I don't know anything about top loaders sold today. Do they use enough water to completely submerge the clothes?

While it does have a soak function, you can still open the machine door during the soak, so it essentially just keeps the laundry barely wet.Yup, saturated wet with detergent solution, which sounds like soaking to me. :-)

Jerrod6, yes agitator toploaders still fill to completely submerge the clothes. Not sure how full F&P's AquaSmart impeller models fill in "traditional wash" mode, but it should be quite a lot. Same for the Oasis/Cabrio/Bravos on the bulky cycles. At least one of them (Oasis?) has (or did have, if that has since been changed) a specific towels cycle that filled a lot. The GE Harmony also has one more cycles that fill to a high level.

well dragonesse you just bought the WRONG FL. I have a set of Mieles and we have a HOG farm. All I have to do is put in my whites dial up the "whitest Whites", put in my HE Gain and let er rip. Out comes the most blinding whites you have ever seen and I did not even have to soak them.Until you experience the RIGHT FL, don't talk!

You have my attention, pkspigs! We are moving shortly and are in the market for another w/d combo, and the one thing I really want to improve over the Siemens is the way the whites come out. I want blinding whites! What Miele do you have? I understand their compact models, which have been discontinued since November 07, heat the water up to 200F, whereas the larger capacity models do not, but they do have a special function for whites. What I don't understand is how that special function works - what does it do to make up for the lack of ability to heat the water to nearly boiling point. Thanks!

I'm surprised. Most of the time the Bosch/Siemens users report excellent results. I thought they heated in the area of 200° too. Could be confusing with something else though. Are you sure you're using the machine correctly?

I think none of the larger capacity machines are able to heat the water above 170F, and most don't go above 150F or so. It's an efficiency thing. If you know of one that does get up to 200F let me know, because I want it!

I have a Bosch Nexxt washer and don't have any problems keeping or getting my whites white. The soak cycle works really well on set in stains. The amount of water doesn't matter as long as the clothes are saturated with water and detergent/oxiclean (like dadoes mentioned above).
When I do an oxiclean soak I manually add some hot water to wash down the oxiclean and fully activate it. After the two hour soak cycle is finished I start a hot wash and everything gets nice and clean. I haven't yet seen any TL that washes better than my Bosch.

I grew up in Europe as well and know that the washers there have the option to do a 200 F wash, but most people I know very rarely use that cycle and some never do. Most fabrics suffer from those ultra high temperatures. Besides, detergents have gotten so much better that there really isn't a need for extremely high temperatures. I like the sanitary cycle (170 F)of the Bosch as it just keeps that high temperature for 3 minutes to kill germs and then goes back to 150 F. Much gentler on clothes than a constant temperature of 200 F.

I definitely prefer FLs over TLs. The newer TLs with ATC don't allow any temperatures that are high enough to effectively kill germs. I don't use bleach and even our old, not at all energy efficient TL couldn't get musty or foul smells out of our towels and rags. The Bosch does MUCH better even at temperatures of just 120 F.

Looser, we have the same machine then (the Bosch Nexxt is the same as my Siemens UltraSense). When I do an oxy clean soak I put the powder right into the drum, in addition to the regular detergent (I've been using Tide HE, and am unimpressed). It sounds like you use the dispenser instead?

My whites are dull. I once took a white fitted sheet and boiled it for about a quarter of an hour in a large pot right on the stove, with detergent. The dullness came right out, it was beautiful. I could never get that with my washer, and I always assumed it was the inability to hit that high temperature.

Could I simply be using too much detergent? I always fill the cup to the topmost line, for the biggest, and dirtiest loads.

dragonese,
yes, I do put the oxiclean and/or detergent and other additives in the dispenser. I really like the fact that it is not a drawer like on many other machines. For the soak cycle I normally just use oxiclean and no detergent. The oxiclean actually deactivates the enzymes in the detergent if you add them at the same time.
Before I start the soak cycle I add about one liter of almost boiling water to wash down the oxiclean into the washer. This activates it and makes it much more effective than the cold soak alone.
I guess a small drawback of the soak cycle is that it just uses cold water. A hot soak option would be ideal. The hot water in the beginning really does the trick though.

It is very possible that the use of too much detergent causes the dullness of your laundry. I have tried Tide HE and learned that I have to cut way back on the amount and it still doesn't rinse well. Don't you get a problem with suds when you add that much detergent? I just once added a little more Tide because the load was dirtier, but that didn't go over too good. The washer added three or four extra rinses to get rid of all the suds. Have you ever tried any other detergents? I use the Sears Ultra Stain fighting powder for most loads and it works very well. I use only half a scoop for regular loads, so the bucket will last a LONG time.

I know Miele makes very good appliances, but they basically work the same way as the Bosch. I think you should experiment a little with different kinds and amounts of detergents before dismissing Bosch/Siemens washers. Even in Germany Miele seems to be a little over priced. Bosch and AEG always perform very well in the German consumer tests (Stiftung Warentest) and are more reasonably priced.

Thanks for the tips! I will play around with it some more, though we'll only have it for another two weeks before we move. I've been reluctant to use powder detergent because it feels so harsh to me somehow, so chemical-ey... I guess it's psychological, but liquid detergent seems a little more gentle. I have two young toddlers, who both have pretty delicate skin. Btw, when I said Tide HE, I meant Tide HE 2x - don't know if that's what you had in mind.

I have a TOP LOADER, and would NEVER want a Front Loader. I used one once, and my clothes had dirt streaks on them after they were done washing. The tiny stream of water that dispenses into the wash drum is the reason why....not enough water...like a good TOP LOADER that fills the washer with water. I'll take a TOP LOADER over a Front Loader ANY DAY.........hands down.

dragonesse,
yes, the Tide that I have tried was a 2x concentrate as well. I use it for hot washes now because it rinses okay then. The amount I used when I got a suds problem was probably about a quarter of what P&G recommends for a full load.
I don't have a gentleness problem with the powder at all. It seems much easier to measure and it completely dissolves and rinses well.
For my delicates I sometimes use the Woolite HE detergent that came with the washer. That also works better than the Tide HE, IMO.

angelic_one2002,
good for you if you are happy with a TL. Trying a FL ONCE seems to provide all the experience you need for making an informed decision.
I grew up with FLs and used various TLs for approximately three years. I gave the TLs a serious chance, but they just never performed well. I have used FLs MANY times and never had dirt streaks on my clothes. Not in Germany and also not with my U.S. made FL...

angelic_one2002, although around here suggesting a TL is better than a FL can be fightin' words for a few forumers, one use is hardly a fair test, upon which it's fair to condemn an entire design of a system, don't you agree?

One thing of which I'm convinced: Changing from a TL to a FL requires a learning curve to know how to use them properly. Frankly, that's one of the hesitations I have about switching to a FL. I don't do that many loads and by the time I really give it a fair test, learn how to use it correctly and get the experience and most importantly, get the dosing down for my water, I wouldn't be able to return it if it were bad. Hey, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me! :)

I think there's other reasons to not like or want to consider a FL, for me a big negative is the low front opening. Physically, for me, that will be a challenge. I'd need a pedestal and that increases the cost substantially.

I don't really understand the spray rinses on the F&P machines and the low water rinses on the FL, but I do accept that it's an old basic design that works for many. But I'm not going to condemn what I don't understand and haven't learned to use.

No offense intended, so don't take this wrong, but your credibility is called into question when you say something like this, just like the other end of the pendulum seen so often where people claim that TL users are walking around in stinky, filthy clothes. I like to think that I'm fairly impartial. I own a TL but am seriously considering a FL when (and if!) replacement time comes. There's advantages and yes, disadvantages to each type too. You need to weigh your priorities to get the best machine for your needs and that requires reason and rational thinking.

No lecture intended.