Vegetables?

What direction are the trees relative to the garden? Sounds like sun may also be a factor.

maple roots are the worst. I survived by digging a fresh trench every two years, and cutting every root. and mine were small maples 25 ft away from the garden edge.

Well, the sun would begin beating down on half of the garden at about 2 p.m. At the back of the property there is a tall hedge so there wouldn't be much sun there for several feet.

You're lucky glib2 that you were able to dig a trench to cut the maple roots. My tree is too large and I cannot dig a trench that far away because I would be in the neighbor's yard!

And what can I add to the soil to break it up and create air spaces?

sometimes less is more..I don't have regrets about any of the trees I've removed..our wooded lot had some ugly, poorly trimmed unhealthy trees..it made me sad when some of the big ones were removed..I was thinking about how long they were there and now they were removed because of me..but I was NOT the one that hired an incompetent landscaper to trim them which ruined them..to remove some of our trees was a good decision..we planted smaller trees..dogwoods..Japanese maples..one redbud..the lot is prettier now..

I saw a guy on a gardening show spread blood meal on some dry, barren compacted soil underneath a tree..not sure if this is good science based advice or some home remedy..just passing along what I saw..compost and wood chips both improve the soil..

Help me out here. Are the trees 35 feet apart or 50 feet apart? And are they on the north and south side of that box or the east and west side of the box? As toxcrusader already asked, knowing where they are relative to the garden is important.

tj

if they are your trees cut them. they will suck the life out of any vegetable garden, no matter where they cast a shade or not.

I would have the same question as to whether it’s for food or for ornamental plants

If the latter I would be hard-pressed to remove a healthy sugar maple

"And what can I add to the soil to break it up and create air spaces?"

Working gypsum into the soil every year will help break up the clay and improve drainage.

Thanks nicholsworth. I know you have a wooded lot and take very good care of your plants and trees. It will also make me sad to remove this tree. We have been adding compost for at least a decade. The soil is still hard. I am frustrated with the soil condition where these trees are.

Ornamental plants, yes. Vegetables, no.

The right tree in the right place is an asset. A tree in a poor location can never be made right. Believe me when I say, we have many reasons to want this tree removed.

Mntreegrower, thanks for telling me about the gypsum!

Does this simple diagram help?

the soil surrounding my largest Japanese maple is dry, rock hard and loaded with surface roots..the tree was planted by the builder..it's much smaller than your sugar maple..6-7 inch diameter..not even weeds grow under it!..I spread compost there to make the area more attractive and nourish the tree..I wouldn't attempt to plant anything there..it would be frustrating if most of the lot was like that..

Following with interest as the many maples on my lot are aggressive creatures indeed. We notice the shoots and their ability to grow massive amounts of leaves and block all of our sun. Can't say I've noticed the soil is noticeably worse around them but hard to distinguish the effect of maples from the other trees and clay dominated soil. Certainly any soil without a good mulch covering dries and gets hard and dry though quickly. I have to argue with the fanatics in the household to not obsessively Rake everything 'clean. " I still fail to see why bare dirt is considered cleaner than a good mulch.

I would probably just add tons of wood chips and plant flowers in big pots under the trees.

Armoured, you said: "Certainly any soil without a good mulch covering dries and gets hard . . . " I disagree. I have a small area that I have added manure and compost to. It gets a few hours of sun. What a difference to what I experience under these maples! Plants flourish there, but under the maples, they start to decline at about the 2nd or 3rd year. Very disappointing.

Mulching can harbor insects.

I am wondering what wood chips and gypsum would do to my soil other than adding air pockets.

So let's get back to my question: Will removing one tree improve my soil in that area? It certainly will add a couple hours of afternoon sun.

Does anyone have or know of anyone who has two maples 20 feet apart with the diameter of about 20 inches? What could possibly grow under them?

@newhostalardy: iI was referring to my own soil and yard, not saying how yours is. I've only got a smallish patch of traditional yard with lawn and other. All the areas near trees tend to harden up and dry out without mulch. It is a mix of birch and maple and conifers with some chestnuts and others in there. I can't blame the maples specifically for the soil. Although iI took out a few young ones today, both youngish but one had already hit twenty feet tall or so with an impressive canopy. I would have left them but serious crowding to preferred plants.

We're looking to plant a tree on the west side of our house because it could really use some shading, and it doesn't hurt that we have a LOT of space on that side of our lot, enough to plant a maple without it being a foot away from the house and plenty of space before it's not on our lot anymore either. (lol) Better than having to see so much watering going solely to the endless expanse of grass here. We live in a neighborhood association without fences, so while there are trees that the development builder planted, there's just So. Much. Grass. During the winter it's all covered with snow, which I like (Did I mention I hate all the grass yet? lol) but in the springtime after the snowstorms stop and the snow melts, it's all ugly and brown for months.

As for your question - planting under or nearly under a tree is what my mom calls "an exercise in futility". If you remove just one, will it throw off the 'balanced' look (if there is such a thing in your circumstances)? After all, you'll be seeing the area as it looks without the tree there for some time, however long it takes for anything new to fully fill in the desired area.

The diagram does indeed help. I assume the garden would be between where the trees are now. I don't think you're going to be free of tree root problems, because the remaining one will try to fill in the void. However, you can trench at the drip line of the remaining tree, at the edge of your garden, and it should help.

I think maples suck out a LOT of moisture as well as nutrients, and once those shallow tiny fibrous roots are gone, the conditions should improve a lot. In fact, the decaying roots should add a lot of air spaces and voids to the soil.

Thanks for the diagram. The roots of the remaining maple are likely already where you would want to plant and if you amend the soil they will seek out that area in earnest.

tj

I've got about ten Norway maples and the more that I read about how aggressive it is - both roots and water and everything else - the more I want to thin the herd.

Out of curiosity, has anyone else noticed that there are fewer worms (both earthworms and red wriggler types) in soil around l aggressive maples? In my area where usually I can find a lot, particularly in and around compost piles, the part of my lot with Norwegian maples seems to have almost none. Not zero but few.

I just spent a half hour pulling up maple shoots. They sure are hardy bastards. Takes some effort to uproot even tiny ones.

armoured, mulching is something I would be willing to try. I think it could help somewhat. I have found birches to be bad for surface roots also. But maples are generally larger so that makes them even worse. You have 10 Norway maples? I guess it really depends on where they are located and what you want to do with the land. They can get huge! One of my neighbors has one in their yard. They planted some kind of columnar tree not that far away from it. I predict those trees will not thrive due to the roots and lack of sunlight. We'll see.

Jenn, I can understand that your grass would get brown and dried out due to sun exposure and lack of moisture. Trees can really help in that regard! If it were my property, I would plant a tree or two---making sure they do not have a mass of surface roots. If they could provide dappled shade, that would be great! I would also plant one sooner rather than later. "planting under or nearly under a tree is what my mom calls "an exercise in futility" I love that! Removing the tree won't give our property an unbalanced look, I think.

toxcrusadr, great idea to trench. I love hearing that "once those shallow tiny fibrous roots are gone, the conditions should improve a lot."

tsugajunkie, I understand that you are saying that roots of the remaining tree will seek out my new planting area. But this is how I see it: right now I have a double load of roots in my backyard. If one tree is removed, there must be a lot less roots. Right? Secondly, I read in a book that tree roots are not necessarily spread out evenly around the tree. There would probably be more roots in areas where there is more moisture on the property. So for my backyard, the property drains to the back of the property towards the left far side. That, in fact, is where the roots are the worst. So if I keep to the right side (where the tree would be removed), the soil may improve due to loss of roots from the removed tree.

@newhostalady - I am guessing these maples are mostly between 15 and 25 years old but only a guess. Not very large but a couple getting there; most have pretty modest trunks. I find the soil around the birches less prone to the issues I mentioned. But the obvious difference is that the canopy of the maples is incredibly dense, the branch and leaf production impressive and just massive.

I had an experienced arborist tell me that if I was willing to keep the tree, he would come to my property and give me some information as to what I could do to help my garden grow and improve my soil. I told him I preferred to have the tree removed. So he didn't come.

I have to wonder what he would have said. Perhaps he would recommend the gypsum? I feel the more compost I put in (but really---how much can you add without practically burying the plants!) and if I were to use more fertilizer, the more the trees would use. Still little left for the garden plants. But, I had a thought---what about foliar sprays? If I just spray the garden plants regularly, won't they then get some direct benefit without the tree hogging it all?

The gypsum myth never seems to die.

Gypsum has a positive effect only if the soil is sodic (has a high sodium content). To apply it in hopes of improving clay soils in general is a waste of money and time and may even cause an imbalance in the soil.

I will say that gypsum can be be a real plant saver when a native soil is naturally sodic, and in cases of salt water storm flooding, in salt water intrusion into ground water, and when irrigation water comes from a sodic well or other water source.

I do not think my soil would have a high sodium content. So back to the drawing board!

I have heard that adding sand, coarse builder's sand or greensand, improves texture of clay soil. But what I wonder is whether adding something a little coarser like chicken grit would loosen up the soil. And how long it would last.

Rhizo's comments led me to do a little reading and it appears the poster is quite correct. My experience is in farming & agriculture and I've had trouble with salts in my soil and irrigation water, especially during dry periods. I send soil samples to labs yearly. My experience is not with typical gardening in an urban yard. Here's an article on the myth and reality of gypsum:

https://cals.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/gypsum.html

This article nixes your sand idea (also talks gypsum):

https://www.progress-index.com/article/20150309/NEWS/150309694

It looks like adding organic matter is your best option. But, seemingly with all soil amendments, it'll take time and repeated action.

From what I have read and personally experienced, amending a planting hole to make a cozy nest for a desired plant isn't going to work. The maples are just going to go into that area and overpower. They are bigger than you are.

The usual recommended method is to give the desired plants a head start ONLY. The way to do this is to plant small plants in soil added on top of the maple roots. Then, the plantings have a head start before the maple roots colonize the new soil. That is all you want to give them. You are limited to plants that can handle dryish shade, but that is a start.

I'm looking for a tree that, fully grown, gets around 30' tall-ish and has a balanced form in height and width of the canopy. The plan is to get a tree that is already several years old from a large local nursery with a 'tree yard' so they can have everything from 18" baby trees to older larger ones carefully looked after over the winters and growing well enough to survive a transplanting. Honestly I want a maple, it's not like I have to worry about other plants dying from too much shade/not enough water, where it will be planted. Put it in far enough from the house for those roots to have 'room to run' safely without being too close to the structure (our basement isn't a walkout, some of the other homes in our neighborhood do have walkouts though - still don't want a tree growing a foot away from the wall!)...

The guys who do the lawn care here keep the grass green and manicured, I just *hate* endless grass lawns. (We moved from SoCal where being conscious of and conservative with irrigation is second nature and using natives/drought&heat tolerant species is heavily promoted - to Omaha Nebraska, land of expansive residential lawns, winter snow, and home of the Huskers lol.) Getting a tree planted to shade the western side of our house will be pretty much *the* landscaping there, but the back/northern side where it's quite shady because of the deck and the directional facing will be where I start planting a shade garden and use it to hide the great big a/c unit sitting out there on its concrete pad (ferns, stuff like that), along with container plantings on the deck itself using plants that tolerate the sun/shade. The eastern side of our house is very close to the neighbors and the meters to underground utilities/water lines from the street connector for both they and ourselves run through there. But these are the main reasons why it's impractical to plant on the eastern facing side.

You can try to plant the ground around the canopy shade perimeter (the extent to where the canopy shade is cast, at it's height) but you'd have to be seriously vigilant about keeping the canopy trimmed and within that perimeter.

If you want shade, a maple may be a good choice. Check with local sources to see what type of maple is local though. You may want to consider another tree or two to hedge your bets. I'm partial to apple trees.

If you throw down 1” 50/50 compost and top soil and then mulch you’ll easily be able to plant dry shade perennials.

I can’t show you how many examples of this with large collections of host growing in the large canopy of mature silver and Norway maples. The feeder roots from these trees aren’t in this space.

mntreegrower, thanks for the links. I did read them. Gypsum and sand do not seem to be the answer (loosening up clay soil). Back to using organic matter.

mad_gallica, I understand what you are saying about amending soil in one area only. I agree that it just makes it another target area for maple roots to aim for. Because of the size of my trees and the mere 20 feet between them, the planting of a smaller plant between maple roots does not work. The maple roots grow into the area and encircle each plant. Most of my plants do not grow anywhere near to their potential size. Depressing. That's one reason I want one tree removed---to get more sunlight, and have less roots.

Jenn, maple trees are beautiful if planted in the proper place. Looks like you have given it a lot of consideration. Along with not planting near structures/foundations is to preserve the foundation from any potential damage, but also to keep tree debris from the eavestrough. With my two trees, it seems like an endless, thankless job to repeatedly remove dried flowers, leaves and maple keys from plugging the eavestrough. You would think that the keys and leaves would only fall during certain periods---but NOT. It seems endless. My backyard always has a "messy" look. Small problems, become big problems are the tree matures and grows larger.

whaas, "If you throw down 1” 50/50 compost and top soil and then mulch you’ll easily be able to plant dry shade perennials." Sorry, but I've lived here long enough to know that doesn't work. I have been using spinout bags with some success.

We're already been putting down at least 1 inch of compost each year. I would love to put down more (3, 4 inches) but that would be too high for the perennials. But should I be putting down 1" of compost, say in spring, then 1 inch again in the summer and 1 inch in the fall? Wow, that would be a lot of work!