There have been many, many discussions about till vs. no till which you should be able to find. No-tillers hold the line that tilling destroys soil structure, breaks down fungal hyphae, is detrimental to soil life. Those on the other side of the fence hold to the views you propose. I have been happy with my lasagna gardens, as have many other gardeners.

You mentioned "I am a big believer in lasagne soil amending after a bed has been establish and never re-till an area that has plantings in it ..." Have you ever tried a lasagna from the get-go? Just smother the lawn or whatever exists there with cardboard and build up? If not, this is as good a time as any to give it a try and make up your mind based on your own results. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Karen

My question is can you really get the same level of performance if just starting with the layering or lasange method?

Define "perfomance"? Production, disease, pests, maintenance required, return per square foot, cost per square foot, etc.?

In truth, it would be comparing apples to oranges. Just like container gardening or square foot gardening, lasagna gardening has its place and can be quite productive. All the different approaches have their strengths and weaknesses.

But just like those other approaches, lasagna gardening is very different in terms of components, use, maintenance requirements, and methodology from traditional in-ground gardening - be that garden till or no-till. And "performance" is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

Dave

I think the answer is "it depends". All the arguments against tilling apply only if tilling is done on a regular basis - a one time shot has virtually no detrimental effect and it is a very efficient and fast way to incorporate needed soil amendments over a large area.

As Dave has alluded to, lasagna gardening or whatever one chooses to call it, also it has its purpose and its benefits. But if time is a factor, for the landscape or planting beds for ornamentals, I'd go with tilling first. The primary drawback of lasgana gardening or layered/sheet composting is the shrinkage of the large amounts of organic matter involved. While this may be tolerable for annuals like most edible crops or shallowly rooted perennials, it is not a good planting situation for shrubs and trees unless you have the luxury of waiting several seasons until you build up a relatively stable level of "soil". And these types of plants seldom benefit from the high levels of OM in the soil that temporary, fast growing, rapidly harvested crops do.

As gardengal said, "It depends". Some soils may require tilling once, to get organic matter in the soil so the Soil Food Web will get to work. Most soils, however, can simply have organic matter piled on and the Soil Food Web will move that stuff into the soil far better than tilling ever will. The humus level in sandy soils will build up faster if the organic matter is not tilled in because tilling incorporates so much air the bacteria diligently digest the organic matter leaving little for the future.

I have tried both and by performance I mean vigorous growth in the first season. For example, I planted several palm trees in my garden, Windmill Palms, Needle Palms and Dwarf Palmettos. All of them seemed to grow faster and take the winter cold better in their first season after being planted in the tilled beds. Those that were planted directly in the red clay and had organic matter and mulch layered with the lasagne method, took longer to get established and did not put on the growth that the other palms did in their first and second years of being planted. Most plants also looked better with tilling like my hardy bananas and gardenias. Now, having said that, in beds that were started as lasange, and after 2-3 seasons of being mulched and having shredded leaves with compost laid down, looked just about as good as the same soil that was initially tilled. One thing that seems to be a constant is to always be adding organic matter and yes, it is easy to let the worms and other critters do the work for you if you have the time.

I no longer believe in tilling, but I used to till and I liked the results. I never tilled like my former husband---as row weed control. I've used deep mulches since 1975. After the spring tilling, I mulched, and that got turned into the soil the following spring. I haven't tilled since 1990, but I remember it fondly.

I've got to say I was pretty horrified to have my cousin show up here last year and before I could say a word, he dropped his tines and drove his tractor/tiller into my three foot deep lasagna bed and left wide, crushed deep gashes in the bed I had been excitedly anticipating---one that was located on a beautiful piece of former lawn. I essentially feel that that patch has now been permanently ruined. 70 years of topsoil crushed. He didn't do as much harm as he could have, because when he hit the invisible stump of the huge, old, maple tree I made the lasagna bed around, he quit.

I did a small lasagna bed last year and planted basil and tomato plants. Just recently, I dug into the ground to see what, if anything, had changed. Nothing. Still clay, and no beneficial organisms at all.

This morning I went out to do a perc test where I am building a new garden bed, as well as where I have an existing bed. It looks as if the water in one spot went down half an inch in an hour. The other spot doesn't look like anything happened.

All this being said, I am going to till my garden this year.

Very often people will start with a soil that has taken years to get into the terrible condition it is in and expect that piling on some organic matter will correct that within a year, and that simply will not happen. Even tilling in organic matter will not change that soil that soon. Then, again, someone may have a soil, most often clay, that needs organic matter tilled in since there is something that prevents the Soil Food Web from crossing the interface of the soil and the organic matter, they just will not. But if the soil is in such condition that there is no Soil Food Web then it will need organic matter tilled in initially to provide the organisms that will to the work in the soil feeding the plants that grow there.
One indication that you may have a problematic soil would be the number of earthworms in that soil.

In my experience it depends upon the soil condition. If there is extreme compaction it may take many years of surface applications of organic material to improve the soil structure. In that case I prefer to dig the beds to a spade depth to alleviate the compaction and allow roots to penetrate the soil more deeply.

I thought that if you dug a hole in compacted dirt, like clay, put OM into it and planted a plant, the roots would spread to the OM then once it hit the clay, it would not survive. Especially since the clay holds water, all the roots would get water logged (which happened to me last year).

I am opting to till so I can get some good amendments into the clay. I know that amendments will need to be added continuously to obtain good soil, but I won't be able to dig deep enough into the ground. I tried yesterday and it was a struggle.

In my case, there are absolutely NO organisms in the clay. I have a non-existant Soil Food Web. Trying to correct that, although I do know it will take time.

I started my garden four years ago by peeling the topsoil and removing a concrete plug that once held a clothesline. I only had 4" of topsoil over red clay of 10" then grey clay as deep as deep could be. I added a truckload of compost, sand and topsoil along with bags of leaves, various organic nutrients and till the heck out of it. Everything grew fine, but the soil still compacted quickly. I continue to add mulch, compost and a few select nutrients every year and deep tilled the second year as well. Last year, I just added compost and leaves and grass as mulch. Tilled just the top 6" or so, then more compost and mulches. This year, I am not tilling at all, just will hand turn if needed and more mulches and compost. I think every garden is slightly different. What Kimmsr says makes alot of sense, and what others says does too. Once you build up your soil, there is really no need to do anything but add compost and mulch, and it continues to thrive. I do add about a 4" layer all over from my organic containers every year as well in the early winter. I can dig down over a foot with my hands and there are thousands of nightcrawlers and redworms as well. I also leave all my roots in to breakdown on their own. Sound about right Kimm?

rootdoctor, that sounds about right, the plants roots also add organic matter.
If you never do something (like walk on your planting bed) so the soil does not become compacted there is no good reason to till it. How often does one till a perennial bed? If that perennial bed is, properly, covered with a good mulch the soil stays very workable, but if that soil is not covered with mulch and looses organic matter that soil can become compacted and hard to work.