Well sheesh! When all those boxes are lined up next to one another they give each other strength so I can't see them collapsing easier than framed cupboards. Framed cabinets are more structurally sound, if you even want to call it that, simply because of the frame in front of the opening but I honestly don't think the difference is that big. We wanted framless, our cabinet company only does framed BUT the frame is very small. It is flush with the base of the cabinets (where it counts for sliding things in and out) and only overlaps the sides by 1/4 of an inch. Maybe this is something you can work with.

And he is OH SO WRONG with that installation comment. Almost EVERY ceiling and all walls are out of plumb so installing with a gap accounts for this in both frameless and framed cabinets. It has NOTHING to do with the cabinets and EVERYTHING to do with the structure of your house. That's what scribed molding is for and unless your ceiling is off by a LARGE amount, you won't need a LARGE piece of molding

In remodeling, you frequently have to choose between making some strange guy happy or doing what you want.

The flooring guy will give you good reasons why he has to install first, then the cabinet guy will do the same, then the painter will claim he has to be in their first.

It was never ending, and in the end it was all about what made them feel good or made it easier for them.

It wasn't about getting what I wanted or doing it right.

This comes up periodically. Here's the reasons why cab makers don't like frameless:

1) They're used to doing framed. They can almost knock them out in their sleep. Frameless takes more care and a few different pieces of equipment.

2) Because frameless has no frontal rigidity, you shouldn't go over 32" wide without a front stile for support. Some people object to this look.

3) Most cabs are of particleboard or MDF. These are heavy, frameless or not. To hang the uppers takes two people, one to lift and one to screw it in. Contractors love it when you choose a plywood upgrade - not only more profit on materials for them, but the cabs are lighter and one person can do the install. Labor savings!

I have frameless and I live in the Oakland hills. It is ridiculous to say frameless won't last in an earthquake. They are bolted to the wall the same way as framed. When cabinets are lined up next to one another they gain considerable lateral strength against swaying.

I have frameless cabs everywhere, and no doubt you do too. I'm speaking of bookcases, which are a simple frameless cabinet. Not only have these basic particleboard boxes lasted intact through 35 years and three moves, they carry more weight in art books than any one of my kitchen cabs, without bowing.

I agree with loves2cook4six that ALL walls are out of plumb. We gutted our cottage, removed all plaster, drywalled everywhere - and the walls are very much still out of plumb. My countertop vendor had to really fiddle with the measurements to get my Swanstone countertop flush against the wall!

During a minor remodel I had a great guy doing the work. Even then I had to talk him into certain things that were new to him. These guys really don't like change except in small doses, which makes sense when you think about it. Their livelihood is their skills, and any time there's a learning curve it slows you down. Time for them is quite literally money.

Frameless cabs are all the rage up here in Alaska, where we have more earthquakes than all of the US combined annually, and some of the largest. I've yet to hear a friend complain about the issue, and infact, my contractor was just showing me pictures of the FABULOUS kitchen he just did in frameless cabinets up on the hillside (where it shakes more).

I interviewed two cabinet makers, and both were long time alaskan's. They both offered frameless and traditional cabinets. They were both fabulous craftsmen and in the kitchens I visited, once again I didn't see any cabs ready to fall off the walls :)

Find another source for your cabinets. It's NEVER worth the money to force someone to do something they don't know how to do right (I know this to the tune of many thousands of dollars). If they express doubt, walk out :) (My motto after the first ten grand was thrown away).

My dh teaches cabinet-making and built our frameless cabinets. He used to do framed, until he visited the shop of a high-end custom cabinet-maker who does almost exclusively frameless. He reorganized his whole shop after that and changed his curriculum, believing that frameless offered so much more in room, accessibility, and flexibility. He is a guy who would never give on structural integrity, so I certainly trust this judgment. Although not Alaska or the Bay Area, we are in earthquake-prone country, too. I would never want go back to framed after having frameless.

I'm not in earthquake country now but was once. I don't think it's going to make any difference if you get well made cabinets of one type or the other. If you get an earthquake strong enough to loosen the cabinets I have on my walls now, it's going to take things down anyway. I love the frameless and would find someone who is happy working with them, look at Ikea or order a semi custom line (mine are Brookhaven)

"In remodeling, you frequently have to choose between making some strange guy happy or doing what you want."

Thanks for the laugh! And great to hear of all the frameless cabs surviving on shaky ground. Bookcase analogy was much appreciated. We keep our Ikea cases bolted to the wall and have never lost a fossil or geode on display. I work in a research lab, and noticed today that all of cabinets (holding toxic chemicals) are essentially frameless. So far I've only spoken to the contractors by phone, so I'll ask to see photos of their previous frameless projects.

Anyone here remember Fairegold? She used to say...
You can't go to the Chevrolet dealer and expect him to sing the praises of Ford.

If you want frameless, find someone who makes them or a manufacturer who does. Don't buy frameless from the grumbling guy who is telling you how bad they are.

Remember this: Both framed and frameless cabs are available in good and bad quality. Frameless has advantages in space and accessibility. Framed has advantages in appearance (if you prefer the frame showing between doors). Get what you want. Don't give in to some contractor who shouldn't be making the decisions about your kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: previous framed/frameless discussion

I personally think that the cabinetmaking industry in the U.S. is slow to embrace change (I have read as much in some industry publications) If he doesn't want to make them and thinks they are inferior I would just go with full overlay (they look the same-and him not wanting to make them makes me think he doesn't have a lot of experience doing it and he won't stand behind them if you have any problems). However in regards to the space; full overlay also requires door clearance because the doors are flush to the box so you need a space between the ceiling or moulding for them to swing freely - many mouldings are designed to create the space for the doors to swing clearly. My Mom has frameless and wouldn't have anything else.

I presume they don't realise that frameless has been the standard in Europe since 1945?
The whole thing came about because of post-war materials shortages. So carpenters had to work out how to make cabinets out of less wood. And people realised how much better they were, with more space etc, and never looked back.

I'm in So. Cal.--plenty of earthquakes. My cabinet maker likes frameless. When I suggested framed for the laundry room to solve a problem he looked at me like I was cracked, and went for a stile instead. I think my top molding is spec'd at 1.5". It just has to be big enough not to look dumb.

I think it's the guys you've been interviewing who're cracked. :) I promise you, we'd have heard if all those frameless cabinets they've been installing all over L.A. were racking more than framed in earthquakes.

Is Becktheeng reading this? It seems weird to me that the cabinets would collapse but the wall would be intact. The idea makes me worry about what they're making their boxes out of.

Contractors have their own schtick. They like to do what they like to do. Paradigm shifting is not one of their strong points.

The difference between a good quality framed cabinet and a good quality frameless cabinet is essentially the look that you achieve using one or the other. (I realize there are other differences based upon their construction but a main reason to choose one over the other from a design standpoint is esthetics, not durability)

Just met the second estimator in person. Strike 2! He kept telling me that frameless can never go all the way to the ceiling because they need to be scribed to fit the irregular ceiling. So I show him 4 photos off the web of frameless going to the ceiling and he tells me I've found the exceptions to the rule. Then he tells me a lazy Susan in a corner cabinet is a huge waste of space and belongs in a "gingerbread house". I knew within 5 minutes it wasn't going to work with this guy, but it seemed too rude to just cut him off. Last guy comes next Tuesday, then it may be back to Lowe's for the Kraftmaid Venicia. At least I know the cabinets will be made correctly. I'm in Inland S. Cal, the land that time forgot.

Framed cabinets do not have an enormous scribe rail on the top, if the ceiling is way off you have to use a filler strip anyway. With frameless you just use a filler strip.
If you don't want moulding you make it as narrow as possible, and usually it is hidden from view when the door is closed by the overlay door.

No one has mentioned the increased amount of space you get with frameless, which was very important to us. When we remodeled we replaced our framed cabinets with frameless and the KD said that would give us an additional 10% storage space. I believe it did. We live 3 miles away from the San Andreas Fault. Get a different contractor.

-Babka

With frameless the doors are flush to the box you have to have space at the top for them to open and close without rubbing against the ceiling. You can't scribe frameless cabinets or you have to scribe the doors. As palimpsest says the filler may be very narrow but it is there.

Not sure what you and the estimator were talking about but he wasn't completely wrong.

Pllog...I'm here...and I'm getting frameless. Like previous posters have said, the stability is dependent on the quality of the cabinet not the type of frame/frameless construction cabinet.

If you have a house that has differential settlement (caused by either earthquake or soil movement) all cabinets will have issues, not just frameless. Most houses in So. Cal....even the IE...are on slab to help prevent differential settlement. The best type of slab for preventing differential settlement is a post-tension slab which has been used in use here for about 20 years.

I say go for it and find someone who likes to work with frameless cabs!

I'm not sure what style you're looking for but there's a way to do frameless and have a more traditional look with the use of moldings. Some very high-end cabinets are done this way. Contemporary cabinets, at least high-end Euro ones, don't go all the way to the ceiling. Of course, you can do what ever you thing looks good. I'm in LA. I can give you the name of someone who can answer your questions much better than I can. He builds some of the best cabinets out there and can match any of the super high-end cabinets for half or less of the price.

We went with frameless cabinets because of the look (ours are very traditonal) - I liked how the doors fit closer together than even full overlay. When my GC (who only does very high-end construction) found out that's what we'd chosen he said he liked frameless better but "you've got to know how to work with them". He does. I'm guessing yours doesn't. NOTE: everyone's discussing the doors/ceiling issue...don't forget that the bottom of the cab's are the same way - totally flush. This becomes an issue when/if you're doing a light rail to hide your under cabinet lighting. On frameless the light rail is usually placed back from the front of the cabinet so it doesn't interfere with the door. Not a look everyone likes (including me). There are ways to get around it but it takes some finesse/creativity on the install. Just something you should be aware of.

Obviously these are installed under soffits but the installation principle is the same if they go to the ceiling.

You can see the gap on both sides of the "L" at the top:

This is the nearly finished kitchen - because the doors are flush with the box you don't see the horiontal line of the filler until you open them:

As mentioned you can get a faux inset look with frameless using moulding. This was very inexpensive stock frameless cabinetry so you can achieve a lot more than we did.

Thank you for the pics caryscott. I love the natural color you chose for the walls, just what I had in mind. In my most recent tour of frameless web photos I see that indeed, many show a gap at the top even when they are not in kitchens with high ceilings. We are in a very dusty environment, which will only get worse with inevitable water rationing. The dust will be forming dunes on top of our cabinets if we don't close off gaps with some sort of filler. I feel pretty well informed now for the visit next week with the last, and most highly recommended, contractor. Thanks everyone!