"... Nor are statements helpful that if an OP cannot 100% fix a dis-functional layout, they should not bother."

They could be getting good advise. It may be better for them to not do anything and move. Each case is different.

"People who do not have good spatial visualization should not be designing houses or kitchens."

That has never stopped anyone here despite many glaring examples. There are no "knows" and "don't knows" here except self-declared "don't knows." Anyone can have an opinion whether it makes sense to a professional or not. That's the friction point some of the time.

However, let's not forget that designers have staffs in their offices and design projects are most often done by a group. So I'm with pal. I'll suggest and if someone doesn't get that,it's ok. But it's stupifying when you do sketch out something and there is no response or a dismissive thank you. I'm like hello??? The lack of questions about someone's reasoning for a recommendation is a lost opportunity to see another point of view.

I've received a tremendous amount of help from posters -- most especially last fall when I had an awful built in refrigerator replacement. I got suggestions I didn't need, and some that were wrong, but I got great perspective over all which helped me work a very difficult and expensive project through to an extremely successful conclusion.

What's the point in putting 10K into brand new exotic counters on top of a 1979 layout with the cooktop 2'' from the oven? It IS better to do nothing than to waste money on a remuddle lke that. Especially if it's someone looking to do that for ''resale'' appeal. Gah!

Take that 10K and 3 yers of saving his friends and do something that will make an actual difference in your experience in the kitchen. Looking at pretty stone while you set the house on fire is just not smart.

We all know the adage about opinions and orifices....and clocks that are right at least twice a day. There isn't a lot of quality control over the responses.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of posters who post ''questions'' asking for opinions, but really are just seeking congratulations for their ''brilliant'' already made decisions, and ego stroking rather than the truth. I find it amusing when they go through and only thank those who compliment them or agree with them! One poster went so far as to attempt to completely ignore the manufacturere's written instructions for the product that were posted, insisting that it was the contractor's fault for doing it the way that was shown!

I don't think very many people have good spatial visualization, and I think this is something that we are actually losing as a culture, and maybe as humans. At one time people had to imagine things from verbal or written descriptions. Then people had to determine what something looked like from illustrations, such as those in the Sears catalogue. Then people had to chose from something photographed: a drawing--no matter how realistic the rendering-- would no longer do. Now people need to see it in actual virtual form or in real life before they can understand it. I've had clients select something from a clear photograph and then say it looked nothing like they thought it would look. I've had more than one client who did not recognize their own furniture from a photograph.

On top of this, houses are no longer designed as cohesive objects with an actual defined shape. Even architects are taking each room as a separate box and cobbling them together in intersecting masses of shapes. And when the geometry of a fully rectangular city lot is imposed on the architect, they no longer seem to be able to fit all the utilities needed without creating bumps and chases and soffits everywhere, when they used to be able to work within the context of an actual rectangle enough to hide such things in the design. When even architects can't do it, how can someone without spacial visualization who has a lay-person's design software at their disposal be expected to do it. --Especially when we seem to be losing the ability to understand something unless we see an actual full sized example of it.

First, I'll admit I haven't read all of the posts. Nevertheless, I want to take this opportunity to thank all who helped me with my kitchen layout in my old house. It took me a while, but I finally found the original thread for the planning of my kitchen. If it had not been for GW'ers, my dishwasher would have been in a silly place. The solution to the dishwasher dilemma in hindsight was easy, but I never saw it. It just took installing a smaller (but still quite sufficiently large) sink. My storage wall, which was visible from the front door, wouldn't have looked so good or functioned so well.

I do not recall anyone being rude or cruel. I only remember lots of wonderful helpful people who seemed to be listening to me more carefully than the people I had hired to help plan my kitchen. They helped me focus and move forward to a wonderfully functional kitchen.

When we finally sold the house 6 years later, we sold it to a friend because she loved my kitchen.

To those of you who so generously helped me, thank you from the bottom of my heart!

bb, what a great post. :)

bbstx - After reading your post, I'm intrigued. I would like to see your kitchen layout thread but can't find it. Would you mind posting the link?

@palimpsest - They couldn't recognize their own furniture in a photograph? You're serious? How is that possible? Can these people read a map? Or are they entirely dependent on spoken GPS? I'm boggled.

HERE is the first thread. Unfortunately, the photos no longer show up so it is hard to follow the evolution of the kitchen. There were many more on various topics.

This is where we started. Notice the dishwasher in the closet! The black corner in the lower right portion of the picture is the peninsula that was ripped out.

This was the nearly finished final product. The microwave was waiting for its shelf to be built in the closet. And the outlets still needed face plates.

bbstx- Wow! what a transformation. Beautiful, calm - just love white kitchens.

Posts like yours are giving me (and hopefully others) the needed courage to start our own kitchen layout threads. Thanks so much for posting the pics.

Thanks, pippa. DO IT! Its a wild ride but the end result is so worth it.

Pippa,

Do it. The worst that you get is opinions from different people to help you see how your kitchen will be viewed by visitors. You're so close to the project that you no longer see your kitchen as it actually is.

The feedback you get will clear the remodel fatigue.

Hopefully you will get a lot of response if it needs work. If you only get a few responses, then look at it as you've done a good job with functionality and there isn't much to fix.

Rejoice if you get things ripped apart. Creativity requires destruction.

I go off and sulk when I don't get the feedback for which I'm looking. However... those comments pointing out things I don't necessarily want to hear? Those are often the best ones and I come back to them and re-examine them over time. It's immensely satisfying to 'get something right' and then to live with the results; a big part of this is the satisfaction which comes from successful problem solving.

Frankly, I think it's courageous of people to approach their kitchen design with open eyes and minds, willing to let others dissect it, sometimes kindly, sometimes bluntly. It's not for the faint of heart.

But when people are willing to lay their kitchen soul bare, the end result is ever so much better than what they might have ended up with otherwise. Even if they stick with what they originally planned or something very close to it, they do so knowing that they considered *all* possible options. And they couldn't have gotten there without GW input.

I posted my layout recently and hope to see more comments as the layout is revised. We did a large addition last year with a new master bath and the people on GW were instrumental in helping me choose materials and finishes. (I still owe it to them to post finished pictures.) I'm pretty sure I received some tough love in the process, especially regarding my linear drain. Thank goodness for GWers!!

for kitchens there are many more details to consider, things to be missed that probably could be prevented thru the good advice here. I agree with Lisa, even if you stick with your original plan, at least you will see a lot of options that your KD may not have presented.

Most posters here on GW have different expectations than a lot of people who walk in the door of a design or cabinet center, who have no idea of what they want, like, need, or should consider. They are spoon fed something that will fit the space and they run with it just to get it accomplished. If you are posting here, you are really wanting advice so you can make better, informed decisions. I think most people here really want to help and offer their opinions, experience, or first hand knowledge of a product.

I can't stand to watch any more HGTV shows with "flipped" or renovated houses where a kitchen or house is slammed in place in a few weeks (or days) with obviously little planning as to how a person will really use it. One recent show even had the home owner asking the host (the star) couldn't he put some shelving or something in her shower to hold the shampoo? He says of course......I said good luck with that, it's already tiled. Sure enough, in the final scene they show the gorgeous bathroom.....but she has no place for her shampoo (not that they mention it again). Maybe these people get some kind of discount on the renovation to let HGTV in their door, but I don't think they end up with the function they can by using the advice here.

Hopefully I give helpful advice here when I can and sound grateful when I receive back. Often in writing, it sounds differently than it would in person.

funkycamper, yes, they didn't recognize their own furniture.

I was helping one client work with existing furniture and sent her a series of emails with pictures, including a picture of her own sofa so she could see in photos at least how the pictures of the new furniture worked with her existing furniture.

She emailed me back and said "Why are you also sending pictures of new sofas? I am not interested in buying a new sofa. I like the one I have, in fact I like it much better than the sofa you sent. I don't like the one you sent a picture of"

I sent an email back that said "But that is your sofa".

I sent another client pictures of some vintage furniture she had just bought, and she emailed me back saying "I really don't like the scheme you have with that rug and wall color with that furniture in the picture, I just don't get it.

I sent an email back that said. "That is the furniture you bought on the day we bought it. That isn't a scheme. That is the blacktop of the parking lot and the vinyl siding of the antique store. Remember? You were there."

omg, pal, that's crazy! And really, rather sad.

In the second client's defense I suppose the blacktop could have looked like a very dark grey carpet in Photoshop or Microsoft Paint, but it really didn't look like any sort of rendering, and I never did any rendering for the client except hand drawing, so, I dunno...

Well I just got another $1500 bill from the plumber for the time he spent doing research and answering the inspector on the last of the kitchen plumbing. Half was installation of additional drain for 2nd washer/dryer and the other was all inspection related.

Considering that my $35k kitchen repair has cost double so far and fast approaching $100k for no good reason, I want all the constructive criticism I can get to make sure that every remaining penny will be spent on a functional kitchen. At this point, I couldn't care less about looks.

Kitchen projects are expensive and criticism of your design is worth any tears, hurt ego or self image. You're getting invaluable feedback and advice for free and ensuring that your money will be spent on the important things.

It will hurt a lot worse to spend money and end up with something you regret after so much stress and frustration of construction.

I'm typing this as we're sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on a 1 1/2 hrs trip to pick up grout from the distributor because the store delivery was late and we need it now.

How awful, beachem! I'm so sorry to hear of your remodeling headaches. I sure hope the rest of it goes more smoothly. You're due for some good fortune for a change.

Pal, I think you have posted about that client before but the point is so important. With the whole world being more accessible, more than ever we walk around with blinders on, only seeing things from one angle. It still startles me for a moment when I sit in a different seat at our dining table or in a different spot in the living room. We get so stuck in a rut. I suppose that is what happens when planning our kitchens. We see it only one way.

Kitchen projects are expensive and criticism of your design is worth any tears, hurt ego or self image. You're getting invaluable feedback and advice for free and ensuring that your money will be spent on the important things.

It will hurt a lot worse to spend money and end up with something you regret after so much stress and frustration of construction.

Beachem, sorry you are going through this but you speak words of wisdom.

Sophie you are quite blunt, but in this case you are 100 correct.

We should remember that posters come here, as well, with different levels of expertise in kitchen planning or time spent lurking. Folks with a lot of experience with the threads here expect them to go a certain way that a newbie might not immediately understand.

My first layout post was irritating to the designers here. I was visualizing my changes in 3d through the IKEA kitchen planner, and it was much harder to for me to understand what was happening in sketches. I was asking for verbal feedback on my own pics, other people wanted the dimensions to get down and dirty with their own picture ideas. Took a while for me to understand why other people were getting frustrated with me.

Ultimately, we went with a variation on my own ideas. Largely, so it could stay a mostly DIY project. A) to keep costs down B) to keep it under our control

We made changes that fixed most of the worst parts of our current layout. The new one isn't perfect but it will be a much more usable and attractive kitchen. And we'll have left some blood, sweat and tears in it ... and therefore pride in ownership.

The layout gurus were very good at heading off some of my impractical notions, and even though I didn't wind up going for their ideas that required more extensive reno, I completely appreciate the time spent. And I think the ideas informed my own thinking ... Part of me probably did just want backslaps, but it was definitely for the best I didn't get that!

I just found GW/Houzz this year and at first was completely overwhelmed. There is such a wealth of information here, it's hard to know where to begin. I was completely unaware that there are people on here with professional backgrounds in kitchen design until after I first posted for advice (I really had no idea!) And when asking for advice, even with the guidelines and recommendations (particularly with kitchens), it is easy to forget details and information that would be helpful.

I guess my hope is that more experienced posters and advisors on here would continue to be patient. I know it can probably be completely aggravating when someone is new, but keep in mind that we all start somewhere and may not realize our ideas or suggestions completely suck! For me, I'm starting with a truly awful kitchen layout, so I've been living with dysfunction and didn't even know it, and frankly, it's a kitchen and I still can cook and prepare my dinner and I didn't die doing it. Do I absolutely NEED a new kitchen? No, I don't. But I want one....and that's why I came here for help. I guess what I'm saying is, some people's expectations for functionality may not be as high as all the design advisors here, and if they are okay with that and understand, then that's the OP choice. Personally, after reading a lot more here, I now understand what Sophie is saying about spending loads of $$ on stupid design and how that's such a waste. For the most part, I agree that it seems appalling to spend money on a kitchen when the layout is dysfunctional. However at the same time, sometimes you have to live with what you've got or the budget you have, and that may mean not having the most functional or ideal layout ever based on whatever constraint that is, whether it be $ or personal preferences or whatever.

All that being said, I do think words are powerful and at times, they are used a bit haphazardly. We can all be respectful while still giving advice. I know I've been so SO grateful for the honest input and advice given by many people here. It's been incredibly helpful.

I think some people are unnecessarily mean to the point where I think it just makes them feel better to tear others down, and I usually see threads head downhill when they chime in, but they are happily far far in the minority here.

I agree that some people are quick to suggest budget busters: as a relatively low budget (for non-diy) person I still got lots of helpful advice and feedback and just had to ignore the suggestions that were way out of range. I think that's part of the responsibility of asking for help, knowing your own limits and standing firm on what you really can't do. I personally love the low budget and teeny tiny kitchens to work on because it takes a lot more ingeniousness and problem solving skills to fit everything in than working with an acre and a half. That said, I had a kitchen with so many obstacles I ended up completely moving it to the other side of my house, so I can't disagree that a fresh take can do wonders!

Pal it's interesting that you mention about people not even recognizing their own furniture. I grew up not understanding how people couldn't visualize certain things, especially color and color combinations. I thought it was a skill everyone had and only as I became an adult did I learn that no, it's a skill most people didn't have.

I think we have to all realize that not everyone can understand what we are thinking or even what we are showing in a plan. I know I can show my DH a floor layout and he'll still ask what the thing in the corner is. (the toilet) And he'll ask where's his closet when it's labeled right on the floor plan. to me looking at a floor plan is second nature. I can take it and visualize it in 3d, at least I can with the interior. the exterior, I feel like I'm more like DH. It takes me longer to understand.

But recognizing their own furniture seems so basic. And so scary sad not to be able to do so. As I was just going to make a joke about Palimpsest's clients, I just remembered reading about a very rare affliction where people don't recognize someone, even their own child or spouse, after they have left their presence for just a few minutes. They have to be trained to process other cues like voice, body language and movements typical to that person, scent, clothing, etc., because the face looks like everybody else's face to them. How odd and sad would that be to live with? It really isn't a joking matter, is it?

Actually funky one of the most famous living portrait painters alive today suffers from that exact affliction. Chuck Close link.

@palimpset - my friend's brother worked at a residential architecture firm and I remember him telling me about the client from hell on the project he was working on at the time. She couldn't decide which of 3 options for a decorative balustrade she wanted. Hand sketches, cad drawings, and example photos didn't help. She wouldn't make a decision until he printed the cad drawings out life size on 11x17 paper and taped them all to the wall so she could look at 3 mock staircases side by side. (I think it was just in the office but she may have even wanted them taped up in situ- fortunately that firm charged by the hour.)

So I can totally believe that people are visually incompetent enough not to recognize their own furniture in an unfamiliar context....

Cpartist, I had a very similar realization in geometry in high school. Our teacher was having us do a lot of drawings on isometric paper -- drawing the same figure from different angles. It took me a LONG time to realize that it wasn't just that he was spending an absurdly long time teaching us how to use isometric paper. What we were really doing was practicing flipping and recognizing 3D objects from different angles. I didn't realize that was a thing people struggled with it or needed to work on.

This still comes up when I watch other people try to do jigsaw puzzles or follow IKEA furniture assembly instructions and get SO confused or try to fit things that so obviously (to me) are backwards or mirror images instead of a match. Or with moving furniture -- like how if a few people are going to pick a couch up and carry it around something or through a hallway, who needs to stand where or go first so the furniture piece faces the right direction at the end of moving it.

I am terrible with color and finishes, though, so I suppose it all evens out. :)

I took a year of drafting in high school. One unit was doing just what Jilius described: we got one view of a machine part and had to draw it from other angles. I was a total bust. I'm afraid I am like the woman and the balustrades. I want to visualize it, but I just can't.

When I was planning my kitchen, I read a suggestion here to set up boxes, tables, whatever, to mimic the kitchen layout, then go through the motions of cooking a meal to see how it worked. That is what I had to do. It was a terrific suggestion and very helpful for me.

I can repack a 28 foot moving van packed by my sister into a 20' box truck with space left over. It's like a giant 3D Tetris. I ''see'' it in my head. It's one of the struggles of my life to realize that others can't see the same thing. Or even imagine it. Some people have a ''nose'' for scent discrimination. Others see better than 20/20. I can think space.

HA! maybe I need to play more Tetris.

She wouldn't make a decision until he printed the cad drawings out life size on 11x17 paper and taped them all to the wall so she could look at 3 mock staircases side by side.

Some people want actual full-scale models. Usually this is a contract project, and for a committee, and they will pay for it. A residential client who usually wants something like this will also usually want it for nothing.

I did a presentation to a condo board once.

The initial problem was that when I wanted to find out what the scope of the project is, they didn't really know. They wanted to know how much "something like this" cost, before they decided what they wanted to do. We reached some sort of tentative list, which I could already tell was going to be about five times the amount they wanted to spend.

I took photographs of the existing lobby. These were on the board labeled "BEFORE"

I did renderings of those same areas from the same viewpoint, but redecorated these were labeled "AFTER".

Because I have a fine art background I can do renderings that are extremely lifelike and accurate. Clients have taken pictures of finished kitchens and shown me that you could almost superimpose the rendering and the finished product.

The lobby was high 1980s loft/industrial with exposed ductwork, ceramic floors on concrete, grey commercial carpet, brass pipe railings, "Victorian Factory" lighthing, and the seating area had a shiny golden oak beveled wood ceiling set on a diagonal. Dated, but also unfortunately updated at some point in the past with chair rail, and fussy "Victorian" wallpaper borders and ugly motel art.

One of the board members was late, because his persona was that of "I am so much busier than everyone else"

So at the beginning of the presentation he kept interrupting, and finally he said " I, ahem, am not as intelligent as my colleagues here",-- In that sort of tone that means he thinks he is much smarter than everyone in the room, " so I need some orientation as to what I am looking at"

"What is that?"

A: that is the ceiling

And 'that?"

A: that is the floor

Okay, now I have orientation. But WHY is the ceiling that gold color. Why does it have stripes? I don't understand the idea here?"

A: that is the existing ceiling.

"Snort" I know there is a ceiling. But why did you make it gold with stripes? Does anybody else think that this is a good idea? I don't get where you are going with your design.

And he kind of looked around for support.

And I just kind of stood there with my mouth hanging open I guess, because one of the other board members said

"Richard. The ceiling is ALREADY wood. It is Oak, set on the diagonal. It's already there. Look at the photos on the board which is How the Lobby Looks Right Now, and compare them to the drawing Next to it to see the changes.

The ceiling in the lobby is wood? Really?.

I actually left my presentation boards there at the end of the meeting and never sent them a bill. I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

I've noticed in real estate photos that they must have taken bits and pieces of my ideas and executed them piecemeal over the next few years.

______

I don't really blame people for not having this sort of perceptual ability. However, I have found that a certain number of these people, because they don't have it themselves, don't really believe that other people have it and have absolutely no trust in somebody else to make those sorts of decisions. Thats the frustrating part.

I was going to comment on this observation of pal's (and others') earlier, but didn't want to derail the OP's original intent too much. But I think this is very pertinent to the discussion.

I, too, am fairly poor at spatial visualization. (although I am quite good at packing the trunk of a car efficiently. Better than DH. Huh) I can wrap my head around things if I'm given good verbal descriptions and have time to actually process it. Seeing it on paper and being able to orient the plan to the space is of course better for me. I can't decide now (in my advancing years) if this is something I'm truly not good at or if I decided that a long time ago and just give up too easily. I think it would be good for my brain to practice this more. Jigsaw puzzles are good.

When we remodeled the kitchen I was very stuck with the inability to see outside the box. DH was as well, although his brain is somewhat better at it than mine. Our architect actually made 3-D models out of cardboard with removable walls and things when showing us her original 3 plans for our space. We didn't ask her to do this; it's just something she likes to do. It did help.

I agree that this inability hampers people and frustrates them when they have things they really want included in their kitchen design. They don't want to let go and sometimes get defensive.

But it's strange to me that people who aren't good at this would assume others wouldn't be as well.

Speaking of perception, a guy at Corian school in '94 told of how he had a lady unhappy with the grain of her wood cabinet doors he had provided and installed. He came back, took them out, wrapped them in blankets, loaded them in the truck and said he'd be back in six weeks when the "new" doors came in. He got back to the shop and put the doors under a bench.

He reinstalled them six weeks later, and the lady was much happier with the "replacement" doors.

Joe, she just needed to get used to the grain. Funny story but makes a really good point. When I see people here post about something that didn't turn out like they expected, they really should wait as it just takes time for your mind to get it.

Ok, right now everyone think about where you work. Describe the ceiling, the color of the floor, your desk, etc. I admit I had to really think about it, even the color of my desk. My office is very generic. There is tile in the office bathroom and I have no idea of the shape or color.

Some people notice all the details and remember it. I guess most don't, even in their own home. So I guess Richard never really noticed or really cared about the lobby or probably any space. He should have said that this was not his area of interest or knowledge and just bow out of it.

For those of you who are able to notice details, visualize spaces, etc. it is truly a gift. Pal, I agree it is hard for those of us who don't have it to understand that other do have it. It's like arguing with someone who is color blind. They often can't accept what you tell them about the color of something. They assume it looks the same to everyone.

You can have a high spatial intelligence and still have areas that are difficult for you. My husband and I both have the ability to easily orientate objects spatially. On paper he can flip something far quicker than I ever could. He's a very Science/ Math brain kind of guy. In real life applications though he doesn't fare as well. He can never visualize what I'm trying to explain to him without pictures. Of course some of that could be in the way I explain it, but he also is terrible when it comes to packing. Every move and vacation we've taken I take on the lead role because we learned early on that I am just way better when it comes to that. I get the "There's no way that is going to fit." I always reply, "Oh I'll make it fit." And I do. It's a bit of an on-going joke between us. So there are skill sets within the ability to use spatial awareness.

Another thing to remember is that hormones can affect the ability to look at an object in that manner. This is especially true for women and different times of the month. Sometimes it will be easier to grasp than other times due to estrogen fluctuations.

@cpartist - thanks for sharing about Mr. Close. Fascinating that someone with facial recognition issues would make a career painting faces. His work is interested. Hope I can see one in person someday. I have a feeling my monitor is missing some great details.

I think this is a fascinating discussion. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, don't we?

A few years back, I came across a test on a website to determine your ability to recognize colors. I figured it would be super-easy. They would display a square of color and then a long line with probably 30-40 small squares and you were to click on the one that was the same color as the original square. The ones on each end of this line of squares were clearly, to me, NOT the same color. But there would be a group of 8-12 or so that all looked like the same color to me. So I would just end up guessing. I was totally surprised at how bad I scored. I had no idea I had a color affliction before. It does make me pause when I put together outfits or decor. I try to get feedback to ensure I'm seeing whether things match or contrast appropriately.

I know here on GW, I will spend quite a bit of time looking at photos where people are describing a white as having yellow or pink or blue undertones. What? It looks white to me, lol. Trying to learn how to recognize that stuff isn't easy for me. That's why I tend to stay out of discussions that ask what backsplash looks best. I read them to learn but I don't trust my suggestions so I tend to not make any.

And I can't help with layouts unless there is a good floorplan with a layout to go from. I need that 2D overhead drawing that is roughly in proportion. Explanations, photos, and elevations without that 2D are worthless to me. I have to wait until someone with the skill to translate those to a 2D plan before jumping in to offer suggestions.

This is a fascinating subtopic and would make a great topic on it's own. I am the worst category - I have poor visualization and spatial skills BUT I care a LOT about my space and am one of those people who really find therapy in an environment that is aesthetically pleasing. (It would be so much easier if I just didn't care) As you can imagine this makes picking a paint color crazy-making. Well, I can see it in my head, but it doesn't transfer to reality - and because I have zero artistic skill (have me draw next to a kindergartner student and have fun guessing who drew what), it's VERY difficult for me to translate/communicate what I see in my head for others. This is why I like to find inspiration pics that are pretty much exactly what I want. I trust my taste, but not my ability to visualize it in my head and make it translate to reality. (Unfortunately, I haven't found such a pic for the kitchen after looking at 3 M pics, so that is unsettling for me.) And, now that pal mentions it, it's probably difficult for me to totally trust someone who CAN do it, partially because I know I haven't been able to adequately relay what is actually in my head so how could they really translate it for me?

When I was a new home owner, I brought a chair home after going to stare at it for weeks. The way I visualized it, it was PERFECT in my home. When they delivered it, it was way over-sized for the scale of the room and had to go right back. That's maybe when I really realized this is a problem for me and I was in my 30's. I try to only buy furniture that can be returned upon delivery, which gets trickier as time goes on! LOL But, I've learned to use free room design software like you can find on West Elm and that really helps. In fact, I used that to furnish my new office at work last year. The space was tricky in that it is small and needs to function as a group space as well as individual meetings and accommodate people of different sizes and physical capabilities. But, it also needs to serve as my office and store my books/paperwork, give me a place to write, etc. I did so well with it I am episodically asked if I hired a designer. Come a long way, baby?

I'd love to study this more, actually. While my visualization/spatial skills are poor and I can't draw, I have considerable natural propensity for music and played for years and years. In the world of relaxation strategies, different people tend to respond to different techniques - some love listening to sound or a voice coaching them through, others respond better to visualization or staring at objects, etc. And the idea that people are raising here that we can build our spatial abilities through exercise, puzzles, practice, training, exposure is very interesting.

In the meanwhile, I have this gutted empty space and it is not accompanied by a gut sense of how the space will feel or function with stuff back in it... and it's a tad unnerving, now that I pause to think about it.

I can't remember if it was here or on Ikeafans, but when I first started thinking and trying to work up a plan (and like a few previous posters mentioned, I had no idea about costs, possibilities, etc) someone asked me for my "mission statement" for the kitchen. Huh? What? It's a kitchen, I plan to cook and store food in it. See, in some ways I have that sort of very literal brain. I couldn't imagine just what this person was asking me about. I think that person was a bit frustrated with my minimal response to her query.

I am not at all sure that people who don't have a certain skill assume that others don't have it in the way of assuming "everyone is like me" -- sometimes it is more like that skill literally doesn't exist in their universe so that there is no conceptual basis for assuming someone might have it.

I am not a visualizer either, but I do recognize and am grateful that other people are.

The most useful thing I've learned from this forum in evaluating function is assessing household composition and lifestyle. Many OP's provide this info initially, in subsequent feedback, or when asked by responders to their thread. How many people live here? How many are typically in the kitchen at the same time? Where do you prefer to eat meals? How often do you entertain and for how many at a time?

The people who respond usually use the info in explaining their tweaks and designs. Eg: "With the size of your family, I thought you could use a larger pantry." "Since you entertain frequently, this layout gives you better flow." " Given there are usually only 2 of you, do you really need 3 or more places to eat?" Great layouts can come from understanding how the family really lives, what their priorities are.

Sometimes though, responders seemingly don't read the lifestyle information or disregard it. An OP says they can't/ don't want to make any structural changes, but they are presented with a number of designs involving major structural changes. An OP makes it clear they want to retain their separate dining room/family room/breakfast room/whatever... and are shown designs eliminating those features in favor of one big open space instead. Perhaps because that's what the designer likes, what fits THEIR lifestyle, not the person who asked for advice.

Most OP's are gracious about designs that don't suit, but I can see how it might become frustrating. At best a person may feel unheard. At worst they feel they are being pushed in a direction they don't want, need, or could afford. I'm not surprised when some OP's stop replying - they may not want to appear negative by shooting down repeated designs - they may tire of reiterating what they don't want and why they don't want it.

@rebunky

I was amused you saved Marcolo's observations on the woman who had an awkward island . I remember that thread well and also a second one she did a couple months later. After numerous, NUMEROUS, designs submitted by herself and several others...the design she seemed to like the best was the one where she had a similarly shaped island in the same place only sans a cooktop. Ah well. :-)

I find the spacial skill thing fascinating. I think I am about average in most spacial skills, but I am horrible at reading maps or following directions.

My son, who is quirky in all regards, is astoundingly good at maps and directions (he was giving me directions to get places and reading maps better than I was by the time he was four). He always drew pictures of buildings as floor plans (if you said draw a picture of your house, he would draw the floor plan, not an elevation). And he can reproduce floor plans for television show houses by building them out of blocks. But he can't put a jig saw puzzle together to save his life.

Dh is also astoundingly good at maps and land navigation. He could draw his entire schematic for the radars he used to repair when he was in the marine corps from memory for years after he stopped doing that work. Yet he never noticed that the kitchen sink in our first house was off center. And like someone mentioned above he's always saying the luggage won't fit in the car while I'm saying sure it will and making it fit just fine.

So there must be a lot of subsets within the general category of spatial skills.

Funky - Your post made me laugh. My husband and I have had many "disagreements" about what color something is.

Crl_ I too think there has to be subsets. I think some of it might also be that some people may be very convergent thinkers. My husband is like this. He's super intelligent, was in enrichment learning classes, scored well on testing, especially in math and science. Then there are people who are divergent thinkers. That's more like me. I look at a problem and see that there isn't just black and white. I tend to look for new ways to solve a problem and tend to find solutions (the majority of the time) fairly quickly for myself. It's sort of an "out of the box" thinker.

I always knew I thought like this but it wasn't until we had a meeting for placing our youngest in the gifted program. Lucky kid got my husband's convergent thinking skills and my divergent thinking skills. I didn't even realize their was such a thing until that meeting. It will be interesting to see how he ends up using it later on in life. One thing is for sure I know the kids is going to be far more intelligent than I am. I think the way I think might be part of the reason I find it frustrating that some responders to threads can't understand that sometimes there can be more than one solution or way of doing things. Our world is definitely not a one size fits all.

@raee - haha, count me in the literal brain camp - I can't deal with "mission statements" unless there is an actual concrete mission to be stated.

I didn't post plans because my kitchen is so small that there really were only two layout options. If I'd posted asking for ideas half the people would have told me to knock down load bearing walls and move the kitchen. Since the land value is more than the value of the house that wouldn't have been a good idea, even though it would be a perfectly reasonable investment in a different location. If I had more options to consider I might still have posted, with the explanation of why the wall wasn't coming down, but I bet I would have gotten open concept plans anyway.

Interesting comment, fishcow. I live in a rural area where housing prices have been depressed for the last couple decades. It's always a buyer's market. We have to watch our dollars on remodeling projects because it doesn't take much to over-improve for the area.

Regarding all these spacial sub-sets, I am excellent at map reading and can navigate any city, road, train system, airport, and such without a problem. I can be in a huge complex of unfamiliar buildings in a place I've never been, go in one entry, come out another, and know exactly how to get back to my car or wherever it is I want to go. My husband is totally lost in those situations. He would walk in circles for hours if I wasn't there. However, get him in the woods and he can travel cross-country without any kind of map or navigational aid and come right back to the car. I, on the other hand, have trouble navigating with good trail maps and need to do things like turn around when I take a turn on a trail to another trail system and memorize (or take a photo) of what the trail looks like behind me or I have no idea how to get back. I have to work at it and, yeah, I have been a bit lost a few times. And I've even taken trail navigation classes. I should tie surveyor's tape like Hansel and Gretyl's bread crumbs (removing it as I go back, of course!). I'm considering doing orienteering to help me improve. Hope it helps. I really want to be able to do more hiking without having to have someone with me, lol.

Fishcow, my kitchen (and house) is small and there was not going to be any change in footprint for me either; but I did post and got the suggestion for relocating my stove to another wall that was the answer for me. A simple thing that was likely obvious to most, but I didn't think of it it (and neither did the designer at the first store I talked to.)

Also I did not get any suggestions that were inappropriate for my budget/space, nor have I noticed a ton of that happening for other people who post.

There are a lot of large kitchens done here, but the small, limited spaces are also helped and equally appreciated, I think.

This has been a really interesting thread! I discovered GW only fairly recently and after I was already pretty far into the planning process of our kitchen remodel. So, I had already committed to a layout, but I had more specific questions and research. And this has a been a great resource. Sometimes it's the old threads that don't even have much to do with your question where you find a valuable tip.

One thing I thought I'd mention is that I love it when people post photos. I would encourage people to do more of that. The people posting asking for help could post more photos of their existing space or if that's not applicable then some inspiration photos. And people responding can always post more photos of examples.

I guess I'm a visual person. I can read a floorpan, but I really relate to photos.

There is some Tough Love here for sure, but for those new to
the site, it can be a bit much. Plus, before you’ve read hundreds of posts
here, it is hard to know who knows what they are talking about and who just repeats
the conventional wisdom that may or may not be right for you. I came at a point
where we could have had anything we wanted and I still never posted a layout. I
saw too many people told “you must have a prep sink,” “you want your dishwasher
near your dining room,” “you want your refrigerator near your dining room,” “you
want an island, not a peninsula,” and so on. People tend to make assumptions
based on their own situations, so you have to evaluate that to see what fits.

So I read and read and read, until I got to where I could
predict who would make which suggestions a good percentage of the time. I took
a lot of the advice given to others where I thought it fit our circumstances,
and ignored the rest. I have very few regrets, maybe one small one that amounts
to a 2 inch difference in a cabinet I don’t need access to very often. We could
have probably narrowed the entry aisle that much and not noticed. One of my
drawers could be an inch deeper, too.

But I got a silgranit sink I’d never heard of and love (shockingly,
not a single!), induction (which I’d never heard of), great ventilation (very
deep front to back, but the same width hood as the cooktop!), 19 or 20 drawers in a
configuration based on our actual kitchen contents, etc. Our oven is under
counter (yep it’s low, but I’ll keep doing yoga, I guess), our microwave is on
a shelf at 18” above the counter (but we’re tall), our fridge is in a Dead End
location (but we don’t have snackers in the house who need access during dinner prep), and worst
of all, our overhang in the seating area is 12” (which has worked fine for us
for 30 years and still does.) We have no garbage disposal, but do love our trash
pullouts and pullout cutting boards. Heck, we don’t even have an actual pantry!
But the important thing is that it wasn’t for lack of thinking of all these things.

Now that I know what I know, I sort of wish I had posted a layout,
but I don’t think I was confident enough in my instincts then, even the ones
that were right! And when I’ve let myself get talked into or out of things
related to this house, I’ve regretted it 95% of the time. But I’ve read a ton
of threads here and taken away an incredible amount of useful information. And
I know what you mean about asking for input and then arguing with every last
bit of it—those threads make for interesting reading!

I really appreciate everything I learned here. I’ve asked
many specific questions and found people to be quite helpful. I just wanted to
point out that people have different ways of finding the site useful. Our house
is somewhat idiosyncratic, so I have not posted pix, but maybe someday I will!
Anyway, it fits us perfectly. (We both have excellent spatial visualization
skills, so that has helped).