think I may have her in to much sun yet. Best of luck to you both.

KHT I saw a vulcanicola on ebay yesterday starting bid $45. The plant is pictured as well as a light pink bloom from the mother plant.
Shawn

Karma what is the mineral treatment?
Karyn

pagrdnr, thanks but I have to work on Kelly's this next couple years to get it to bloom.
Karyn, you've got mail!

Brugs with viruses will root.

As I stated in the previous vulcanicola post......
Vulcanicola roots best with woody cuttings in well drained soil.
No gel, powder, aeroponics, water rooting.
Just well aerated soil. Water regularly. Do not disturb. You should see new growth in about a month. Then start fertilizing for that nice dark green color.

This is more of a hypothetical question/topic for me. I won't get my vulc seedling until tomorrow. ( And believe me, I'm watching the mailbox like a hawk! LOL!) I already have the Preissels' book, too, & plan to propagate it in the future. The main gist of my question is because I've heard of a couple of nurseries & botanical gardens who had there Spaerocarpiums, especially the sangs, decimated by acquiring infected vulc hybrid plants or cuttings. So, I was mainly curious about peoples' direct experiences with weither or not this fact holds true with plants with vulc genes? And in theory this fact also means that if one gets fresh, rooted sang cuttings they are clean, right?
Hey Karma, what kind of mineral treatment do you use?

Am I missing something here? Why would you want to root a virus infected plant?

I would think it would depend on what kind of virus the plant had and how badly the plant's immune system was compromised as to whether it would root or not. It sounds like maybe they were making a general statement in the book but who knows lol. That is an old book and I think a great one but science and knowledge in general is always moving forward and many facts in books are technically out of date by the time they are printed nowadays lol.
Lenette

Oxmyx I don't think he wants virused cuttings, but he was asking if he could use this "rule" to help determine if his newly rooted cuttings were virus-free.
John I would strongly recommend a long quarantine period if you even remotely suspect a virus.
- Tom

Borax is the treatment, just like the double or triples and I add golf course lime for greening.

I will chime in on this now, yes a virused plant can root and for those that hybridize and can quarantine them it's used for the pollen. But again it's hard to find one that is true! Secondly, some of us have been playing with tip cuttings and there is some that feel that since the tip is so new and virus free that is a route to go when it's a plant that needs to be saved. Again one needs to know what one is doing and I really hate to express some of this as some folks take this in the wrong direction. Yes,
if quarantined one can grow a virus plant but again one needs to be educated and know the risks, a long quarantine period has nothing to do with this, right Tom? Quarantine period or burn, no putting in the compost pile! The goal is healthy plants!

Wow, this has been a great topic apparently!!! Thanks everyone for your input thus far! Ok, probably the most specific goal I would hope to achieve is safely acquiring vulcs ( or for that matter, any of the highland Brugs) that I don't already have, for instance Strybing 621 or European hybrids. To lay it right out on the line, a nursery that I have dealings with in Southern CA had to wipe all their sang stock several years ago due to receiving an infected S. 621 cutting(s). So I'm trying to educate myself about the "facts". Did the cuttings carry the virus from the mother? Were they infected after propagation?
I realize that many, many Brugs can be propagated will infected; I even have heard that some can be carriers without displaying symptoms. Karma, more than anyone you have taught me alot about the dangers & about quarantining. Tom, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm far more interested in ways to insure clean cuttings. The only reason that I would intentional acquire infected plants is possibly an exceptionally rare plant for hybridization purposes or if I were working on a cure.
Thanks once again for the prop. info, Matt. Karma, is infected pollen then safe to use or do you risk infecting the mother plant?

I did a search on pollen infection. Of course as usual there hasn't been as much research on brugmansia as in other kinds of plants. In one article alfalfa pollen could become infected and then infect the seed of other plants and also spread diseases to other plants. Another article talked about Mosaic virus in roses and there had been a study in 1984 that suggested that the virus could be spread from pollen to seed. I think they are planning to redo that study. Another article said that infected pollen from avocados could infect avocado seed and if that seed were planted the seedling would have a virus as well.

This was a good topic!

Some plants can carry virus without showing it. A good example is Mosaic Virus: Sometimes if a virused plant is not in stress, getting good sun, water, fertilization etc. (hense their immune system is healthy) they can look completely normal. Once they are stressed you will see them start to exhibit symptoms of disease.
I have also noted and gathered from other people that sometimes stem blight will occur after the plant has recently flowered I think this is probably because flowering takes alot out of a plant and especially one that may not have been healthy in the first place. It also has been noted that stem blight occurs during rainy periods which may indicate that the plant has started to grow alot (which could cause stress in a sick plant)and humid conditions exist which are optimal for fungus.

I hope more research will be done on plant immunity. It seems like a good idea to 'immunize' plants to these diseases.

Yes I agree Karma. I do not recommend quarantine-and-grow-out for a definately virused plant, only destruction (no composting like you said).
I would recommend quarantine for any new plant that you receive but may not be 110% sure of it's status or have sneaking suspicions about. For instance many here accept cuttings from several people who in turn accept cuttings from several others, etc., etc. Accepting new plants is kind of like sleeping around: Quarantine is your condom, but abstinence is better. ;^)
- Tom

grrrnthumb, I'm going to disagree with you and chalk it up to your newbieism when it comes to viruses and the need for rare pollen. Lots to learn?? Remember all carry a gene for the virus? All plants should be quarantined no matter where they come from?? Why?? Because you don't know where that person you traded with got theirs, you don't know the care it was given, gene for a virus, damage from shipping and we know for a fact that there is a virus on US soil! Besides folks don't openly state the fact that they have had virus plants or quarantine their stock for a period of over a year or have them inspected prior to opening up for trades.

Thanks for the no composting as I believe someone stated it's okay to compost? If you compost, you risk the chance of spreading said virus by using the compost unless you nuke/bake it to the highest degree first.

Just my two cents on a Friday! Have a great weekend. . . I think the next discussion should be about seeds?

Okey, since we are talking about viruses, my question is:

Does a virus pass thru the seed? Karma says the virused plant may be used for pollen- would not the pollen carry the virus? Karma??? And hence, the seeds, also?

I had an old-timer brug grower tell me that Monika (sp) from Germany said that most doubles (& triples)carry a virus, it just does not get out of hand and so people live with it. I don't know if she actually said this, as I have not read her statement myself and I may not have the quote exactly word-for-word, but generally, that is Monika's premise! Guess from the above statements, this is true.
Yikes, that's all I can say!! My doubles all come with a little usually-hidden extra that I did not bargain for!!

Brenda

Can Vulc or Brug be propagated by layering.. I have one that looks like Twisted Sister.. but one of the braches is dipped down to the ground it is semi hard wood ..I could repot it to allow the brach to be in the soil.. or will it just rot?

I've air layered brugs and they root easily and quicker then most other plants. I've never attempted ground layering but assume it would work well as long as the branch isn't detached from the plant. I'm going to try air layering on the vulc next season as long as it's still growing well.
Karyn

Karma thanks for calling me a newbie, lol. I'm not sure there's anything to disagree on there though, we're both advocating quarantine. :^)
I know there has been a feeling in the past that pollen was safe, but then I have also seen studies from other plants like those mentioned by Sultry Jasmine Nights that seems to say it is not safe. I had some fresh Super Spot pollen from Germany that I decided not to use for that reason. I don't know that it would transfer in brugs, I just don't trust it.

Brenda the same holds true for seeds. It has not been shown to happen in brugs, but has happened in studies with seeds of some other plants.

Chena yes layering like that in a pot or in the ground is good way to get brug cuttings. :^)
- Tom

grrrnthumb, yes we both are advocating the 'need' to quarantine but to cull/distroy a brug that is needed for hybridizing due to it's got a virus is what I disagree upon. One can safely keep this in quarantine in it's own growing area away from their regular quarantine area that I do hope is sectioned off and not all put together? If this is not done than that is another disaster awaiting to happen?
So far in my talks with some of my Hort. friends there has been a real discussion on the pollen and tip cuttings, beings that these are the furtherest away and the main stream of the virus, some feel that these are relatively safe if handled correctly. So far Brugmansia have not shown the signs like other plants but again they carry the gene that can pop at anytime. So again one needs to be on guard and educated. A higher % of my MG friends feel I'm nuts for growing such dangerous plants, but again they are amazed at what we do here.
Yep, we are all newbies, only the experts stand out? ; )

Thanks I guess I will give it a go! It's a Vulc..
Kylie

I hope I find an excuse to trade plants with Tom sometime....I am sooooo gonna put condoms in the box!;^P

LOL.

I love you sjn.

SJN I think I want a blood test before I trade with you, lol.

Here is a one link (pdf-type file) that lists many ways that a virus can be transmitted other than just standard sap transmission:
Virus Transmission.
It may include not only pollen & seeds, but many insects like aphids, leafhoppers, thrips, mealy bugs, beetles, etc.
Here is one quote:
"When a virus is transmitted by pollen, it may infect the seed and the seedling that will grow from that seed, or it may infect the plant through the fertilized flower. The plant-to-plant transmission of virus by pollen is known to occur in fruit trees such as sour cherry. ILARviruses are commonly transmitted by pollen."
I know it hasn't been proven in brugs, but they are very similar to tomatos. Here is a google link with thousands of links on tomato, pollen, and virus:
pollen virus tomato Google search.
I personally don't think it's safe.
I also think tip cuttings are really risky. The built-in vigor of young plants can keep them from showing signs of a virus until they're much larger, so it can lull you into relaxing your gaurd on quarantine. (what kind of a quarantine distance range do sucking insects have?) It's generally held that you really need in-vitro meristem cultures to use tips to get past a virus, and even then it's hit-and-miss, but those guys have the means to verify if it has worked. There are several examples at that second Google link. :^)
- Tom

grrrnthumb, again it's not been proven that these are in the same boat. Let's just say it's like buying a house near a pipeline, you live with the dangers and need to be educated as to the possibilites of the risks of explosions.
One way of keeping the critters at bay is to do a regular spraying for critters you know will spread the virus. Again it's comes down to the proper care and education?
Plus remembering that these carry the gene for a virus so how can they get around this? Again knowledge is the key to growing them safely? Being related doesn't always carry forward a problem?? another reason for not growing these family members in close range??

SJN, he needs a Peace sign on that condom, could ya do that in blood? ; )

*spectates*

*popcorn*

karma, what do you mean by 'the gene for a virus'?

Since Brugmansia are not a massive commercial crop with billions of dollars in profits behind it, unfortunately there is no money for testing if viruses can transmit through pollen. The closest thing we can do is find all the close relatives within Solanacea that actually have had the research done. I could only think of three; anybody else think of any more?
Tomato: One study. A quote from that study: "Pollen-washing experiments indicated that TSV was carried both internally and externally in pollen of tomato and several weed hosts." More studies.
Potato: One study. More studies.
Tobacco (Nicotiana): One study. Another study. More studies.
Pollen virus transfer in general: One study. A quote from that study: "There are no invertebrates, bacteria, phytoplasmas or spiroplasmas that are pollen-transmitted. Only a limited number of fungal pathogens are associated with the pollen of a restricted number of hosts. In contrast, 39 viruses are pollen-transmitted and a further six are tentatively considered to be pollen-transmitted. The majority of these viruses belong to the Alphacryptovirus, Ilarvirus, Nepovirus or Potyvirus genera." More studies.
So, many plants can transfer viruses through pollen, including the commercially-studied siblings of Brugmansia. Sure it is not proven to happen in Brugmansia (because it hasn't been studied), but is it wise to risk it? There is no more education that will help us use infected pollen safely. It's just a plain roll of the dice. Do you feel lucky? ;^)
That's good advice Karma on keeping control of the pests to reduce any possible transfer, but until they invent the pest-free garden, I wouldn't want a definately-virused plant anywhere on the property. Infection only takes one single bug to travel across the quarantine distance.
- Tom

Again grrrnthumb, you throw out studies on relatives and not Brugmansia. Two of the three can be eaten but you insists to toss out the baby with the bath water. Again if one knows what one is doing and there is a need due to it being so rare? With folks like you I'm sure we will never find a cure for anything? I laugh when folks throw out studies on other species than what we do as this doesn't provide the correct information? Let's look at it this way, my cousin has cancer but I do not, why?

Actually Karma most of the plant on tomatoes and potatoes are poisonous. They are very close relatives of brugmansia, even close enough to share some of the exact same viruses.
Lets be clear here, those are not irrelevant studies. Sure if it was one case in one distant relative, then that wouldn't mean much, but how about every studied, close relative? Do you know of any Solanacea at all that has been shown to not transmit virus through pollen?
Surely Brugmansia itself has never been shown to be safe when using infected pollen. Can you tell me why you think it is safe when it's relatives are proven be unsafe, and when there are no true facts that show it to be safe?
There really is no "if one knows what one is doing" on this. Either the infected pollen will transfer or it won't, there are no special techniques by normal hybridizers that can change it from happening. :^)
- Tom

grrrnthumb, it's not safe to lump all species together until they have been truly tested. One test doesn't make it reality. Explain what is 'normal hybridizers?' Are bees 'normal hybridizers?' Do these all not carry a virus gene? So with that stated like several of my MG friends have stated aren't you playing with danger already?

Hey Karma, where can one find info on the "virus gene"? Is this basically all on ABADS & BGI? I'd really like to educate myself more on the pathology & genetics.

This is not a flame. It is simply truth.

All you need to do is look at Grnnnnnthumbs links to find out more about these viruses. As stated potatos, tomatos, datura, iochroma, solanum. You name it they carry it.

All Brugmansia's can get viruses via pollen, insects, other Solanaceae, etc.
In fact I think most of us have viruses in our collection. Even though some of us refuse to admit it. I know I do and that is why all of my seedlings are grown in a solanaceae free area two miles away from my collection. Even then this does not insure a virus free area as orchids are known to have these viruses as well as other species.

I also think there is a fair amount of misinformation on Karma's page about Brugmansia and Datura. Please stop spreading misinformation Karma. Such as your Variegated Brug can handle more sun than any other variegated Brug. Or naming a NOID. Or calling something that is most likely self pollinated a Datmansia.

Please join BGI or ABADS and ask people who have done their research or do your own and come to your own conclusion. But do not spread misinformation. This way we can all grow happier healthier Brugs!

Thank you!

Hey, take it easy Matt, lol! :o) Sometimes on the net our typing can come through a little more agressive than we were thinking (I know mine has).
Another possible way of doing it might be to pick just one of those subjects at a time & discuss it in a friendly way so that someone doesn't get the feeling they are being personally attacked.
Remember that you'll get more flies with honey. ;)
- Tom

iiiitara, ya know those personal attacks do not become you, yes that was a personal attack and you know it! I just love it and it just proves what some members of ABADS and BGI will do to discredit folks because they don't do or should I say bow to what they say or do? Again these plant all carry a virus gene and it's the proper care and insect control that keeps this at bay. So with that stated then all the pollen is virused if you believe the two above?

It was not a personal attack. It is the truth.

I do not work for or represent either organization. I wish the two could get along.
I clearly stated that there are virused plants in my collection. I also believe that no matter how much pest control you use you can not prevent every insect. That's just common sense. No matter if your plant is showing signs of virus or not it can be transferred via insect, pollen, etc.

I just want to share proper information with people, and I happened to notice some misinformation on your site. Maybe when you state things like your variegated is the best, you should say in your zip code. That would be more proper.

I am sorry if you feel like I am attacking you.

iiiitara, those were personal attacks and it was in print!

So if you have virused plants in your collection why are you not culling/distroying/burning them?

Have you seen any other variegated that can out do what we have posted on our site? I believe she is proforming just as well in Canada, too? Sorry you don't believe what we have posted on our website, it's all from our research. Glad to see you have joined the ranks of the naysayers.

As I stated before it is not a personal attack. I am hoping to get you to spread more useful, accurate information.

I am very sorry that you feel so threatened. That is absolutely in no way my intentions.

This is the type of content of your website I was referring to:
"when any other variegated plant is placed in the same area, they die within a matter of a week."

My 'Maya' is placed in full sun until 3 or 4 in the afternoon. As I'm sure you're aware, the temperatures here in Southern California are regularly over 90 degrees. 'Maya' is the strongest plant in my collection. It holds up to the heat, cold, and insects.

I am in no way saying 'Shorty' might not be as good. ( and it sucks that I have to say that because you're being so defensive) 'Shorty' looks good! It looks like a 'Maya' with a little more Versicolor in it.

But all I'm seeing is information that's seems pretty darn biased. Who grows a 'Maya' cutting that takes two years to flower? With proper technique it should flower at less than two feet tall in less than a year.

As far as growing virused plants goes...... You know why I do it....... But I will spell it out for new growers.

My collection contains virused plants because most plants these days are random multi-hybrids. If we continue along this path all of the Brugmansia hybrids will start to look the same. The true species plants have been propagated so long vegetatively that most if not all have acquired viruses.

As stated I keep my seedlings far away from my collection and any known Brugs.

My collection consists of mostly true species plants. I work toward hybridizing for pure species plants. This ensures we will have these species in the future and I will be able to return seeds of these species to their native habitats if needed. Especially with plants like vulcanicola.

I know what's coming.......... What about 'Maya'??? It's not a pure species. Ahhh... But it is a x Candida, and with enough crossing back to Aurea can be almost 100% Aurea. Or the same thing with Versicolor.

Thank you!
Good night.

iiiitara, if you go to our site you will see where we place B. Shortys on our driveway as this is the only place she will do her thing! We have not hide what we do here and she prefers the hot full sun not the back gardens. If you want history on her we would be glad to share but to attack me and what I have on my site is just so unprofessional. I was challenged once before and have tested her with all the other variegated except Jamie at this time. None of them last when put in the driveway area with her. Her leaves are much thicker then all the variegated ones and really fuzzy. All we have done is post what we do here, sorry if you don't get it? Again I'm tired of those that are naysayers and our photos are our proof.

But again you aren't screaming of the errors on ABADS are you? Where is your site? Sorry if you can't get your plants to preform as we do here?

Take a deep breath, remain calm, and read what I stated very clearly above......

I will state it for you again.

Just state that these things work best in your area. It's that simple. Like I said My maya throws your "only live for a week theory" out the window.
Try 7 years of being the strongest plant in my/and others collection. But that's just in my neck of the woods. Maybe you have more intense sunshine and higher temperatures year round in The Pacific Northwest than we do in Southern California?

And this in no way means that my other plants do not grow and perform well.
And you know it! So please keep those rude remarks to yourself. I grow vulcanicolas in Southern California where I have been told repeatedly that they will never live. Funny, some of mine seem to have buds on them.
Also funny, You were complaining in the other vulcanicola thread about trying to get one to live in a much cooler area.

Yes there are errors on the BGI and ABADS websites. Like I said I don't work for those people. But if people join those sites, there are people on them that are very very knowledgeable about things like viruses and species/cultivar identification, cultivation, and hybridizing.

And yes because of the inaccuracies I found while reading your site recently and the Very Few inaccuracies with species identification on BGI/ABADS
I have decided to put together a new website of my own to provide the highest quality most useful information brought together by the top people playing in this field of Brugmansias.

I wish those two organizations would get along and join as one. Then we would have all of the best answers in one place and I wouldn't have to spend my time/money trying to make a website.

I can go tit-for-tat all day long lady! But I will win!
You know why????????? Because I am young, bored, and a defender of We The Peoples right to know the TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I probably shouldn't involve myself, but uh, iiiitara, you're more than a little out of line, to the point of trolling.

how do you expect people to take you seriously when you're posting LOOK AT ME nonsense like this

"Funny, some of mine seem to have buds on them.
Also funny, You were complaining in the other vulcanicola thread about trying to get one to live in a much cooler area. "

and this

"I can go tit-for-tat all day long lady! But I will win!
You know why????????? Because I am young, bored, and a defender of We The Peoples right to know the TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I hope your "upcoming website" (which I'm sure will be veeeeery impressive) is a bit more professional than your conduct here has been.

Ria

Let's talk about trolling then.

"Sorry if you can't get your plants to preform as we do here?"

"I just love it and it just proves what some members of ABADS and BGI will do to discredit folks because they don't do or should I say bow to what they say or do?"

"Glad to see you have joined the ranks of the naysayers."

The vulcanicola is not any more "LOOK AT ME nonsense" than saying "my variegated outperforms all others everywhere"

I was simply making the point that she should say, in our zone, zone such and such, Shorty's far outperforms the other variegates we have tested. This might not be true for your zone or growing conditions.

This is more accurate and does not confuse people who are new to this genus.

I want accurate information for myself and all of the people who love these plants. That is all I have been saying since the beginning.

And what kind of trolling is this Ria?????

"I hope your "upcoming website" (which I'm sure will be veeeeery impressive)"

Thank you.

rialira, I thank you for what you have stated and yes there are some of us that have discused folks like iiiitara off site. What can you say, but it's hell living in their perfect world? So what he doesn't belive in my site or what we do, there are many naysayers. All I can say is this should be a warning to those that share information as there are folks out there to nick pick you to death!

pfff, don't even think about letting it bother you, karma. you're one of a handful of people I feel like I can get good advice from :)

I don't think that other fine fellow even deserves a response. let's not feed the trolls anymore today.

Ria

This is simply amazing. It's as if you have read none of what I have said, and just continue merrily along your way spreading falsehoods.

I never said i don't believe in 100% of your site or what you do. There is some very useful information on there.

I simply stated there is some information that seems very biased, like some sort of strange attempt to make yourself look like the Brugmansia Expert to End All.

If people read my posts they can clearly see that I am not "perfect" as you've attempted to state i think I am, in what I do. But, I can strive to provide myself and others with better, more positive information.

I do not appreciate your constant slander as I was simply making a request for you to provide more accurate information. And at least I have the guts to say what I have to say here in front of everyone. Not behind your back.

Let me give you an example:

Hi Karma,
I have taken a look at your Maya and Shorty's comparison page. It seems to me, from looking at the pictures, that the reason you may be having a hard time with your Maya is because of overwatering. Also, setting rootbound black pots in the sun can cause major damage to the roots, hence you loosing other variegates.

Just thought I could help you out with some useful information.

Thanks!

Oh..... And by the way. I know you like to argue. And I'm sure you are trying your hardest. But, I'm still providing more accurate information. Hence, I am still winning!

This is for all the people who have been misinformed by you and all of the other people I'm sure you have slandered in your life, whether it was about Brugmansias or not.

I apologize for taking this thread so far off topic. I will start a new thread that begins with the question that was asked before I moved this thread too far away from the original subject.

I apologize to everyone.

Sincerely.