We have a big bay that seems to be ok in these conditions and I
considered making a bay hedge, but that might be quite a slow grower?

Laurus shoots up fairly fast.

Your soil may not be as acidic as you think. Soil pH is dependent on the underlying mineral content and the amount of rainfall you receive. It has nothing to do with plant debris. Even pine needles, which tend to be quite acidic when fresh, lose this characteristic as they age and begin to breakdown and contribute virtually nothing to the acidity of the soil. Same with other acidic type plant leavings, like other conifer needles, oak leaves, maple leaves and walnut leaves. Their presence has no significant impact on soil pH.

Bay laurel makes an excellent hedge. If this is doing well for you in this location, it would be a good choice.

Dear all, I have a vague memory from when we had a borehole that the water was often acidic, but I didn't know that the pine leaves made little difference to the soil pH. I've looked around since and bay laurel is definitely on the shortlist. Anything you can cook with gets a bonus point. I have also looked at slightly reddish plants like the barberry, that might go well next to dark green pine, reddish granite and the red Fuschia flowers from further along.

Glad you said that, gg, about pine needles/soil pH. Sure is hard to put down that myth!

Kaspar, I have very limited awareness of your location and its characteristics, so will defer to others as far as plant recommendations. But this wouldn't be a response from me to a question about screening, hedges, and the like if I didn't mention the absolutely marvelous effect that can be achieved with nothing more than globe arborvitaes, planted sufficiently close to one another such that they form a rounded, never-needs-pruning wall of green. Since there are cultivars from tiny to quite large, I don't typically get into that. I used the old standby 'Woodward' to create just such a hedge when my folks built their new house twelve or so years ago. It has worked perfectly. My dad's quite tall, and if he wishes to see over the thing, he need merely stand up. But seated at their patio, enclosure is complete.

Kind of a soft climate area to be bothering with Thuja occidentalis.

A landscape of all attention-grabbers is a harsh landscape, one which people do not wish to look at, quite the opposite of what may have been intended. The attitudes about the intended functions of a hedge or screen as demonstrated by the above two posts indicate an ignorance of this landscape reality. All showboaters=no show.

I'm not clear on the temperatures there. I don't suppose you know the USDA Zone? There are pines...is shade an issue? You say it is windy and you are on an island..is salt spray a problem?

I would second Rugosa Rose. Pretty, very wind tolerant, salt tolerant. Check your area's invasive species list though. Also not evergreen.

I also rather like holly. Tolerant of wind and shade and has winter interest.

Rhododendron is evergreen, acid tolerant, and has very showy flowers. Mountain Laurel is finicky but shade tolerant and very pretty.

You are probably warm enough to have many tropical options I'm not aware of.

US zones don't mean much in the UK. They are based on minimum temperatures and those can be relatively warm here. But they don't indicate summer temperatures which are relatively cool here. The coolest month on Jersey is January with an average minimum temp of 39f. On the other hand the warmest month is August with an average maximum temp of 69f. Jersey is one of the Channel Islands which is closer to France than the UK Mainland. The Channel Islands are renowned for their very early, and delicious, new potatoes (Jersey Royals) and also their early cut flower industry. If I lived there I would not be wasting much garden space on Holly or Pines which are two a penny. There are so many more interesting options in a mild climate with plenty of rain and hardly ever any frost.

wisconsintom - I rather resent your judgement on my previous post. Although I may be wrong, I think I might be in a better position to talk about coastal hedging in the UK than you are. The plants I suggested are just ideas and are all pretty modest choices. There is multitude of plain green BLE available if some foil is required. There will also be an all year round ubiquitous green background of grass. Note that the OP mentions that this hedge will be next to/on top of a granite wall. This is the traditional style of hedging in the Channel Islands as well as in Cornwall. Note also that elsewhere on the wall there are Fuchsias. These have been grown there so long they too have become part of the traditional landscape. You tell me I display 'ignorance of this landscape reality' as if there is a great landscaping truth which applies worldwide. And to tell me I don't understand the functions of a hedge is astonishing. If you knew the location you would understand that a row of globe arborvitae would be about as 'harsh' a landscape as it is possible to imagine there.

However, if you have lived for 6 decades in the British Isles never more than 40 miles from the sea, visited countless coastal gardens, walked hundreds of miles of our coastline, much of it alongside hedges and some of it on Jersey, I apologise and defer to your greater knowledge.

Throw in a little sarcasm on the side.......Regardless, your points are well-taken, and in truth, it was the other fellow-who seems to fancy himself the great arbiter of all knowledge here that I primarily aimed that at. You just got dragged in as you seemed to want to pile on. For purposes of this discussion, I am willing to concede that the arb idea may not be the best, but it is the larger truth-that harmonious landscapes require neutral elements as well as brightly-colored eye catchers to look good and function well. And I think this was the issue being lost in the other fellow's repost.

I've got no horse in this race either way...think and do as you please. I don't even know for certain where the Channel islands are, although their name suggests one possible area!

Yes, in the channel! Very rarely below 0c in winter, rarely above 30c in summer. Most things grow here pretty well. Famous botanists of the past used the island for botanical collections. Because we are on top of a hill we get the wind when there are gales. That is why the pine was planted, to protect the house a little. I would say the hedge location is still pretty open and light, but not the hottest spot in the garden (semi-shade). We are not directly by the sea, so although a little salty, it isn't a big issue. We are likely to go for something less showy, or maybe mix things up a bit, and low in size (as it is already raised a bit by the wall and I dislike large wall-like hedges. A semi-screen is fine. I wouldn't have a hedge at all if the backyard was in any way nice to look at for walkers on the road! I will take a closer look at the suggestions made and let you all know what we end up with. Thanks for the pointers! K

floral_uk, once I google I recognise them, being more of a visual person than a language brain! Many are already in the garden. My grandparents who once lived here were excellent gardeners (with language brains), it's just suffered a period of inactivity (on our part), due to other commitments. Some parts now resemble an overgrown midnight garden, which is of course lovely, but in need of some careful decision making. The hedge location has half a wooden fence at the moment, which keeps blowing down every year, thus the idea of planting something instead. I guess the fuschias work well in that respect as the wind just passes through in winter when the foliage isn't there. And yes, they have been there for years!

I wasn't actually suggesting pine, merely suggesting how to plan around pre-existing pine. When I answer these questions, I look for constraints...limitations. Doesn't seem you have many.

i was suggesting holly because I love your English hollies...

Ninebark and sand cherry have red foliage and great wind tolerance. If you want edible, there are many knds of berry bush.

Mountain laurel is small. New Jersey tea has edible leaves and great wind tolerance,.

A few broad leaf evergreens can look horrible for a while after exposure to wind-propelled salt spray. Doesn't sound like you'd have any trouble with deciduous plants, or the tougher evergreens.

I agree thuja is a bad choice here. It's more an option for people in northern climates with fewer evergreen options, or folks who want a tall screen. Since it sounds like this hedge isn't that Long, you can get away with fairly showy.

Mountain Laurel (Kalmia sp.) is actually really quite difficult in most of the the UK outside peaty areas. I've hardly ever seen one. Ceanothus is a good suggestion. The blue Californian ones do well here in many places. To be honest, Kaspar, I'd seek local knowledge, since most posters here are US- based and, as you can see, don't have much experience of your kind of environment. I'm pleased that the stuff I suggested is appropriate since it is already in the garden. How about a couple of pictures of the situation?

As far as I can tell, Mountain Laurel is pretty difficult period. I did describe it as "finicky". I've made a couple tries to get it established...oddly, the one that "took" was the one from the bargain bin of a Big Box store...
I suggested the Ceanothus because you said you wanted things you could cook with.

By all means, post to the local UK forum.

floral_uk Sure, I can send some pics in the next day or two. I'm also going to ask a couple of friends. Just thought I'd post it and see what sort of things come up. Going back to your list, I think they are all in the garden somewhere!

the other fellow-who seems to fancy himself the great arbiter of all knowledge here

No comment.

Hi again , Kaspar. Yes, do ask friends. When I suggested you ask locally I meant to speak to real people on the ground. And visit local gardens if you can. The UK Forum here on GW is well nigh dead.

I have a picture of the situation in my mind's eye and it would be good to find out how whether I am close. I'm visualising your pine as Pinus radiata, Monterrey Pine, since those are so typical of the sea side. Photos would be great.

Here's your pic of the site. Though near the sea, it isn't by the seaside (as it is on the hill). Gale force 9 on Monday, so that might clear the rest of the old fence!

Lovely old wall. Much as I had imagined. Good luck with choosing and planting.

I think on a US scale of things anywhere on Jersey would be classed as 'near the sea' since the island is only 8 1/2 miles long and 5 miles wide. ;-)

When I first read Channel Islands, I thought off the coast of California.

Mike

Here (western USDA 8) what pops on its own under conifers includes cotoneasters, Ilex aquifolium, Mahonia aquifolium, Pyracantha coccinea and Stranvaesia davidiana. Looking at online maps and going by the fact that you are used to Laurus nobilis being seen there you are probably in USDA 9.

Zone 9 if you go by the Winter minimums but the Summers are nothing like as hot as some USDA zone 9s can be so they aren't really comparable. Your list of self sowers would be roughly the same here except for the Stranvaesia. Though that might eventually be added to the list since they have become very common and are beginning to flower and berry here, which I don't recollect seeing a couple of decades ago. Bay self sows in many places in the UK including my local park and on my allotment where the council dumps leaves in the Autumn..

Zone 9 if you go by the Winter minimums but the Summers are nothing like
as hot as some USDA zone 9s can be so they aren't really comparable

The USDA Hardiness Zones refer to average annual minimum temperatures only* which is how it was in fact possible to convey them to Britain and other places outside of the US - my part of Zone 8 is not as hot as Zone 8 in other parts of the US also.

*Because of this the separate AHS Heat Zone mapping was developed to deal with how hot different areas get. The only system I have seen in use that is based on the entire climate is the Sunset Climate Zones.

Looking at that picture, I suspect it is smaller then some were visualizing.

How often is the summer upper temperature really a deal breaker? Usually it is winter cold or drought that is the limiting factor. Given the generally moderate temperatures, I don't think many plants besides outright tropicals would have an issue there.

Summer upper temperatures make a difference to a lot of crops. They can indeed be a deal breaker. Some trees will grow healthily here but they won't flower or fruit. For example, Crape Myrtle is shy to flower in the UK. Virginia Creeper grows really well but rarely sets berries. Loquats grow but don't fruit. Peaches are tricky outdoors. Melons and egg plant are well nigh impossible except under glass. Peppers don't thrive. Even tomatoes are iffy.

In the Winter it is often wet rather than cold that finishes plants off here.

I don't have much knowledge of the intricacies of zones, as you can tell, because it is a concept which is not really used here. But I do know they are based on average annual minimum temperatures. That is what I said in a slightly shortened version. The British Isles are, on the whole, far more homogeneous climatically than the US so we don't need to refer to zones. If you asked a UK gardener which zone they were in they would probably not understand the question. They will refer to gardening in the North or the South or near the coast but that's about it. The RHS has produced its own hardiness ratings for plants but they are not yet widely used by the average gardener. RHS hardiness ratings compared with USDA zones.

Floral, it sounds exactly like you are describing the climate here in the PNW! Same relatively mild winters and cool summers. Crape myrtles seldom bloom here as well unless in a situation with considerable reflected heat. And while figs grow beautifully here, only certain varieties will reliably produce fruits and almost none will produce the second or late season crop or if they do, take them to maturity and ripeness. Same with loquats - they flourish but seldom ever fruit. Ditto with hot season veggies like tomatoes, peppers and eggplants - not impossible but best in a container, with reflected heat and using those varieties that produce early or have a short harvest date.

"As far as I can tell, Mountain Laurel is pretty difficult period."

It really depends where you are; Mountain Laurel grows wild in the woods around my property and I'd reckon them - even the Connecticut bred cultivars - to be as easy as as any BLE here. So, that means as easy as Ilex and certainly easier than many Rhododendrons.

Seattle area horticulturalist Robert Wagner did a great write-up on the PNW versus NW European climate here. They are close but not a precise match.

www.cloudforest.com/northwest/forum/285.html

One slight correction I would make would be "Grass normally browns out in eastern B̶r̶i̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ England in the summer." Scotland was having an uncharacteristically rain-free summer when I was there (I wouldn't exactly call it dry) but even the eastern cities of Edinburgh and St. Andrews were mostly green and lush looking. When daily highs are 64F-68F and the sun feels as strong as a 60w lightbulb (compared to what I was used to) , it doesn't matter that it last rained 2 or even 3 weeks ago. The exposed hills around Edinburgh were dry and browning by the end of summer, but grass in more sheltered areas was still at least partly green. He correctly notes this is the case with eastern Ireland, too.

Also, several combined minds on either side of the Atlantic have come to the conclusion that while date palms might have survived several mild years as far north as western Scotland, probably at Inverewe, they aren't still there after colder winters nor were ever as prominent as RW suggested. Thus the northernmost fully established and sufficiently old ones still being on the Scilly Islands, and at Fota near Cork. Huge cordylines are prominent anywhere near the sea in the British Isles, although I was there after the cold winter of 1996 and the ones on the east coast of Scotland had been killed to the ground while the ones I saw on the west coast at Culzean still had their trunks.

I would take issue with the idea that grass 'normally browns out' . That's just bizarre. I am also amazed at the claim that Brugmansia is winter hardy in 'Edinborough'. I can't say I've ever seen one survive outdoors anywhere. But since the author can't spell the name of the city maybe the other info is suspect too.

When my mother went to England there were brown lawns like we see every summer here in the Seattle area. She was told the browning in Britain that year was due to a 100 year drought. Unlike in western North America, the norm over there is for rainfall to be distributed evenly throughout the year.

The far west coast all the way to Ireland is historically California mild due to the ocean currents. The eastern areas get cold air off the continent, and the conditions in the hilly part in the center are affected by elevation.

Of course, as elsewhere disruptions and extreme events are being seen in recent years due to climate change.

This, incidentally, illustrates a point I've long made. The concept of the lawn was inspired by the British climate and doesn't really make sense in large swaths of the US. Most places I've encountered grass that isn't aggressively maintained "browns out" part of the year...whether in the winter or summer drought depends on climate and variety of grass. The lawn is really a very climatically inappropriate choice in most places. But we too a vision of the perfect lawn inspired by some place in Britain and ran with it.

Glad to see that the thread has created lots of discussion! Our little lawn goes brown with mole hills! K

Remember in olden times you couldn't correct a post for spelling mistakes. Robert Wagner was pretty worldly and well informed as internet posters go (or went...he voluntarily banished himself some years ago) so I'm sure spelling Edinburgh incorrectly was a mere clerical error. You will notice he was praised by an Englishman for the general accuracy of his post. He communicated with a lot of rare plant collectors on both sides of the pond and it seems not implausible that one of the rare, hardier "cloud forest" Brugmansias could have survived a mild winter in Edinburgh. They seem to be rated zn 9 in some cases.

People get them to live outside here for periods of time. There used to be a row of them along a building in Seattle, for instance - and maybe it is still there. The first thing with features like this to find out is if anyone is wrapping or covering them during the winter. Garden centers here have a habit of displaying tender stuff outside, among the known hardy kinds - there will be no shortage of people planting selections of suspect longevity, knowingly or otherwise. Here we even see Norfolk Island pines being stuck in the ground, to be left to a certain doom.

Brugs are often seen outside in the Summer but I've not come across one outdoors in Winter. These people are expert in cultivating them in the UK and they say 'Brugmansia are not hardy, but if left in the ground and given a mulch during winter, they may come back from ground level.'

One of the evergreen Barberries would be nice. B. darwinii, B. x stenophylla, B. julianae, etc. Burncoose UK nursery - Berberis

Just my personal opinion again but I wouldn't waste a sunny bank in Jersey on Berberis, a ubiquitous urban car park plant. The location would allow far more interesting choices.

Darwin barberry is an outstanding and unique flowering shrub that would look great arching over from the top of that wall.

This early-flowering species is one of the finest of all flowering shrubs

--Hillier Nurseries, The Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs, 2002 edition

One possible concern with that particular planting position would be it eventually starting to poke passers by on the top of the head.

I said it was a personal opinion but I would disagree with Hillier on this one. I find the glaring orange of B darwinii egregious at the time of year it flowers and it never seems to fit in anywhere. And they are so common here - two a penny in any supermarket car park. I just couldn't waste that wonderful climate on something so tough and common.

I find that when people categorically dislike popular plants they always speak of them in isolation, without consideration of how they might look combined with other, visually compatible plants or landscape elements. Or they blame the plant for unappealing settings within which they have seen it placed.

The flower color is a bit strong - reminds me of Cheetohs. Under-planting with blue flowers has been suggested, which would give a warm + cool combination. It also looks good next to Mahonia aquifolium.

Being South American in origin Darwin barberry is actually a bit of a banana belt item itself, prone to being damaged below about 10 F. - which means in my area you just have to go inland or upland a little ways for it to have problems serving as a lasting feature. For instance I planted one in a sheltered position on my girlfriend's place on Camano Island (Island County, WA) and had it freeze out after only a few years. Her place is almost within sight of salt water in two directions yet sits up on the island a bit, receives cold air from a pasture across the street - plants like gums (and Darwin barberry, apparently) that I can grow indefinitely near Seattle don't stick around her place.

I'll probably get shot but two shrubs I wouldn't have on the place are Mahonia and Berberis. When collecting the seed I used to wonder why on Earth we grew it.

[running away]

There are Mahonias and Mahonias. M aquifolium I wouldn't give house room to in a small garden. It's used in places where people have woodland to fill or for tough amenity plantings - those supermarket car parks again. But the deliciously scented Winter flowering ones are an absolute must in our grey damp climate, although not in my tiny garden. Neither Berberis nor Mahonia are invasive here so my opinions are based solely on personal taste.

M. aquifolium doesn't have specimen presence but is superior for planting between other kinds of shrubs to blend their leaf textures together.

Superior? To everything?

Most of the time I see Mahonia aquifolium planted in highway divider strips and sheared to the bone, usually not letting it get higher than three or four feet. I have one that I've never pruned, planted just over a north facing bluff that's 12 ft. tall. The downside is that it sprawls all over. Perhaps a little pruning is in order, but I tend to avoid formality in the garden. To me, it's like restraints, as if I'm imposing my will on nature... and that's a game of catch-up where you eventually lose. I prefer to 'guide prune' rather than shear.

Mike

Kaspar, if you're still looking in....just to give my tuppence worth, or 2 cents for the locals....

...to be perfectly frank, the appearance of the wall with it's broken fencing and tatty exterior generally in the background, bins and other debris lying around... doesn't warrant anything too exotic in my opinion, even though your climate supports it... unless you have ambitions to upgrade the site...

...I would keep it simple and plant a hedge of Euonymus japonica 'ovatus aureus' along that wall, for a bright variegated effect, if you don't mind that... alternatively the plain dark green version with an occasional variegated plant thrown in...

...you have some useful wire netting fence behind, on which I would grow an easy Clematis viticella 'Etoile Violette'... which would cover that fence by mid summer and contrast with the hedge to startle all passers by... but without being too fussy... it flowers June-Sept and pruning is simple, cut to the ground in February...

....to go a bit further and if you want to startle and amaze, then Clematis 'Bill Mackenzie', another easy pruner, would cover that fence and half way up your tree I should think...but I would use the dark green hedge for this...

Alternative hedging suggestions that appeal to me would be Rosemary 'Miss Jessups Upright' or Lavender intermedia 'Grosso'...

...none of these would object to your conditions...

...put some soil into those gaps in the wall and you could grow some attractive Cornish wall plants like Lampranthus, Aubrietia or Alyssum etc... to cascade down...

...at least cover that white pipe to the left there... happy choosing....

It would be pennies for the locals!

We are currently renovating the property (my late grandmothers house). Inside is slowly getting there, but now we have to start on the outside, which is why I'm on here! We want to remove the wooden fence and mesh fencing and replace with a hedge or shrubbery of some kind. It will look better at some point, once building materials disappear, etc, but it will always be the backyard in the background, so a screen of some sort, even if it is not completely opaque and quite low given the height of the wall, would be good. As mentioned we want to tie in to the red fuscia further along. I wouldn't imagine going too exotic along the road. The more exotic plants tend to be housed in the inner garden, which is more sheltered and receives more sunlight.

The pipe is a hose and quite important in the winter to empty the excess water from the water butt that otherwise causes problems on the house wall (and there is a lot of excess water at the moment).

Further along the wall there are lots of flowers shoved into the cracks in the wall. In a month or two it looks lovely. This end is still lacking and yes we will be purring some in. You can also grow edible salads in there. I've been surprised by the amount of bushes with edible berries that have cropped up in conversations and posts that I didn't know about. I like the idea of that too.

Thanks for the additional ideas!

K

Abelias go well with fuchsias. A. x grandiflora (a common clone long sold as the typical plant is now being differentiated by the RHS as 'Lake Maggiore', after the recorded place of origin) tends to grow tall (sometimes as much as 3 m or more), retain a comparatively good furnishing under mild conditions.