You wanna job? :-)

Thanks for the offer, Bill, but at your $1.25 - $1.75 per square foot labor rate, I'd be lucky to pull minimum wage. Although I think I could do the next one in a quarter of the time.

Maybe I'll consider it if you ever decide to open a Portland West branch :)

Joe

That's what Bill gets, not what he'd pay you to work for him ;).

Trust me-- that's not what Bill gets, either!! LOL Last time I got that kind of money was about 25 years ago!!

great job!!! those niches look tough.

lisa

Ummmmmm..... my mistake-- I thought you were talking about the whole installation-- didn't realise you were talking just about the kerdi!! Those prices you're talking about is the cost of the kerdi itself. My installation charge for the Kerdi's less than that-- it's a buck a foot.

DUH!!

Mongo, ya gotta take it back!

A buck a foot? Cripes! Note to self, never hire myself out for a Kerdi job. You must be super speedy!

Yes, Lisa, those niches were a pain. Let's just say I'm glad I have a tube of Kerdi-fix on hand.

Equally interesting will be calculating my labor rate for tiling. I probably don't want to know that either. It pretty much boils down my general ineptitude working with concrete based products. Oh well, it still beats paying someone else to do it.

Joe

Nice job Joe, and I'm glad the tutorial helped.

That's the one nasty about DIY, by the time you get good at something, you'll never have to do it again.

Unless you move...

Codnuggets,

Just reading this post for the first time tonight, even though I saw it earlier and just couldn't slow down long enough to read it. Probably reading it tonight because we will start Kerdi in 2 days ... me, my laptop computer showing Mongo's post, now your post ... and my contractor's guys, who have never even SEEN Kerdi. Oh, did I forget to mention we will also view Schluter's Kerdi video, which shows a full shower going up in about 3 minutes?

Does this scene seem a little like "Keystone Cops?" I'm imagining we will make for quite a group, all gathered around my shower, going to Kerdi school. If I don't faint in the process, I hope to record it all in pictures. I'm not promising to post any, however. One of those "if I show them to ya, I'll hafta kill ya" situations. :)

Did I mention that you did a beautiful job? You are, however, a perfectionist...I'm remembering the hex tiles. :) I'm dreading the niche ... luckily, I have only one large one.

Gotta go. Time for me to locate and read Toadangel's Kerdi post! Gotta be ready for school on Friday. :) Y'all pray for me.

Anne

Codnuggets,

A serious question. Upon second observation, I did not notice a Kerdi drain. Did you use one, or a different type drain?

Anne

Anne, I'm sure you'll do fine. It's really not that difficult if you take your time and have a little patience with the products. The Schluter video is quite helpful too, and Mongo's tutorial obviously.

Oh, and about those hex tiles. I've gone back and looked at those pictures I posted and I realize I was being ridiculously critical. The problem was that I had waited about 6 weeks for those tiles and the anticipation ramped up my expectations. Honestly, I haven't even looked at the tiles since then, and I'm sure they'll look great. From now on it's stop, think, then post.

Good luck! And ya gotta post the pics :)

It is an ABS Kerdi drain. What you see there is just the outer assembly that is set into the tray recess, then Kerdi on top. The inner assembly goes into recess you see in the pic when tile goes in. At least that's how I remember it, it's been a while since I watched the video. It may be hard to see in those pics because I was sloppy and got thinset all over everything. These should help:

Joe

hey joe - have you installed that final part of the drain yet? i still have to do mine, but no one can really give me a clear idea of *how*. everyone seems to say just put thinset around it, tile up to it, and it'll work out. any other words of (clearer) wisdom?

i also wonder how the metal part doesn't just slide all the way down once it's in place & you step on it for the first time... or maybe it does :)

lisa

I haven't installed the inner drain yet, but I think I remember how from the Schluter video. The plastic flange is set in the tray depression with thinset. There is a little play in the alignment to allow a fudge factor to get it line up with your tile appropriately. The height adjustable drain collar fits into the flange and you apply more thinset around the collar and under the drain edge to set it all in solidly. The drain gets pushed down even with the tile surface and should be fully supported by thinset all around everything.

That's pretty close, but I would defer to the video to be certain.

Joe

lisa,

If you look at Joe's picture of the drain, see the gray plastic ring that goes around the gray cylindrical drain? You can see that the ring has "fingers" that bring the ring into contact with the cylinder. It's a friction-fit ring, so the ring can slide up and down the cylinder, which allows you to adjust the height of the square metal plate up and down.

That same cylinder? It's slightly less in diameter than the hole in the drain flange, so the square metal plate assembly can be moved laterally. It gives a bit of flexibility in allowing you to get the drain where you want it in your tile layout.

Going back a bit to the gray plastic ring. See how that sits in the depression in the flange? First you want to "test fit" the drain, so set the drain in the drain flange and push the square metal cap down so the top of the metal square is about the same height as the top of the tile.

When you've tiled up to it and are ready to set the drain, remove the drain. Then throw a generous ring of thinset in the depression in the flange and embed the drain (and the gray ring with fingers) in the thinset. At the same time you push the square metal plate down to get it flush with the tops if the tiles.

When you place the drain and set the ring into thinset, you'll push the metal square down to where it's flush with the tile, which will result in the metal square being fully supported underneath by thinset.

I hope that makes sense?

Mongo

hmmm... thanks for the details guys. Joe - i have watched that video so many times - they just move so darn fast & don't explain things at my level. i pick up something new every time, though, so i will definitely watch it again as time draws near

mongo - you've had the most detailed description yet and i really appreciate you taking the time & thought to do that. i'm going to have to re-read it a few times with the inner drain pieces in front of me to grasp it all - i'll get back to you :)

thanks!

best of luck to all you amateur kerdi-ites out there :)

lisa

I have been busy the last couple of days since Joe first posted those pics, hunting for granite shower trim, and this is the first time I have gotten to review anything. I want you all to know that it is the middle of the night, and I have just read the last 4 posts. Not only have I NOT understood the answers, I have not understood the questions!!

How am I going to be the teacher at Kerdi school when I cannot even successfully read the lesson plans??! For sure, I am now terrified. And I was doing so well.

Ok, I've just had some chocolate. Now I'm all better. Can someone tell me if the reference being made to the Schluter video is that quick little one where the guy really does Kerdi the shower in about 3 minutes? Or is there a longer and more detailed one someplace? Website page, someone, please?

Anne

anne - i was talking about the dvd that came with my kerdi shower kit. i don't think it's online, but i may be wrong. it has weird 70's p*rn music, but other than that is pretty good. it shows each step of using the shower kit, including the 2 different ways you can attach the kerdi drain flange. they explain more than the quick video on the website, but still not enough for me, who had never seen thinset before.

have you bought john bridge's kerdi book? i personally think mongo's post speaks to me better, but john's book is a good complement to what i found here on GW. i'd recommend printing out at leasat part of it on a color printer, though it will use a bunch of ink. but the color changes in the kerdi as thinset fills in behind it were important for me to understand, and his pics helped.

lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: JB kerdi book

Lisa,

Thanks so much. I have been hearing about John Bridge's Kerdi book, but I had not gotten around to reviewing it. I have to go out today on another "wild goose, I mean granite chase," and I will stop in at Barnes & Nobles to locate it, unless it's at Lowe's.

Thanks about the DVD. My Kerdi order just came in on yesterday, but I did not even open the boxes. (Probably afraid that one part of it did not ship, and I just didn't want the bad news yet.) :)) The DVD is supposed to be packed with the drain, as I bought components seperately, not the complete shower system. Since the tile guys are not coming until Monday, that will give me the weekend to review more.

I remembered that Mongo made a reference in his post that it is a little 'tricky' to juggle keeping the drain at the proper level while doing something or the other with the thinset. Then thought I, "If it is tricky for Mongo, what is it going to be like for the rest of us?" When Joe was explaining to you about the drain last night, (using terms I'd never heard before making me feel really dumb), I saw Mongo's post come up next. I thought, "Great! The 'drain waters' are about to part and soon I will have clarity."

Mongo lost me at the second sentence. Somewhere around "ring fingers and friction-fit ring." I ate more chocolate and went to bed.

I'm just poking fun at myself. 'Things are aIways clearer in the morning,' and your input has really helped. I think looking at the DVD will also help, and I have already printed Mongo's post in color for the guys, but my actual laptop screen actually shows the color change in the Kerdi much better than the printed page, so I do plan to have it charged and handy. I agree reading Joe's and Mongo's explanations while holding the actual drain parts in our hands will make it clearer for such 'renowned women remodelers' as ourselves. :) "Hands-on" always works better for me.

Anne

toadangel,

Oops, Lisa. Didn't go to your link until AFTER I posted the above. I had forgotten that I had heard that John Bridge's book was only available on line.

Shucks, now I have no excuse to go to Lowe's again... like I seem to do every other day!

Anne

Sorry to have muddled things. But hey, I drove you to chocolate, so I actually did a good thing!

I'm on the road so the best I could do with the computer I'm on is to use Joe's picture with Paint to label things. I hope you don;t mind me using your pic, Joe.

{{gwi:1395684}}

The ring and the cylinder are two separate pieces. The fingers on the ring grip the cylinder, so you can slide the ring up and down the cylinder and that sliding up and down action allows you to adjust the height of the square metal drain cap.

In Joe's picture, the Kerdi Drain flange has already been installed, and it's covered with Kerdi. The depression that the ring sits in is part of the already installed flange.

Looking at the picture, if you pressed down on the square metal plate, the cylinder would slide downwards through the ring. You'll do that to set the top of the metal plate flush with the top surface of your floor tile.

Again, if Joe's floor were tiled up to the drain, when it's time to set the drain I would:

1) Remove the gray drain assembly, which when all snapped together includes the gray ring, the gray cylinder and the square metal plate.

2) lay a ring of thinset around the open drain hole, in the "depression" of the Kerdi flange.

3) Place the gray drain assembly back in the drain flange, pushing it into the ring of thinset. Thinset will ooze through the holes in that gray ring.

4) If needed, at this time a little more thinset can be placed on TOP of that gray ring, right up against the gray cylinder, between the ring and the square metal plate. You won;t need much.

5) Now push down on the metal plate, gently. The pressure will force the cylinder through the gray ring, causing the height of the metal plate to go lower. Keep pressing until the top of the metal plate is flush, or just slightly below, the height of the adjacent tiles. This may cause some thinset to squeeze out, that's desired, as it means you have complete support underneath the square metal plate.

You want to think of setting the square metal plate as it it were just another piece of tile. thinset under it, push it down in place so it's the same height as the neighboring tiles, and clean up and squeeze out.

Does this help?

Or did I send you off on another chocolate run? :)

Mongo

I was just about to push the buy button for a Schluter Kerdi shower kit (32x60 w/off center drain tray) when I discovered this site. Tile Security.com has it for $420.12 which includes 2-4'curbs and shipping. Sound about right? Is everyone happy with this system and final results? I also missed the info on niches. Are they just kerdi over a backerboard frame-in or are they Noble or Pro Spec products? Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this as it will be very helpful.

WOW! Mongo,

I get it! I get it!. And if I do, toadangel really will. Lisa's actually been WORKING ... I've only been WORRYING. I think your crayon lettering is what took me over the top; I could actually see what the 'fingers' were and how they worked! When I read, and understood ... the first sentence, I felt so proudt*. ...Proudt means 'extra proud.'

I almost didn't want to read the next sentence because I was certain that clarity would end, but I got all the way through it. I am SO gonna fake it in front of those tile guys next week! They will think I actually know what I'm doing.

However, it would have been better if I had a nice square pattern in my floor tiles. But as usual, I had to make it faincy*. ...Means extra fancy. My floor tiles are herringbone 1 x 2's. Hmmnn. I can just imagine what fun that's going to be aligning those against that square drain. Life's never dull around here.

Thanks Mongo, you're the best! I'll save my chocolate for the next crisis episode (in this on-going remodel soap-opera), 'soon to be appearing in your local GW theatre.'

Anne

I'm glad that the MS Paint notations on the photo helped.

Your 1" by 2" herringbone pattern could fit quite well with the 4" square drain cap.

Consider turning the drain 45 degrees to match the bias of the herringbone pattern and it should fit right in with the pattern, minimizing the number of tile cuts that need to be made.

What they should do it dry lay the tile on the floor. then drop the drain into the flange and see how the drain fits your pattern.

That gray cylinder part of the drain? It's a little bit less in diameter than the hole in the flange that it drops into. It was designed that way so you can move the drain a little laterally to better fit your tile layout.

It'll all make sense when you get to that part of the project.

Mongo

riter,

The best place for you to go to learn about niches and "everything you ever wanted to know about a Kerdi shower" is Mongo's post, "Kerdi Shower." I don't know on what page it is currently, you may have to hunt for it. You may also try the GW search engine, but it doesn't always work for me.

Toadangel also recommended John Bridge's on line Kerdi book, but most people think Mongo's post is the best thing out there. Because I am neurotic, I read everything available that is good, and I am not DIY. I just need to know as much as my contractor, who has never put in Kerdi. See toadangel's post above (in this thread) for the John Bridge link.

Sorry, I cannot speculate on whether or not that is a good cost for you on the shower kit. Good Luck.

mommielady

Mongo,

You tile guys never cease to amaze me, you are just brilliant! I never would have thought in a million years about turning the drain on a diagonal to match the angle of those little herringbone rascals. That should make my drain really 'cute and girly,' and it will minimize cuts. I will be certain to have them lay it out dry before positioning the drain. Thanks a lot!

Now I can sleep tonite. :)
Anne

mommielady,
Thank you for the tip to Mongo's post "Kerdi Shower". GW search engine struck out repeatedly but I finally found it by Googling: Mongo Kerdi Shower. It really does have a wealth of info and it's much appreciated. I'm going to bite the bullet and order the kit. Again thank you.

riter,

I'll also recommend you get a price check at "tile experts dot com" and "tile protection dot com".

They may or may not beat your price, but ordering through the john bridge forum links to tile experts helps throw a few dollars in the direction of that forum, and tile protection has always given me exemplary service.

As to niches, I have always framed mine, then covered them in hardieboard, then covered that with Kerdi. I find hardieboard (fibercement) to be a bit easier to cut into thin strips than wonderboard or durock (true cement boards), and it's also easier to screw thin strips of hardie than thin strips of cement board.

Scroll through the Kerdi Shower thread and you'll see a few pictures regarding the niche.

Mongo

Mongo,
Thanks for the tip on framing-in and using hardiboard for the niches as it will save me some real money. Thanks too for the refer to the other sites for the kerdi kits. And I can't thank you enough for the the really clear posting and pictures in the Kerdi shower thread, they are really going to come in handy when I get started. I do have one question (well so far). I'm using 1" hex tile for both the bathroom and shower floor. The existing bathroom floor is 12x12 porcelain tile with a sort of anti-slip surface. I've been told that the Kerdi shower tray will adhere to the porcelain tile with thin set as described in the Kerdi install but I'm wondering if thinset is going to hold the 1" hex directly over the existing porcelain tile in the rest of the bathroom?
Again many many thanks for your kind assistance.

You're setting the 1" hex directly over the 12" tile?

I've only tiled over tile once, in that case I took a belt sander with 36 grit belts to the existing tile, it roughened the surface up nicely so the thinset could bond well.

Belt sanding will also take care of any wax/dirt/grease or whatever that anti-skid layer is that you have. You never know if that anti-skid coating will help or hinder adhesion.

I'd also recommend using a dry set thinset (unmodified) and then modifying it on your own with liquid acrylic admix.

Mongo

Mongo,
I think the 12x12 tile isn't coated but has the rough anti-slip surface stamped into the tile and is only partially glazed before firing but the belt sander tip will certainly add to adhesion so I'll do that. Thanks for the tip! Will look at the liquid acrylic admix next time at Home Depot or Lowes to see the directions and application.

Mongo,
Forgot to ask if I should fill in or use some kind of leveling compound on the grout joints of the 12x12 tile before putting down the 1" hex over them? Again thanks for all your valuable help.

No need for SLC, just fill them with thinset as you go along.

Use the flat side of the trowel to apply the thinset to the sanded tiles and grout lines, then come back on a 45-degree angle to the tile and comb it out with the notched side of the trowel.

The flat side of the trowel will force the thinset into the nooks and crannies of the sanded down tiles and grout lines, subsequent combing with the notched side will remove the excess thinset, leaving a measured amount of thinset on the floor for your hex application.

Mongo

Home Depot carries Custom's product line, so the admix should look something like this.

Do not let them talk you into a "premixed thinset" or a "premixed grout". If they try, simply laugh in their general direction.

You want a highly modified thinset, the best bet is to add an acrylic admix to a dry powder thinset.

I think Custom's thinset products at HD are: MasterBlend thinset, which is not modified, then VersaBond, which is lightly modified, and FlexBond, which is highly modified.

Read the Admix directions, you may be able to add th admix to any of those products.

Highly modified thinsets have to both chemically cure (the portland cement part) and air dry (the latex admix part) so after you do the install give it sufficient time before you walk on the hex. Since you're using small hex tiles, it should cure/dry quite easily.

Mongo

riter, about your Kerdi,

If you haven't already ordered your Kerdi, Tile-Experts was $44 more than Tile Protection for the same products (enough for a 52" x 66" shower) but Tile Experts was able to ship the same day. Tile Protection could not ship until about 2 or so days later. Both companies' salespeople were very helpful.

So it just depends on whether you've got 'deep pockets' or lots of time.

Mongo, if you're still out there,

Is there a brand of thinset that you recommend for Kerdi installation? I will probably be purchasing from HD. I can go to Lowe's, as well.

Thanks,
Anne

All brands work equally well. Just make sure you get the right kind, unmodified or modified, for what you're sticking it to or for what you're sticking to it.

I'm fairly certain that HD sells Custom Brands, Lowe's sells Laticrete. I think Lowes has Mapei as well. Not sure.

We will be applying Kerdi to Hardi backer. So Modified or Unmodified? Also my contractor told me that he has a 'membrane' but he couldn't remember the name of it that he usually has his guys put on over Hardi.

He knows that I have purchased the Kerdi and that we will be putting it up, but he says that if he puts on his stuff (undeclared 'membrane') first, then we will have 2 membranes, and it sounds logical that this will be 'double protection.'

I got the cold sweats wondering how I tell him that I don't want to jeopardize my $480 (includes shipping) Kerdi investment by putting it on top of some 'membrane' (that he can't remember the name of). I seem to remember that of the thousand posts I have read, 'somebody' has said that a 'double moisture barrier' is not a good thing. Any thoughts? This is my contractor's first Kerdi experience.

Would it not be funny if his 'membrane' is actually Kerdi? :) No such luck.

Anne

For Kerdi over Hardie, I'd use either an unmodified thinset or a lightly modified thinset.

Remember, the more modified the thinset is, the more free air it need access to so that it can dry. The portland cement part of thinset is a chemical cure, it needs no air. The latex modifier needs access to air to dry. With air unable to pass through Kerdi, it can't dry really well, that's why you don't want to use a heavily modified thinset.

So unmodified or lightly modified.

You're using Kerdi, so you don't want them putting 6-mil plastic behind the hardie, nor do you want him putting his mystery membrane on the hardie before the Kerdi goes up. Or over the Kerdi after the Kerdi is up.

The Kerdi is all that you need.

A membrane bonded to another membrane would still count as just one membrane. What you don't want is one membrane behind the hardie (like 6-mil poly) and another in front of the hardie (like Kerdi). That would be a double vapor barrier.

The Kerdi is all you need. Note the repetition?

How do you tell him to not use his mystery membrane? Say "Do not use your mystery membrane that you don't even know the name of in my bathroom."

If he asks why, say "Because my unknown cyber-friend named Mongo, who I've never met, said so."

And so it must be...

>

LOL Mongo :) i have said some of that very stuff to my friend and gotten that grumpy "what the heck do those internet guys know that i don't know... why are you trusting a guy you've never met instead of me... why don't you just call your internet guys up & have *them* help you do all this stuff". And he's my friend! i can't imagine how a pro i don't know would take to it. yikes :)

*WE* all know you guys are straightup the best out there, but when we try to tell non-internet guys about you, especially when god forbid your advice isn't what they were planning to do, i can just hear those eyes thudding as they roll.

but it's SO worth it because of the quality results we end up with!!! so i definitely appreciate you guys so much.

just struck me as hilarious when you said it so bluntly :)

good luck with that, anne :)

lisa

Well, they do have a point.

Since no one has ever asked me what I do in real life I suppose now is as good a time as any to fess up:

I'm the guy who puts the mini-marshmallow in the bottom of waffle cones. No snide remarks. It's a lot more difficult than it seems. Especially when you love to eat marshmallows.

Mongo ;^)

Mongo and Lisa,

I just got back home. It is midnight CST which means it's 1:00am where you guys are, (I think) and I'm sitting here REALLY laughing out loud!! Lisa, you are sooo right about the disbelief you get from non-forum users about the right way to do things, especially when we learn this from "cyberpeople". And I did chuckle also about Mongo's frank presentation about how I should tell my contractor, "I don't want your stinkin' membrane!" Where's 'Marshmallow Guy' going to be when Joe Contractor is rolling his eyes? at moi?

Ok, ok, I'll do it. I keep thinking about my hard-earned $480 being sabotaged by 'mystery membrane.' Will these Kerdi days EVER be over? And I will get unmodified thinset. Lisa, wanna come help?

Anne

help? you want *me* to help? :) sorry, but i set my deadline at may 23rd, since that's when i bought my house last year. got too much to do here!

you have my long distance support though :)

just make sure they mix the thinset a bit loose (more water) - i still am trying to figure out a way to deal with the bumpy walls i created by using thinset that was mixed according to the bag directions instead of to look like mongo's picture.

lisa

p.s. - mongo, i used to work at dairy queen so maybe i used some of your mallow cones ;) i thought i saw a little thinset on one...

Lis,

Thanks for the tip on the 'loose' thinset. You mentioned on your own thread that you were glad that your 'ramblings' on your Kerdi experience were helpful to me. Gosh, Kid, your ramblings made me feel so...well...NORMAL. Like, there were other people out there experiencing 'a question at every corner', just like me. So keep posting.

These little encounters are really encouraging...and humourous. I just wish I didn't spend so much time at this computer having FUN with my cyberfriends, maybe we could get more Kerdi laid. Where's Joe, anyway, he started all of this?

The guys still haven't shown today. :( But that's ok, because I still have not ordered my heated floor mats, and the floor tiles are what's up next after the shower. Gonna force myself to stay at this computer, find the best brand at the best price, and ORDER, today! ...That is...maybe.

Mongo, check your email, Marshmallow Man.

Mongo,
Hope you are still around as I finally got my Kerdi Shower Kit a little over a week ago but then had to leave town for my 50th High School Reunion (Yeah, they all look as old as I am). Okay, Membrane and drain look great but what about that FOAM shower tray and curb? Woah, I'm having trouble thinking about standing on it or stepping on it much less sticking membrane and tile to it? Is it really strong enough? I'm planning to put up a single slab of glass rather than traditional shower doors and wonder if attaching the channel (to hold the glass) is going to be a problem or do I just stick it to the tile with a silicone adhesive? Nervously awaiting your reply.
Riter

joe - i know you've moved on from this & posted your progress, but i just wanted to say thanks to mongo, in case he pops in here. i did my shower floor last night & his descriptions of how to set the second part of the drain helped so much. mine actually looks quite a bit different than yours, even the first part of the drain, but it seemed to come together fine & my friend stopped by this morning & gave it a big thumbs up. so thanks mongo! it helps so much to have someone who knows what they're doing but can still talk to those of us who don't in a way that makes sense to us :)

lisa

As to the morter to use with Kerdi.....The very BEST is "DitraSet" unmodified morter. It's put out by Hydroment....so, look for a dealer in your area. Since it's unmodified, it requires only water to hydrate or "cure." A modified morter requires air to cure. Trust this: it WILL set up and hold like a ......well, you know!

Do NOT confuse this with a typical $10 a bag "unmodified" type HD morter. While, not "Latex Modified," it does have the very highest quality materials in the mix. If you can find it...use it! You'll never go back........