Apparently I'm mistaken and PA is a zone 7. From some quick reading Kentucky bluegrasses seem to be highly recommended. How commonly are Midnight and the other wellknown highly rated KGB's offered at garden centers?

Okay, please twist my arm and tell me this blend is worth the wait:

3-D SOD BLEND
Darker, Denser, Dwarfer,100% Super Elite Kentucky Bluegrass.
40% MIDNIGHT STAR Kentucky Bluegrass
30% BEDAZZLED Kentucky Bluegrass
30% BOUTIQUE Kentucky Bluegrass

While my lawn will look bad for the next week or so I'd be willing to wait if you think this is going to be superior to anything I'd buy locally, and that I'll still have enough time to get the seed healthy before the first frost....

From what I'm told, you're probably running out of time to plant KBG now...in fact, it may already be too late, especially if you have to mail order seed. I was planning on dormant seeding some TTTF/KBG mixture but it looks like a lot of rain is coming our way so I think I'm going to throw down some TTTF seed tomorrow and hope for the best. Will also do a dormant seeding. Are you anywhere near Exton? There's a place there that sells better-than-the-big-box-stores seeds.

Thanks for the response. I'm actually about 35min from Exton. If you could let me know the nursery/store I'd be greatful as I'm definitely aware of the time running out. Last year I got lucky and we had a very mild start to the winter (think it hit 70F once in Dec if I remember correctly) and so my overseeding of another part of the lawn went great (and I didn't start until OCTOBER!).

On Summit's site they say they can offer expedited shipping but that wasn't an option when I did a test checkout. I'm also a bit peeved shipping for a 5lb bag of seed was $18. That's a bit expensive for ground service IMO. But unless I can get a similar blend from this place in Exton I think it's my only hope. My garden centers in Havertown are limited to say the least and overpriced....

Thanks again (I'm about 10min from biting the bullet and ordering the seed from Summit to avoid another day delay). Right now I figure I *MIGHT* see the seed by Friday/Sat if I order ASAP.

The Company is called Fisher and Son...they cater to golf courses, professional landscapers etc. They have a full listing of their seed varieties online but I'd call ahead to make what you want is in stock. They don't seem to carry many of the top varieties in the recent trials but do have some decent seed. I was looking at the Winning Colors TTTF and Winning Colors Plus (with KBG).

seven,

Thanks for the response but I got worried last night that I was going to wait and be completely out of time for planting. Around 30min after my last post I just decided to order from Summit and hope for the best. I ended up getting their 3D blend which consists of Midnight/Bedazzled/Boutique. I'm hoping that combination works well in my yard, but I have a bit of concern underneath the tree. I have to do more research (or get some opinions on here) but may not completely tear up the grass underneath the tree, but rather heavily core aerate and pseudo-overseed.

I ordered 5lbs which should give me plently left over for the next season if I need to overseed (~1200sq ft yard), or if it looks fantastic, to rip up the remaining grass and go fully with the 3D blend.

I called this morning to inquire about quicker shipping but they estimated my delivery of Thursday or Friday (latest) for ground shipping. I was quite shocked as I expected it to take much longer going from IL to PA, but I'm not complaining.

As it is now my goal is to have everything prepped and ready for Thursday and hope our rain forecast is either wrong, or very slight. Right now about 1/3 of my lawn is dirt and a heavy rain would be ugly...

Is anyone familiar with Mountain View Seeds and their Titanium, Firecracker, Spyder Lateral Spread seed. I read one message stating they could buy it from this company but I have been told they don't sell small quatities (100 lbs). Does anyone know another company/business that may sell this product or does anyone reccomend a superior fescue for eastern NC. THanks

FM Brown in Reading, PA sells the lateral spread fescues at a very reasonable price. I've been told that these fescues will spread but nowhere near the rate that KBG spreads and they spread better in lighter, less compact soil.

seven333,

Do you think KBG (the blend I got described above) has a chance at outcompeting my zoysia? I'm trying (by hand) to rip out my yard but it's slow going and I doubt I'll be able to do it all before I seed on Thursday. The areas I can't my hope is to heavily core aerate, but it would be great if the KGB could do to the zoysia what the zoysia typically does to other grasses.

The only thing I know about zoysia is that it's very flammable when dormant...let's just say my dad liked experimenting ;)
It's slower to spread than KBG from what I've read but completely eradicating it would probably be very difficult. Could you RU the zoysia? I thought I've heard of people using RU and seeding later that day or even the next day.

Sounds like you are trying to do your homework. I live in Northwest PA (right on lake which reduces the early nightine frosts untill the water freezes over). I did a complete renovation of my front yard 4 years back with 100% KBG (Midnight/Moonlight/Bedazzled I think). I seeded Labor day then watered and waited for, well FOREVER. I will try to dig up some of my progress notes/posts from this site but it was something like 4 weeks untill it was really coming in. Because of the slow KBG and compost topdressing added (which i later found out had extra weed seeds) my lawn had me worried going into late fall/winter.

The great news is that the weeds were easity taken out next sprong with WBG Max and the Kentucky Blue Grass continued to thicken the entire next year with water and fertilizer. I used mostly Milorgranite but synthetic early and Late.

My issue now is that I let it start to slip into dromancy without much rain the past 3 weeks. Especially near a Maple tree which probably is hoging the water. I did add some fine fescue (see BillHill's posts) to blend into my shadier portion of the lawn.

Good luck with your plan. If I were you I would get that KBG down ASAP and keep it watered. Just be patient! it will take a long time to get established but you will be OK.
Sorry I don't have any experience with zoysia.
Good Luck - keep us posted

Once it gets cold and the zoysia goes completely dormant I belive you can spray roundup and just kill all the weeds instead of bothering with other grasses.

Well I got my seed down in the dark last night. I put the seed down (took about 6 passes for some reason, which I guess is good but I walked about a mile just on the seed), then put down the starter fertilizer (I just used Scotts Starter from Home Depot), then sprinkled a very fine layer of peat moss down. Then I used a 50lb roller (my daughter's moonbounce in it's sleeping-bag like sack) and when over the entire yard twice to get better seed/soil contact.

Then I watered, or tried to water. I think my neighbor broke my sprinkler because water was shooting out all of the holes and it has 3 separate heads so burrowed a hole in the center of the yard. So I quickly killed that idea and proceeded to water by hand with a flashlight at 10pm.

This morning I got up for work and watered in the dark, so when I get home today I'll be able to clearly see how bad of a job I did.

Thanks for everyone's advice and I'll post up some pictures when my wife gets home with the camera.

Hey wjs1234, I saw your post regarding the lateral spread TTTF from Mountain View Seeds. I purchased a 50 lb bag of the Firecracker LS from FM Brown this summer (90 dollars, and that included shipping). I didn't need more than 20 lbs but I really wanted to try this new variety, and it is testing very well on the NTEP. I used it mainly in a mix, but I also planted a small 65 sq. ft. area of just the Firecracker. I planted it on 9/3. You could see the seedlings six days later. I measured it last night, at the two week mark and it is about 2-2.5 inches already, and a beautiful shade of green that I believe will darken as it matures. I am also seeing some very short new seedlings. I don't know if this is seed that just took longer, tillering, or actual spreading, but it is very encouraging. It is the best fescue I have ever used in terms of early germination and growth. The ongoing NTEP for your region now has all three of the LS seeds near the top of the mean turfgrass rating (there is only .2 difference between the cultivars) so any one of the three would be a good choice. Look at the other categories however as I believe the Titanium and Spyder did better in the shade tests, but that was in IL, so the data might not be applicable to NC, or if that is even a factor for you. I am not sure how much you need but for 100 bucks you get a lot of seed, and I think it is worth it.

Well I'm starting to get nervous. Today was our first really cold night (low 40's I belive), but more importantly this entire week is showing HIGHS in the 50's and low 60's with the nights get really close to possible frost (I don't trust more than 24hrs of forecasts). My new KGB lawn has come in VERY slowly and very thin even though I used a drop spreader and did a million passes over the lawn on a lower setting to ensure there wasn't any missed or unevenly laid seed. I feel like now I'm finally getting somewhere (grass is about 1/2-3/4"), and every extra sunny day I can get is going to prevent a mudpit.

Can someone comment on how KGB typically grows when [B]young[/B]? Does it readily thicken up when small or just send up single blades until it establishes better roots?

I was really hopeful early on as I had frozen the seed prior to putting down and saw signs of germination at day 8. This was quickly hampered by the realization that it was onion grass I must have stirred up after it continued to grow very quickly and thickly. I still do think some of the grass germinated much faster than the rest as I seeded a small planter for an indoor grass grazing for our 2 cats, and pre-germinated the seeds in a damp paper towel and again the seeds sprouted in slightly over a week. Of course that planter looks great after only a week of growing (~1 week once planted in the soil).

So basically calm my fears with some detailed growth info! Please! :)

KBG is very slow to get started. It takes about 3 weeks just to germinate. Then it sends out shoots to start photosynthesizing. These typically stay pretty short for quite a while. Some people don't even get grass tall enough to mow with a fall seeding.

Once the grass sprouts, KBG concentrates on establishing roots. Once it has good roots in place, it will start to grow taller.

It will usually not start spreading until it has gotten tall enough to be mowed a time or two.

That could well be next spring.

Pardon me Engima, but seeing as how zoysia is considered a southern grass, what made you think it would do well in southern Pennsylvania.
I am aware that your area might be considered a "transitional" zone....meaning areas across the country from the coast westward enclosing the states of W.Va, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee.....that area, can use a warm season and/or a cool season type grass, even combining them where thought viable.
But, being a warm-season grass, what made you think zoysia would be the grass for you.

The attributes of that grass aside, like how it is able to stand up to drought, that ability would only apply if your area of Pa did not receive adequate rainfall. I don't think that applies. So why zoysia.

You quoted three varieties of Kentucky Bluegrass.
Was this recommended by someone in the know.

My own thinking on what makes a good grass (and a good lawn) is to plant for whatever nature throws at you in the area you reside.
In northern zones thus, a combo of K.B., with added fescue and ryegrass is considered a good idea.
Each gives its best when situations arrive.
Fescue is good for shade, kentucky blue for sun, ryegrass for standing up to rough treatment such as heavy traffic.

To depend on one type of grass has its own set of rules.
If something that goes against the K.B.'s happens, then you are 'up the creek' sort of.

Instead of believing tha Lowes or Home Depot does not stock good quality grasses, why not speak to a nurseryman about what grasses do well for a home's lawn in your vicinity. Then compare what they have and whether you can buy that particular blend (or not a blend) in the other stores. Usually, one person has a bad experience with what has been bought at the box store, and then makes a most definite opinion that the stores only stock poor grades of grasses.
Stores don't usually go out of their way to sell to patrons that which will not invite them back again.
Stores deal with suppliers....the same as how some nurseries do.

Grass, for the most part, depends on how it is taken care of. There are, however, good quality seeds as well as poor ones. The quick grasses do not usually stand up well to heat of summer or drought that happens irregularly.
The good quality grasses can take the heat of the kitchen and bounce back when conditions get better. The other stuff dies quickly.

So whatever grass you do buy, buy the best you can afford.

Grass can be encouraged to be lusher and thereby stand up to adversity when it happens.
But grass will not grow if the soil does not welcome it.

So enrich your soil, make the grass want to stick around.

Every fall, put a 1/2" - 1" layer of compost or good topsoil over the lawn. Do an overseeding, whether you believe the lawn needs it or not. The more lush you make the lawn, the better it can put up with what can attack it...including grubs.
But grubs pretty soon will be going south (deeper) for the winter. The time to take up with them is in the spring when the larvae from this season's population come up for air.

In the spring, put a layer 1/2" - 1" of compost (or good topsoil) over the lawn and let it grow up through it.
Do this early, as soon as the frost has left the ground.

The fall/spring ritual of putting down this layer of topsoil should be considered one of the things to do EVERY YEAR.
Winter takes a lot out a lawn..so whatever you can do to enrich the soil the better your lawn will grow.
Fertilize regularly---but not too often. Fertilizer can feed the soil and what grows in it.....but do it too much and it will cause short stubby roots, over nitrogenize and otherwise cause poor growth instead of pushing it.

It does appear you have a job to do to change over your zoysia to something else....and you may be not making a good choice of change.

I'm curious what your neighbors have done --is everybody in your neighborhood growing zoysia and what is their thinking of it.
Reading about it, it does appear it has a lot going for it....and a lot not going for it.
Generally it is for more southern areas....not particularly suited for where the snow flies.

Thank you for the response. I had a sneaky suspicion the grass may just behave a bit differently than I'm used to seeing (shoots sprout up fairly quickly and continue to do so). I had high hopes for the lawn since my freeze/thaw prior to seeding resulted in some sprouts germinating faster than the expected 14-21 days. I'm still probably going to freak out if I don't get any cover during the winter. Right now the lawn looks pretty much barren with the occasional tuft of onion grass or wheat/straw plant.

We are getting near the end of the cool temps and are probably within a week or two of a frost. I'm hoping for an extended fall but so far my luck hasn't been the best (heavy rains for almost a month are what originally delayed my seeding).

Thank you again.

Jeannie7, I find your post very odd (and somewhat condescending). You comment about a month after I originally posted this, purchased seed, and seeded, so I'll assume you didn't read the other dozen posts after my original one.

To comment specifically in regards to your post my neighborhood has many zoysia lawns. In fact it is likely the non-zoysia lawns are probably owners that decided to rid themselves (or try) and reseed with a different grass. There are several houses with show-quality lawns exclusively comprised of zoysia. Zoysia, when properly maintained (see below), is extremely good at removing competition, both in the form of weeds and other grasses. (My next door neighbor who's lawn shares ours learned this the hard way as in the last 2 years her newly seeded fescue has lost about 30% of her yard to my zoysia). It has a very thick growth, and will choke out the soil surface. It is also extremely drought and traffic tolerant, and looks quite nice when mowed at lower than probably healthy levels.

The problem of course is it is brown for several months of the year, and due to this dormancy is extremely difficult to maintain organically. When we first moved in the lawn was about the nicest on the block and I maintained it well for about 3 years. Then we had my daughter and I decided for her health that I wanted to rid the chemicals I was using to make it look so nice. When you have a dormant grass, pre-M's and fall chemicals are a way of life. The problems started once I switched away from using the harsh chemicals as now in the spring the weeds found small gaps to enter, and over the last couple years (along with extra foot traffic from my child) has added to the problems. Clover began to encroach and take over slowly choking out the zoysia and allowing for other weeds to take hold. The final straw was the last 2 years. We had a relatively wet summer in 08 and this year was the largest amount of continual moisture I've ever seen. I did not have to water the grass a single time the ENTIRE YEAR. The zoysia does great when it can out-survive during minor droughts, and without those the last 2 years it was a losing battle.

Ever since we moved into the house I have pondered why on earth the neighborhood lawns had zoysia. It is not a native grass, and with it being brown 4-5 months out of the year it is somewhat of an eyesore (though a completely brown lawn cut short looks nice to me, but it has to be completely brown, weed patches and other grasses just make it look horrible). So I finally convinced myself it was time to replace what I had wanted to do all these years.

I'm glad it all turned out for you......and I think we're both long-winded.

I re-read what I posted.....and got tired before I finished.
Then I read yours.........ZZZZZZZZZZ