padola,

1. Define 'constructive criticisms of finished kitchens' as stated in your second paragraph and elsewhere.

Constructive, per Webster, inter alia, means 'helpful toward construction'.
'Finished' is a done kitchen, no longer under construction. To the owner of the finished kitchen, it can never be 'constructive', relative to that particular room. It is likely to be hurtful, mean, and other negative things but not constructive. It MAY be instructive to others. Constructive criticism may also give the author a feeling of intelligence. 'CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM' IS, HERE, A CLICHE, A LAME EXCUSE, USED TO JUSTIFY A POORLY THOUGHT OUT AND NASTY REMARK.

You use words as if you understood their meaning. Clearly, you do not, although there is no dearth of words.

Your defense relies on what you claim as constructive and objective. OBJECTIVE? Are you serious? Get your dictionary. Among other things, objective is impersonal, detached, unprejudiced. Unprejudiced.

You are stating opinions, not FACT. It would be condescending for me to explain the difference to you between opinion and fact but words such as pedestrian, ugly and ordinary are opinions, prejudiced words. Just aint facts, honey. No matter how you slice 'em. Neither constructive nor objective.

Pedestrian----Ugly-----Ordinary-----

----"ME: Hey diagonal_lines, congrats on your new kitchen I really love that you matched the floor and backsplash tile. Just curious, why did you install the backsplash on the diagonal, I feel like that sort of draws your eyes away from the natural lines in a kitchen"

But in another post on this thread you said that you would not be critical of a finished kitchen:

" I think I said that making a negative comment on a finished kitchen is a no-no. I would never do that (well, may if I'm asked specifically). Its too late at that point so nothing can be achieved."

So which one is it?

I guess you like being abrasive and contrary. When people give you gifts that you don't like, do you make sure that you help them by letting them know? You seem to be sort of trollish.

I just read the last five posts that came in after my post above.
I dislike the 2 responses made by padola07.
Too many changes of tactics.
So there.
I have decided now. Final answer: padola07 is not making sense.
I like the 3 posts by jsweenc, westsider40, chinchette. They are clear.

"In a perfect world we should be able to engage in full discussion or Q&A about a FK as opposed to the one sided interaction that exists today."

You misunderstand where the real nitty-gritty action happens in this forum. It's not in the finished kitchen 'reveals' -- which, I confess, I rarely read myself -- but in the plethora of working posts that led up to that display. That's where questions are asked and answered. That's where preferences are strongly debated.

"I should be able to post some of my dislikes and have the owner respond back with the reasons for their choices and may be I would learn a thing or two from such a back and forth. Who knows? I may even learn to love that kitchen.""

Yet the finished kitchen threads are not about you (or any reader) at all, nor your personal dislikes. They are about the owner in question. It's an enormous, exhausting task to rehab/design/remodel a kitchen, and the finished kitchen threads are the place to raise a tired but satisfied glass in celebration of its completion.

The real work here lies in all these dozens of seemingly banal threads about cabinets and tile installation and counter depths and hinge types and appliance sizes. That's where questions are asked, scepticisms aired, and new things may be learned. Take an active part in that discourse and you will get all the provocation and inspiration you could ever want from the forum community.

I'm so confused. Why would you want to say to someone, "Your kitchen looks like poop because the lines don't all match up?"

If, having seen that, you really don't understand why people would put diagonal lines in an otherwise rectilinear kitchen, you could post your own question, to the effect of "Diagonal lines in tile work--yes or no?" and ask why people who have done that did so, and weren't they concerned about what you call "natural lines" in their kitchens. Then Ms. diagonal_lines could choose to respond, or other people who responded might refer you to her finished kitchen. And if you ask it as a question, rather than as a criticism of someone else's literally set in stone kitchen, people would be happy to explain it to you.

In fact, I'll tell you the answer: sometimes there are a lot of rigid lines in a kitchen to the point where it can look too regimented and constricted to repeat them. Other times, there are so many curves and "organic" (meaning as occurs in nature) elements that a straight grid would be jarring, whereas, even if there are straight lines present within the diagonal setting, putting it on the angle softens the look.

Those are the "design" reasons. You've learned. If at the end of the explanation and, maybe, some more pictures of what is a very common, ancient, tried and true way of doing things your reaction is still, "that looks kooky to me!" so be it!! Don't do it in your kitchen! It is also true that people have different ideas of beauty, some of which are cultural and some of which are personal. We are programmed by nature to look for symmetry in faces and bodies as a sign of good health, and therefore mating beauty, and some people's idea of what is very beautiful carries that kind of reflective and proportional symmetry to their environments. Other people find reflective, proportional symmetry in architectural design to be unnatural and dehumanizing, because there's really very little of that kind of symmetry in natural scenery, and don't like it for their environs. Neither is wrong. Just different.

Circuspeanut said a finished kitchen reveal isn't about you and your education--so true! You are always welcome to start your own thread, that is about you and what you want to learn, to deal with these issues, rather than calling out someone and saying that her lovingly finished kitchen is ugly.

westsider40,
See my sample exchange if you believe that would be "A CLICHE, A LAME EXCUSE, USED TO JUSTIFY A POORLY THOUGHT OUT AND NASTY REMARK." okay... fine.

chinchette,
That was a hypothetical exchange referring to what could happen in a perfect world. You sort of had to read my previous posts.

circuspeanut,
I understand the process, I am in the process as we speak. Yes we have the back and forth during the renovation phase. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to have a comment after its all been put together.

plllog,
Don't really remember saying anyone's kitchen looks like poop or anything to that effect. I thought the sample exchange I had was pretty civil. A few people like to take anything I say and turn into the worst possible, ill-intentioned statement. I guess that helps your argument.

It just seems like the only nastiness here is coming from the folks who appear to be arguing against such behavior. It also seems like the ones arguing that no takes kitchen comments personal are the only ones taking this whole exchange personal. Anyway...

Seriously I get it. You all win.

I'm sorry. From all the foregoing messages, I thought you understood! The "civil" sample exchange you gave may indeed sound civil to you. To the person sharing her finished kitchen, it sounds like, "Your kitchen looks like poop." Magnify the way you feel when people are challenging just your point of view about what to say in forum posts by months and years of anxiety, disruption, expenditure, and finally joy in the result, and you'll understand how someone challenging her design choices would make a person who is sharing her finished kitchen feel.

I'm not trying to be nasty, but to explain the way we communicate here because I do get that that's what you were trying to learn in this post. Awhile back in another forum there was a group of guys who liked to butt heads over various minutiae of what they were discussing. I would just go away when they got into it because it was unpleasant. But it started to spill over and the ladies were being frightened away by the "Gotcha!! You idiot!!" attitude being slung at them by the contenders. I think they honestly didn't realize that their tone was coming off like that. Similarly, I think you really didn't realize that the tone of your wanting to discuss what's "ugly" or in need of critique in someone's kitchen sounds on the receiving end like, "Your kitchen looks like poop." You obviously knew that things weren't as you proposed here because you did ask. And I think you do get that the answer is don't do it. I was hoping to help you to understand why.

I'm not taking this exchange personally, just being honest about how I feel. There are times when it is appropriate to say what you think, and other times when its appropriate to edit what you think. Most people want to edit when it comes to someone's completed masterpiece. Other people like to say what they like and then say what they don't like. That would be more for a design class where the whole premise of being there is you are a design student learning to improve for the next time. We only get one shot at our kitchen so there is no point in a negative comment. That would be more appropriate on a TV show like Kitchen Nightmares with Chef Ramsey. Or American Idol where Simon likes to cut the artist down but they know going in thats the deal.

I can see now in scanning other threads you are on that you are not a troll and are here for kitchen tips, but that you have a different point of view about criticism than most. You can be critical of a completed work of art here- but I think that you have in this thread a sort of survey result on how others will take that, and if its something considered valuable or not.

I think the only way to constructively criticize a finished kitchen as part of a learning process would be to post a kitchen from a design magazine, try to ascertain that wasn't recently finished by a GWer :) -- and then have a discussion of what works and what doesn't: because we've all seen published kitchens that are touted as awesome, while there are are definitely some shortcomings. (Usually functional --ie the stove surrouned by the mantle and no set down space. Sometimes decor/design--impractical materials or features:ie Candice Olson's solid surface countertop$$ with a cheap wastebasket mounted through a hole in the countertop, things that need to be accessed with a ladder, a portable dishwasher tucked under the island--she's had a few).

This question seems to come up periodically here. And it always turns into a hot topic.

The thing is, I'm not sure there IS such a thing as "constructive criticism" after the fact. It's just too late for criticism of any kind. You certainly don't want the kicthen owner to suddenly think s/he made the wrong choices at this point, do you?

I mean, even in the case of the diagonal backsplash example you gave, what if it makes that person stand back and say, OH NO! padola07 is right! It DOES draw your eyes away from the natural lines!

Then what?

Yeah, I'm guessing some people do gush unnecessarily about some things they might not really love when it comes to finished kitchens. I honestly don't see any harm in that.

You said:
I think I said that making a negative comment on a finished kitchen is a no-no

and then

All I was trying to do was find out why there are almost no constructive criticisms of finished kitchens

As has been said multiple times above, criticism of a finished kitchen is not contructive and therefore negative. So, there's your answer.

When you do post your finished kitchen, you can just ask people not to say anything nice unless they really mean it and to be sure to let you know what they don't like about it if that's what you're seeking. That's your perogative.

It's probably not what most people who post their kitchens here want though.

I had the reverse problem. Every time I saw a beautiful kitchen - such as katiebob's - I really disliked mine. I do think there are so many nice kitchens on this site. When a kitchens is not to my taste, I still think I learn something - whether its placement of a cabinet or otherwise. This site has been a wonderful place and there's so much support out there and so many good people.

God bless!

I'm certainly NOT taking sides on this one, however....I can sort of see the OP's point about the insincere gushing that goes on around here. OTOH I know I for one would be terribly hurt if someone started questioning my choices of my finished project no matter how nicely put. And just to add my personal opinion, I do think that some of the insincere compliments are a bit transparent. Hopefully to the revealer it doesn't come across that way. To me it is obvious when the masses really are wowed by a k;tchen. The language and tone of those posts are just different. Then again maybe I just read too much between the lines!

It's funny...this thread has turned into exactly what the OP wants to turn finished kitchens into. They have suggested that the polite ways change, that we now point out any issues that are not to our taste in such a way as to insult the poster (Ie the line ruins the look) and what's happened....the OP's feelings are hurt. Perhaps you (OP) could take that as an example of how it feels when someone tells you that your backsplash is ruining your kitchen??? The way you worded that example was a hurtful way to ask the question. Honesty to the point of hurt is not necessary...I don't care if it's in fashion or not.

I have recently posted my finished kitchen. I absolutely KNOW it's not to many people's taste (and I'm ok with that) :OP I know that if it's not to their taste they have no taste (ok kidding LOL)...so go for it. Honestly OP take a look and tell me what you don't like...practice your theory. I have a very thick skin and absolutely no worries that my kitchen isn't fabulous so use me as an example please??? Let's see how you plan on doing this politely in such a way that it wouldn't cause hurt to the adverage Joe? I know in my kitchen there's lots to hate :) And honestly I mean that...it's very eclectic. If you don't like seals it's not for you....go for it. Show us how you propose to do this and still be polite...

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0314541023191.html?108

OK I posted that link wrong...my cut and paste is on the fritz. Try this one:

igloochic,
I think its pretty obvious that my utopian ideas are not welcome here and like I said I am happy to fall inline.

Trust me I am definitely not hurt by this exchange. Do I agree with everyone 100%? No. but when it becomes one against 100 and you are relatively new, you sort of know its time to stop arguing and fall in line. I still read compliments on finished kitchens that I find contrived, just read a few today, but hey it is what it is.

I do appreciate your offer to allow me to critic your kitchen however I am really not the sadist that I come across as so i'll have to decline. If you found my example with the backsplash hurtful then trust me I don't want to inadvertently ruin your day by taking up your challenge.

So congratulations on finally finishing its seems like you know what you wanted and went to great lengths to make it happen. I hope you wake up every morning and gaze lustfully on your beautiful kitchen.

LOL Padola, I was not hurt by your backsplash comment, nor would I be because I have confidence in the quality of my design...I said it could be hurtful, not to me, but it could be to someone else.

I was trying to offer you the real life ability to show what you are trying to say in a kitchen that obviously has something not to love somewhere in it :) Probably lots of somethings. A real life example verses something made up so we could understand your point of view. Apparently that's not what you were attempting to do with this thread I would have to guess...I get more the feeling you just wanted to stir up trouble unfortunately. That's too bad.

I don't wake up and gaze at that kitchen. I don't live there full time. My other kitchen is a back porch :oP And even as such....It's akward, but ugly??? No not really.

Padola,

for heaven's sake, this is a free public internet forum, not the Gulag Archipelago. We're all sovereign adults here and we are each free to post or not post whatever the heck we want to. Nobody is under any compulsion or obligation.

You can make whatever kind of comments you wish on folks' finished kitchen reveals, and you'll get the response you get. *shrug*

But you asked for opinions specifically on this thread, and many participants have answered you. I don't know why you want to couch this in combative terms of "winning" or "falling into step", but that's your issue. Take what you need, leave the rest.

lordy what a long thread. Two thoughts immediately spring to mind:

1. (something my mother use to say) "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." That could well apply here. You don't have to outright say, "I hate that kitchen" for someone to get the point that not everyone in the world loves it.

2. More directly to the OP's latest comment about a "utopian idea". This isn't utopia. People aren't designing their kitchens to please an entire population -- they design it for THEMSELVES! There is no way everyone is going to like my kitchen design -- I don't expect them to - and don't care if they do. It's for me and my family.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being nice and either saying nothing, or pointing out the things you do like.

There is such a thing as a social filter -- there's no need to be outright rude to people. Basically, its called manners. If you point out that you really hate someone's backsplash what do you expect the effect to be? 400 other people won't get the same backsplash because of your opinion? That the backsplash owner will rip it out and spend thousands to redo it to suit a utopian ideal?

There really isn't a utopian ideal. If there were, we'd all be living in it and all have the same kitchen.

I've never seen a truly ugly finished kitchen here .

I think its pretty obvious that my utopian ideas are not welcome here

I'm pretty dense maybe but I don't get what's utopian about hurting someone's feelings. Whether it's intentional or not. Asking someone why they did something a certain way since you feel it doesn't work is (very) potentialy hurtful.

There's a huge difference between someone posting that they are THINKING of doing something a certain way and getting a "I don't think that will work" response and someone who posts that they HAVE done something a certain way and getting a "I don't think that works" response.

Hurtful is hurtful, intended or not. If you KNOW that saying a certain thing has a very good chance of hurting someone, why do it? What, exactly, is utopian about that?

And I just have to comment that your response to all of this seems to be: I know I'm right but since 100 of you are insisting I'm wrong, I'll go ahead and do it your way.

You know, sometimes, when 100 people say one thing and one person says the other, there's just that tiniest possibility that the one person just might be in the wrong.

What?!?!?!? First of all. Half the things people say I say I never said. Half the things people say I'm asking for I actually explicitly stated I wasn't asking for. But its just easier to make an argument against someone who's asking for people to just rudely rip other people's kitchens instead of understanding my actual argument.

So let me just respond to cindyandmocha this person is just off the reservation.

1) I never recommended telling people "i hate your kitchen". All I asked for was is there room for a polite socially filtered but complete discussion on a kitchen? I get it, the answer is no because the finished kitchen is not about me and its not my kitchen and the person posting it isn't looking for a discussion her kitchen. Fine.

2) Once again, I am totally against rudeness.. i've said that 1000 times but its a lot easier to paint me as proposing rudeness cos makes your argument easier. Certainly having someone rip out their backsplash isn't a utopian ideal, I don't know where you get that from. I mean why would anyone rip out their backsplash because some userid on GW asked about the lines in the kitchen?

When I said "utopian ideal" I have talking about being able to discuss a kitchen civily and politely in its entirety without hurting anyone's feelings. Its utopian because I am being told its not possible. We're all human, people will get their feelings hurt.

I don't know where I said I really hated anyone's backsplash, I asked a question about lines because I didn't think they were lining up and the owner of the kitchen clarified that its not supposed. Someone that has been turned into a hurt comment and me really hating someone backplash. Umm... okay? When I said we all have fragile kitchen egos everyone disputed it. You can decide for yourself if we're not highly sensitive to finished kitchen comments after looking at all the over-reactions to my backsplash question.

I've gotten all I need from this thread but if you're going to post a reply please please please stick to what I actually said instead of making stuff up just to make you sound like you're the super hero fighting an evil villain. Lets leave that to the movies.

Yes, how ridiculous this is. You have the choice, as you do in life, to be kind or be unkind. you are more than welcome to be *honest* and say what you want to say, but just so you know... most people don't like mean people, so you may feel or receive some lashback.

when your child comes home from school with a picture they colored in for you, do you say "well, you did color outside the line here, I would have tried to stay inside the lines". hopefully, you don't, you say "I love it, honey, you did a great job".

bottom line, it's your choice.

When I said "utopian ideal" I have talking about being able to discuss a kitchen civily and politely in its entirety without hurting anyone's feelings. Its utopian because I am being told its not possible.

I get it now! You answered my question. Utopian, for you, means a world where you can say potentially hurtful things without someone getting their feelings hurt. Polite or civil does not imply that it's not hurtful so I'm still going to stand by what I said, Asking someone why they did something a certain way since you feel it doesn't work is (very) potentialy hurtful.

I understand your meaning of utopian although I disagree with it. In a utopian situation, we'd all love each other's kitchens. I don't see no hurt feelings as utopian, I see it as not human. Again, only my opinion.

So according to momof3kids_pa when it comes to finished kitchen we all have the mental fortitude of a 5 year old. I actually made a similar case and was shut down.

And no I wouldn't treat a 5 year old like that. I am not that person. I also know now not to say anything about anyone's backsplash, I need the help of this forum to finish my kitchen. Lets just say, I haven't been making a lot of friends lately with this thread so thats not exactly good for me when I have a "Urgent: Quartz Installer Here. Help!". In that case my kitchen is on the line the last thing i care about, if i can be honest, is commenting on anyone's backsplash.

So trust me I am choosing kindness over whatever I was asking for.

Cool. You'll probably get into it.

padola07
I'm not taking sides, but I would suggest that if you really want help with Your kitchen, you should change your user name.

kitchiekando,
Yeah you might be onto something. Thanks for the tip.

padola07- Have to agree with kitchiekando. You really did come out with guns blazing. May not have been ill-intentioned, but you may have hurt your chances of getting unbiased help on this forum.

I think this whole thread has gotten totally out of hand. Granted, Padola is a semi-newbie who might have done herself a favor by lurking longer to discern the culture of the GW KF before starting this thread. If she had, she probably would have phrased her question differently or just kept her observations to herself. But, she didn't. Instead she committed an error of GW netiquette. Then, she compounded that error by repeatedly attempting to explain her motives for starting the thread in the first place. And, then she stepped into even deeper doo doo by attempting to defend against criticisms of thoughts and actions that she never held nor committed. As a result, the tone of her defenses have been just that. . . defensive. However, she has also repeatedly apologized for her mistake and has even tried to withdraw her initial position. So,my question now would be - when is enough enough? Are there really any more points that need to be made to Padola that we "don't do that ugly kitchen" thing here? I think not!

My thinking is that the precise reasons why we all love this forum so much is because here we've got a priceless mix of wisdom, experience, creativity, compassion and civility in an electronic public square! There's probably dozens more positive adjectives I could use to describe us, but you all know what I'm getting at: the friendly, caring and sharing culture of the KF is just not the internet norm. At the same time, I'm sure many of us have seen a newbie or two who arrives here with the expectation that the cultural norm will be one of snarkiness, hostility and intolerance, trollery, spammery, and the like. And, when some snark addicts make the mistake of acting on those wrong assumptions, they are quickly advised that such behavior is not welcome here. Usually what happens next is that those characters take their parting shots and then hit the road, never to be seen again.

But I'm sensing something different is going on in this thread. Again, I think Padola made an honest mistake and has been sufficiently scolded for it. However, she has also offered up explanations and apologies which, IMHO, are sincere. Further, she has stated her desire to continue to be a contributing (and receiving) member here. What more must she do to be accepted back into the fold? Or, are we saying that there is nothing she can now do to right the wrong other than to change her handle so as to hide her identity? I hope not!

My bet is that we're all bigger than that. Padola's "transgression" was a mistake not a crime. Can't we just let bygones be bygones and move on?

1. I have long believed that there is no such thing as an inherently ugly/physically unattractive person---only ugly behavior or beliefs that eventually write themselves on us. Maybe I was influenced too deeply by having to read the Picture of Dorian Gray while still in middle school. Nevertheless, I feel the same way about kitchens. No kitchen is ugly if it results from the process in which the the owner/designer/home owner fashions something that they hope will enhance their lives either functionally or aesthetically. In fact, the only truly ugly kitchens I have ever seen are standard builders kitchens that have been thrown together with the cheapest possible materials and no thought about function.

2. Igloochic, when I saw the first picture of your kitchen I thought it looked a bit squirrelly, but then I scrolled down and decided it was just ducky.

Igloochics kitchen...funny, I thought it was rather loon-y myself.
:-)

Very funny, cj47 and flseadog!

marthavila, I am certain that there are many people following this thread who are ready to let this go and would be more than willing, happy even, to jump in and help padola recover. I am one of those. There are also probably many who are on her "side" in the sense that they'd like it for her sake if this would just go away quietly and let it go.

In fact, it seems everyone was in tacit agreement to do so a couple of days ago. For almost 24 hours there was no response to this thread; it moved all the way to page 3. I was watching it. I was one of those pulling for padola, hoping to let this fade away and be forgotten.

When it was revived it was by padola herself. That seemed to fan the flame again.

padola, if you are still reading this, I urge you not to change your user id. If you do, you will never know whether people here are truly caring and compassionate and don't just say nice things to flatter but are truly willing to work with everyone and let past issues go.

I haven't been around any time myself, but I've read enough threads (only a fraction of all those out there) to know that even the most full-blown controversies pass on and there remain no hard feelings unless one who has been combatant continues to be so on other threads.

I also urge you, padola, not to respond to this thread any more if you are still reading. The most merciful thing to do in this case is to bump this to 150 in the middle of the night and let it fall off.

But if you are still reading, here's another hypothetical conversation for consideration.

*controversial topic ensues
*no one responds for a while, the thread falls away
*the one who got things going starts a new thread: "I'm sorry I started a thread that generated a great deal of controversy. I didn't foresee the can of worms I would be opening, and I am truly sorry for offending." (or, "I wondered how it would go over when I hit 'submit' and I truly regret my experiment.") It's really OK not to try to explain, defend, justify, or prove your point.
*the conflict is now defused. Many of those who responded and further defined the battle lines are ready to make amends.

What I am hearing is that those who really like this kind of conflict and continue to stir things up are welcome to go somewhere where that is part of the culture. Those who don't and make the mistake of doing so without meaning to will find there is still a place for them here.

Let us kill this thread for you, padola, and let it die down, and then come back with the same name and ask for some help. You'll see how sincere and kind people are here; not for the sake of appearing nice to gain reputation or personal benefit but because they truly care.

ps I meant to say just bump it without comment, and quickly.

LOL I think my kitchen is quite bullish...and sometimes even bearish :oP

Padola I was just offering you an opportunity to put your money where your mouth was. I'm sorry you didn't take that opportunity to provide an example of your meaning to someone who has a definate ability to laugh at her kitchen and anyone's reactions to it :)

I would actually suggest you change your user name. Your introduction was more troll like that you apparently want to be. I wish you great success with your kitchen.

I hope I didn't sound offensive in my last post- but I do think you should change your username, so everyone can offer you some help- even those who might not have otherwise if you didn't. I think letting the thread die would be a good idea too.

Padola, please don't change your name.

It's hard to argue that GW is a warm, welcoming, helpful, supportive family, but ONLY if and to members who don't put their foot in their mouths according to the culture.

In my family we can have a pretty big blow out (thankfully, not often)with crying and yelling and doors slamming, but in the end everyone's eager to kiss and make up.

Padola, I hope you'll give members a chance to prove we're bigger than carrying a grudge against you, and let's all just agree to disagree, let bygones be bygones, and every other cliche out there. :)

>ME: Hey diagonal_lines, congrats on your new kitchen I really love that you matched the floor and backsplash tile. Just curious, why did you install the backsplash on the diagonal, I feel like that sort of draws your eyes away from the natural lines in a kitchen"

Ooooh, I've met women who say things like that all the time. Stereotypical mother-in-law from @#$# behavior, though fortunately mine doesn't do it.

Never before who didn't secretly mean to be nasty about it, though.

Yes this thread was dead for a few days until igloochic challenged me to critic her kitchen. I thought it was only polite to respond that I would be declining her offer. I mean I've been called rude before.

So based on that jsweenc says that I revived the thread... I guess responding to a challenge could count as reviving a thread. Anyway, there's really nothing to add to this conversation now. Everything's been said and said again. However if I get falsely accused of anything I will definitely be defending myself. If someone raises a question or makes an interesting point, I will respond if I have something new to say.

I think my position is clear at this point, if you don't like me I can't make it any worse, so whether this stays in the first or last page everyone's mind is already made up.

I'm really ready to move on to asking questions about chipping in quartz or whether to center my pendants on the island or the island plus overhang.

I am probably reviving the thread again ...hey whatcha gonna do?

padola, you were right and I was wrong. I'm sorry. I didn't look back far enough to see the previous 24 hrs that this went without a response. That must have occurred during my busiest time of the week. I can see how you would have felt the need to respond to igloochic's challenge. I believe her, that she can take it and wouldn't have been offended, but I will also say that I haven't seen anywhere that you implied or outright stated that you were looking for permission to be critical yourself. So the challenge was off base.

What I have seen you imply (please do correct me if I am wrong again) is that you think, to some degree, both that there is insincerity on this forum and that posting finished k;tchens is about sensitive, needy people looking to have their egos fluffed. The problem with that is that unless you know the persons in question, you can't assume those motives. And if those are the motives, is there some good in exposing that? And if they aren't, you open an unnecessary controversy (though, as someone pointed out, it's a perennial one) and get a good number of people explaining, in a variety of ways (gently, firmly, sarcastically, defensively, angrily) why that's a wrong assumption.

Your second post explaining what made you ask in the first place made it a valid question, if you had only continued in the effort to turn it in that direction as well as owned up to a mistake in titling your post. I think you would have found a great deal of grace from the start.

And I still say you will be able to find a fresh start if you truly didn't mean to offend and will back up from your fighting position, take a deep breath, and not hit submit until you've read through your posts and titles. If you are not one who just likes to be blunt on principle whether there's cause or not then you'll find a willingness to work with you. That's what this forum is here for, so go ahead and submit your questions.

jsweenc,
No problem. To respond to your questions and comments

- Yes you're right I am not looking for permission to critic anyone's kitchen, I actually haven't found a kitchen that I want to say something that would be considered negative about. Its not inconceivable that I would find something someday and obviously i'm not going to say anything.

- "Insincerity" has a negative connotation however yes I did say that some of the FK comments sounded a little exaggerated or as I put it "faux". Just my opinion, obviously I don't have hard evidence. I mean an exaggerated compliment isn't the worst thing anyone can do to you.

- I want to be clear on this one. I really do not think people posting kitchens are doing so because they have fragile egos. I would never imply something like that especially since I stated up front I will be posting mine. I do however believe that most of us have fragile kitchen egos whether we post pictures or not. When you've spent the time we do fussing over every little detail of a room, you're going to be a little sensitive. I have since realized that people are way more sensitive about FKs than I initially thought and this is not a bad thing, we are only human.

The result of that is that any remotely critical comment whatever the intention is is considered a personal attack. If you don't believe me look at the tone of the comments about the sample exchange I presented and I wasn't even talking about anyone's actual kitchen. My intentions in that hypothetical couldn't be more pure and innocent. Its been called hurtful, hateful and something a jealous in-law would say. So the point here is I really don't have any problem with people that post FK pictures, those are my favorite posts.

- Ok I haven't addressed this issue yet but you mention the title of my post. I mean no one really believes anything I say anymore but I swear to you that was mostly tongue and cheek. There isn't a smiley face yes but I didn't mean that literally. Look at my OP again I never even referred to an ugly kitchen and you might also see I was probably not that serious. All I was trying to say was that I see lots of compliments on FKs, some over the top, does that really represent everything everyone feels about every kitchen or are there feelings that aren't aired.

So I have realized that there's really not much humor when it comes to FKs. If I knew that I wouldn't have posted this in the first place.

- I am not going to back down but I'm also not dumb. I'm totally fine with the culture here and I will comply but it doesn't mean that I can't see how things could be done differently without any mean spiritedness whatsoever although everyone disagrees. If thats still a "fighting position" then it has to be a very non-threatening, diplomatic and weak fighting position.

padola,

I'm usually good at picking up on tongue in cheek humor but sometimes I can be pretty obtuse. So I looked back at it from that angle and I have to say, though I could hear the lightness in your tone now that you say it, I still don't see how most people would be expected to see the joke in it. However, I believe you when you say that's what you intended.

There is still plenty of room for appropriate humor and opinion in many other places on the forum and I do trust, as you say, that it will be injected in the right places. I find people here to be refreshingly honest and even blunt (rarely in a rude way) when necessary, when asked for input on the planning process for someone's k;tchen. Sometimes those opinions are unsolicited, but usually they are sought.

And I rarely see anyone who asks for input get defensive and outright refuse to consider a suggestion without good reason (e.g. walls are set, can't be moved). Sensitive, maybe; unreasonably so, generally not, especially during the process.

I have seen plenty of FK posts where the person will list what s/he would have done differently and why. That's a different story.

When I said "back down", I didn't mean you had to change your opinion, just asking you to consider your tone. What I am hearing in it is that you feel it is you against the forum, and I was trying to point out that that doesn't have to be the case, that others here will be glad to help you, but if you are coming in with a sense of "I know you all don't like me, but...", it will come out in your future posts.

JS I'm sorry YOU saw my "challenge" as offbase, but that's your opinion and not a fact of life. I learned many years ago that sometimes people aren't able to say what they mean well in writing. I offered up my kitchen because I thought perhaps this person may have come off wrong from the titling of the post on down. I offered up my kitchen because frankly I don't care what others think :) I made my kitchen for me and have no insecurities about it. I used unconventional materials in unconventional ways. It's a great kitchen to find fault with, to see unconventional uses and question them...and to love, which I do heh heh

So really, I was trying to give the poster a chance to show us what she was trying to say, and not apprently saying well.

A fake example does not really work...and not many want a real one if it's going to be done in an uncomfortable way...so say what you want to say, show what you meant, and use a kitchen that obviously will have options for you to discuss...do it in such a way that exhibits what you made the freaking post about in the first place and maybe people will understand what the original post was all about and understand. I don't think it was "off base" at all. I was just giving an opportunity to make her point. She could have done that and change the minds of everyone who felt she was being purposfully rude...that's all I was suggesting.

I usually only click on a finished kitchen thread once.
That will be after it has 50 or 100 responses.
Many of the FK comments sounding like gushing.
Long ago I stopped expecting anything other.
Reminds me of a few Toastmasters clubs I have seen, where only one member can evaluate adroitly so as to help the person being evaluated see things as they really are; the other members gush in order to remain positive and try to encourage change, but without showing what could be changed.
However, a Finished thing is over and done with.
It's not a work in progress.
It's not something you can practice to change or improve.
It's over.
So, it's fine that it's positive, without mentioning the (possible) things that could be changed in a parallel universe.

.. make sense now?

davrido1
May this thread RIP.

igloochic
1ST time i have seen ur kitchen, all i can say is," How Cool Is That!!" I love It!! You r an artist, unfortunately, I am Baroque with no Monet, so cant ask for ur advise!! But I luv every detail!!

RIP indeed.

"green counters (Corian) and plain vinyl floors. The decor will be for the birds (flamingos) with a cheezy retro diner look. I'm sure people are cringing already"

I'm not! it sounds great to me - and personal to you. which is great and as it should be! can't wait to see it. can we see the critters in advance? thx for the mural link!

"Wether your k*itchen is white or not you still eventually have to clean the spaghettisauce"

yep. eventually. it won't show like it would on white. won't stain like it would on white. won't need cleaned as often as white. lol! maybe red walls would help...

"If you ever want a way to kill the conversation this is it, by the way. We both think it's a hoot."

I like that line... will have to think up one for me... like 'I just love an 80's k*itchen' - lol! or maybe mine'll look like one from the 70's. or a mixture...

asking a question about someone's k*itchen is different that saying it's ugly. I've asked lots of questions, as have others.

Please let this thread die of its natural graceful well deserved death.

Reviving

Its a valid discussion.