QF - I have not wicked AVs yet, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

I've been growing veggies in containers for several years. I've had trouble with my mix being too wet and it causing problems. When you water by hand, you know when to water. If your mix is too "slow" (dries out slowly, drains slowly), it's not an issue as much because you control how much you water and how often you water.

If your mix is too slow and you wick? Definite problems.

There is an incredibly rich groups of threads in the Container forum here. They are about soils, perched water tables, etc. After spending awhile reading them (and I highly recommend anyone growing anything should read them), going over them again and again, I've come to the conclusion that I am going to try wicking my AVs, but I'm not going to use a 1:1:1.

I am going to use a much faster mix made of bark fines, peat and perlite - 5:1:1 or 5:2:2. I'll probably try both first. I may also try a mix of bark fines, Turface, and granite to compare.

I haven't a clue as to what might work better. I just keep reading about how many people have difficulty with their peat based mixes with AVs. People like you have figured out how to work with it, but other people cannot. They are over watering and the characteristics of the peat make it hard for the plant to handle it. I want to see if there is something else that might prevent those problems.

Again, take this as the ramblings of someone who has NOT done this with AVs yet. I'm just applying scientific principles to AVs and it should work. But, I have not proof yet.

Hi Sweet Pea and Quinn -

the bark wouldn't work on wicks. In a constantly moist soil it will rot fast, change the Ph of the mix etc.

1:1:1 mix - peat, perlite, vermiculite is so far the best. I do not know about granite.

I grow on a communal trays on wicks and mats. Got burned more than once with a spread of bugs - just as Fred predicted. So I do not put anything new on a tray. New arrivals go to the new tray - after isolation, repotting etc.

If you get the cheap black trays (10x20") - you can put a mat and plants and just water the mat. This way you wouldn't increase the height. Better to put a layer of eggshell grid - fluorescent lights supply in HD - cut it to size - pruners work on it - cover with matting - cheap throw from Walgreens can be cut in 8 pieces - and put the plants on - this way you increase the height for less than 1" and you have some capacity for water - just add water so it is lower than a mat.

Wicking - if you use the mat- most of the water just comes through direct contact of mat and soil, so the wick is supplemental. You can use a 18 grade mason twine from HD.
To reduce the water intake - I put a layer of coarse perlite in a bottom - so the pot has some air getting to the roots as well. I just used some strange pots with holes in some kind of indentation. The soil stays too dry unless I use acrilic yarn as wick - it is really a water pump.

You see - every technique requires some adjustment. Fred's is much more sanitary - and you do not need to refill the deli containers that often. But = if your space is tight and you need an additional source of humidity - this approach cam work for you.

Good luck

irina

Don't wick every plant at once. Do a couple and see how it goes and if all seems well after a while, do some more.

tish

Hi Jane,
I wick water. As a matter of fact, I have those little minis you sent me on wicks. You'll need a very light mix and as one of the other posters mentioned perlite in the bottom of the pot is a good idea. I like it because I am a busy underwaterer. If your mix is light, there is no chance that they will be soggy because through capillary action they will only take up as much water as they need. I use acrylic yarn as wicking material. Two strands for semi minis. You'll have to improvise and find reservoirs that will fit on your shelves. I like it because the plants are getting consistent fertilizer, water and other nutrients. The down side is the reservoirs may develop algae but as far as I can see that's the only down side

Hi again,
If you are worried about how the algae looks in your reservoirs all you have to do is clean it. OR.........being the lazy person that I am, I line the reservoirs with plastic sandwich baggies and when the algae becomes too yucky I just toss out the baggie and insert a new one saving me the chore of scrubbing the reservoirs.
Fred in NJ

After you wick, check the pots and the soil should be slightly moist at all times. If it appears dry, the capillary action is not working so you have to water the plant until you see water running down the wick. It doesn't much.
Barb

I have been wick watering for 40 some years and use the 1:1:1 mixture as mentioned but never group water. The only thing I do differently than others, is that I add a drop of Physan20 per gallon of water to prevent the algae formation, along with Superthrive and dilute fertilizer. The reservior depends on the plant/pot size. Since I grow mostly minis and semis, most are on baby food jars. Pudding or friut cup containers work well too.

Irina posted: "the bark wouldn't work on wicks. In a constantly moist soil it will rot fast, change the Ph of the mix etc.

1:1:1 mix - peat, perlite, vermiculite is so far the best. I do not know about granite."

The bark will work on wicks according to folks in the Container forum. If you pop over there you'll find 9 threads all about soil mixes that use bark, granite, and Turface. And, some of these are wicked with good results.

I tested a mix made from 5 parts bark, 1 part peat, and 1 part perlite - the pH of the soil solution was 5.6. While this is lower than many people say to use, when I researched pH and AVs, I found many university extensions saying that AVs benefit from a pH from 5.5 to 6. In the wild, they grow on rocks with a pH as low as 4.8.

In terms of the 1:1:1, I know everyone uses it. I did for years, too (for other plants). But talk about breaking down fast! Peat breaks down much faster than the bark and the mix holds much too much water.

I highly encourage everyone here to go to the Container Forum and read the posts/threads about Container Soils and Water Movement (I think that is what they are titled). It took me a long time, but I read all 9 threads (there are 150 posts in each of them). It really is fascinating information.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but based on the science, it seems to me that we really could benefit from reevaluating our traditional mix and working to find something that may work better.

If anyone is interested, I'll post the results from my experiments regarding these mixes in a separate thread. It's important to understand the basics of the science in order to not just dismiss me as being crazy, though! The following is a great link that gives a basic explanation of why we may want to reevaluate.

Sorry to take this thread off track.

Here is a link that might be useful: Physical properties of container media

L.O. -

everything is possible and AV definitely will grow OK in the soil with Ph 5.6.

The problem is how it will change with time. Peat moss decomposes with humic acid as a part of the outcome - and Ph becomes even lower. At some point the ability to absorb nutrients, micronutrients and trace elements changes in way that the plant becomes semi-starved and semi-poisoned. If you do not repot a violet for a year on a wick - the soil will smell very sour, and the plant will be looking sad.

If you start with low Ph - the time the soil is good shortens - so dolomite lime is usually a good additive to delay the process. If it is not a powder, but a mix of fine and coarse particles - it keeps maintaining the balance.

About the bark - from the point of view of keeping the soil loose and well aerated - it is great - but - when it rots, it absorbs nitrogen - so you need to adjust your fertilizer to compensate for it. If you look at the orchid fertilizers - they have 2 types = for orchids in a bark mix - and for orchids in something else. Bark mix fertilizer looks like 30:5:5 - with an overload of nitrogen.

It is possible to grow violets in a pure coarse perlite on wicks. I bet you need to flush it on a regular basis though.

The idea is - you can grow your plants in different mixes - but there are always some adjustments to make. And every grower has his/her own secrets that work for his/her house, tap water, varieties they grow, humidity, elevation etc.
So - why not. You try and tweak - and you will make a perfect combination for your conditions.

About wild saintnpolias growing in the cracks of rocks with Ph 4.8 - First - they are wild and tough - second - their responsibility is to bloom and give seeds, not to look pretty. So if the seed ends in not the very cozy crack - it will still grow - and bloom. The bloom won;t be as abundant- and the plant will look stunted - but it will still produce seeds. While we want them to be perfect and bloom 10 months a year.

Irina, the spoilsport

You're not a spoilsport, just seeing it differently than I do in some respects. Of course everything we do affects something else. Of course we have to consider what happens to components as they break down.

But, I see opportunity. I see possibility. If hundreds of growers are using a gritty mix made of bark, and some of them are successfully growing AVs (and they are), then all I see is the fun of figuring out how we can use their knowledge to grow happier AVs.

One problem I find with Al's gritty mix is the weight. It is considerably heavier than other mediums. I'm enjoying it with succulents, but I prefer to be able to change out the mix for AVs once or twice a year anyway, because I think they do better, and because they usually need to be potted lower due to starting a neck. The gritty mix doesn't seem well suited to this, because you can't press a plant down in it without tearing up roots and/or the plant, and the way AVs grow, it's difficult to pot with this mix, trying to duck under the leaves with the mix that likes to go everywhere. That being said, I took the opportunity to pot an AV starter, that one of my cats decided to attack, in the gritty mix, to see how it will do. It's been maybe a month? It doesn't seem all that happy with me, but I can't say why for sure. I'll give it another couple months before I decide what I think. I can say right now, though, I'm leaning toward preferring the gritty mix for plants I don't want to have to repot for at least 3 years.

Quinn -

this is a good point. The roots will grow into bark - and it will be hard to separate them while repotting. Except for just using the sharp knife - and slicing the bottom of the root ball off.

If you look down the chat - there was a lively and very lengthy discussion about growing AVs in semy/hydro - basically in ceramic balls using them to provide the support and capillary movement of the feeding solution. Works well - it would be naturally a problem if a cat knocks the pot - balls would roll of course.

Neutral media work well if you provide your plants with a good fertilizer in a good water and let the roots breathe.
Can a bark be considered a neutral media - I guess depends on the tree ;-)).

Irina

It is a bit heavier, the gritty mix, but AV pots are sooooo small (compared to the large containers I grow in outside), that it doesn't seem problematic for AVs. Also, you can sub perlite for the granite. It will add to water retention, but it can be done.

It definitely does like to go everywhere, no question about that! It's one of the drawbacks.

The bark isn't nearly the issue as it may seem, Irina, as it's only 1/3 of the mix. The granite and Turface (or calcined DE) are 2/3. You're going for uniform size, so it's not like you have large pieces.

I've so far planted two of my rooted leaves in the gritty mix. I didn't have any problems. I also planted a ponytail palm in it last week. It was a bit interesting to try and get the mix around the roots, but I did okay with it. No question, it was a bit harder to work with.

I think I'm thinking most about the many people who kill plants and how good the gritty mix is for over waterers of the world. It just doesn't hold onto too much water. Since AVs need to have the water be "just right" this mix seems like it is a good substitute.

Of course, only time will tell.

Quinnfyre, will be looking forward to your results. Oh, are you wicking/matting or top watering?

Top watering. Not going for the wicking at this time. I think you may be the one to post your results on that one : )

I'm considering experimenting with semihydro, but haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I did start a hoya cutting on semihydro, and that seems to be going pretty well. I don't think I'd be able to grow it any other way... it's kind of a tricky one.

One of the people on the Brats AV forum does some semihydro with some non AVs....I think she grows hoyas, so maybe that's what she's using it for. She's mentioned trying it with AVs but hasn't yet.

I grow several orchids in S/H. Works pretty good.

I used pea gravel - granite mostly as a 3/4" layer for drainage and air access for streptocarpus. Works as a stabilizer for the pots too - since streps can be floppy.

Irina