I think you're right on the money! Tilling an area once or twice initally in order to incorporate amendments is perfectly fine. It's the annual or seasonal tilling that disturbs the soil channels and aggregates that are an essential part of what makes a soil system a SYSTEM.

ATTRA is a good source of well-written explanations about the different varieties of conservation tillage. I'd suggest reading the link below.

All the best,
-Patrick

Here is a link that might be useful: ATTRA on Conservation Tillage

Thank you, but my yard is somewhat smaller than a farm and most of the area I plant is for ornamentals like Palm trees, bananas, yuccas, cannas and elephant ears. You would need to be growing crops for most of the information on that site.

Respectfully, The_Virginian, the reasons for conservation tillage are the same whether one is gardening on a 2' x 2' square foot garden, or farming multiple sections of prime Prairie wheatfields.

In your original post, you asked (in part) "...some gardeners think tilling soil with soil amendments is not a good idea since it "disturbs" the soil too much reducing microbal and fauna activity. How can this be..."

The ATTRA site I linked to has some answers to your questions. You can find other answers in the Soil Forum FAQ, "Creating A New Bed Without Tilling".

All the best,
-Patrick

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Forum FAQs

If you must till, and you have a smaller area, why not use a spading fork instead of a 2 cycle tiller? Less pollution.


John

That would mean I wasn't helping the GW cycle along as ALGORE has demonstrated to the World. I wish it would heat up a zone or two in my area so I could have more types of hardy bananas and palms! Now where is that Mantis Tiller, I want to pour some more heavy used oil in it with aviation gasoline to really mak'er smoke! LOL! Seriously though, my back won't hold out if I try doing it by hand and the Mantis has been a real Godsend since it can do the work of 5 men in half the time for tilling.

the_virginian, IÂm just jerking your chain. I have read some of your other posts. I agree with you on global warming. I had to give up my little Honda tiller (similar to Mantis) because of my back. My solution is IÂm converting to SF, raised bed, no till gardening. I hope IÂm not making a mistake because I always have had a large harvest in the past.


John

One of the worst side affects of over tilling is that a sort of greasy hardpan forms at the bottom of where the tines reach.

tj

When you till soil in addition to working in organic matter and maybe, if needed, other soil amendments you also entrain air in the soil, too much air. After tilling you are supposed to allow the soil to settle, allow that excess air to escape, before planting. This excess air in the soil can stumulate the Soil Food Web to get busy and rapidly digest the organic matter in your soil, far faster than is necessary and/or required.
I would not say that there is never any reason to till soil but mostly it is unneeded, especially once the soil has been tilled and a sufficient quantity of organic matter has been added to that soil and the soil is now in good tilth.

jbest123: I know you were funn'n with me as I was with you! LOL! I purchased mine to help save my back as I was doing all this stuff by hand and what a difference to me it has made.

kimmsr: I like to water every bed I till in really well before mulching and planting to keep air pockets to a minimum. It seems to work very well and if it rains really hard after I have done that, mores the better! I really only till a bed once and then after I layer for the most part, plus who wants to do work you really don't have to do?

My dad used to have heavy duty tiller that I had played with as a kid. It was interesting to see that after my dad passed away after many years of amendments mainly compost (and that infamous fresh horse manure; I highly doubt my dad knew what he was doing but that was 20 years ago), the ground settled and grass grew in very quickly and to my surprise, it is the lowest spot of the backyard. It used to be maybe 8 inches high after it was tilled (once or twice a year for so long). I also remember my dad watering it often. There was no mulch and my dad would make me pull out weeds. I hated it. If I were to have my own garden, I would do things very differently. It would be no till garden type with a lot of mulches around them to conserve water.

"One of the worst side affects of over tilling is that a sort of greasy hardpan forms at the bottom of where the tines reach."

I have read about this here and there but never actually seen it with my own eyes. I've used a tiller for years, mostly to turn sod into garden.

Hardpan isnÂt much of a problem using a tiller. The hardpan is developed when using a plow. The bottoms of the share and landslide have a downward force on them produced by the weight of the furrow on the moldboard. This downward force and the sliding act like a finishing trowel on concrete.


John

Plow sole can happen if the soil is tilled too wet and the soil is always tilled at the same depth, just as it can happen with the moldboard plow. If you were to search the internet you would get some 280,000 hits on "Plow Sole".

I have read the text books/Earticles (not all). I am speaking from experience. I have spent many hours tilling with moldboards and all sizes of roto tillers. And the sub surface of a furrow is in no way in Gods world the same as the sub surface of the area tilled with a roto tiller. This fall I dug out an area 8ft X 8ft X 24in of garden space for a greenhouse. I had tilled this area with a roto tiller for 30 yrs. Now I wish I had taken a photo, the top 8ins looked exactly like the bottom 8ins of a 24in wall, you would have thought that it had never been tilled let alone tons of compost added.


John

Organic material breaks down and is used by plants and all in the soil if it is not replenished. That's why after tilling in organic matter it is important to layer new material down each year. My soil is much healthier, but I mulch and fertilize with Milorganite every year.

ok, I'm going to beet, er uh beat my drum again.
first, soil naturally develops a structure. This structure consists of horizons, of layers. here is a link that shows what I mean.
http://www.mo15.nrcs.usda.gov/features/gallery/gallery.html
These horizons are good and normal in a healthy soil. Each layer reacts with sunlight, organic matter, air, and water in different and important ways. When you till you destroy this structure.
I started no till, mulch layer gardening 30 years ago and strongly recomend it. Some people call it by the new popular name lasagna gardening (referring to the layers) Not to mention it's a whole lot less work!
Put lots of mulch on top the soil, pull back the mulch to plant the seeds in the soil and watch it grow.
In 2 years time, your soil will heal and you will have the horizons that I'm talking about. and wonderful healthy plants.

While pulling back the mulch to plant may work fine in southern areas and on some crops in northern areas, I wonder how well this would work for watermelons, cantaloupe, and some other high-heat requiring crops in more northern areas. ...And I don't mean getting some mature fruits late in the season but rather July melons.

I think in general we are in agreement that the way to go is the layering approach to adding organic material. I do this after I Mantis till the bed initially, and I do see better results when I till in organic material first. I do not advocate tilling an area that has been planted every year as not only will the soil be disturbed, but you may do serious damage to the plant's root system.

Great thread! I was thinking of buying one of those Mantis tillers.

IMO Mantis does make a great tiller. I have had mine for about 14 years and it is still working fine.
Tom