They require more heat. Both will likely do significantly better if grown in pots where the roots will be warmer when it's warmer there. Of course they will also perform much better if you can find an acceptable way to alleviate the black spot issues with them, too. No foliage, no food, hence no growth. I honestly doubt they are forming substantial roots after two and a half years, unless they're the climbing sports. Both would also probably greatly benefit from being budded on the root stock suitable for your area. When you get down to it, both are pretty much "Tea-like" in their growth and preferences. They will perform much better with warmer roots until they gain the momentum they need to flourish. Colder, wetter soil and climate combined with the black spot probably have them 'stunted'. Kim

Kim said it perfectly, so there's little to add. In my experience the other end of the spectrum, too hot and dry, does not especially please them either. La France, Lady Alice Stanley and Souvenir du President Carnot have been quite challenging and the jury is still out on some of them. They need some coddling on their own roots and an almost "perfect" environment for them to flourish. SdPC was fine before the drought but a mess this year until I transplanted it to a shadier, cooler environment and it's now doing much better. Ditto for Emily, which did not die but would not grow until I planted it practically under Mutabilis, where it has no afternoon sun. For the first time in over a year I now have new little leaves! All in all they're fussy, demanding divas own root which is why I only have a few, but there's quite a sense of satisfaction when they do condescend to put out a few of their gorgeous blooms.

Ingrid

Alright, thanks Kim and Ingrid! I will dig them up and put them in pots in my hottest location and hope for the best!

Madame Caroline Testout was planted in the thousands in the 19th century in Portland and thrived, I believe, so it should be able to grow in the PNW.

However, it does like heat. My climbing version grows 15+ feet up a brick chimney on the South side of our house in zone 9 (dry summers). So, the "more heat" strategy should work. Hope so - it is a fabulous rose.

Jackie

As a group, they need a rootstock to perform. So comparing how they did in the past, when budding was an almost universal practice, so how they do now, when they are almost impossible to find budded, is like comparing azaleas to agave. They are completely different plants.

I only grow one HT & that is Mme Jules Bouche, she has been in the ground 3 years now, is about 5' tall & blooming her head off. She has very mild BS ( I pick it off) otherwise very healthy. Gregg at Vintage recommended her for my coastal NW WA garden, she has a northern exposure.

I only grow one HT & that is Mme Jules Bouche, she has been in the ground 3 years now, is about 5' tall & blooming her head off. She has very mild BS ( I pick it off) otherwise very healthy. Gregg at Vintage recommended her for my coastal NW WA garden, she has a northern exposure.

Well said, mad_gallica. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are usually just that...exceptions. Mme. Jules Bouche is one. That thing has been a horse everywhere I've ever seen it. That isn't disparaging, just how it's always performed in my observation. It was (is) a great rose, particularly for someone not familiar with bands and for more difficult situations. She just grows. Good rose! Kim

Thank you Kim, you have clarified for me exactly what kind of roses I want to grow, exceptions & workhorses! Perhaps I should start another thread looking for them. Jane

Just FYI, my Madame Caroline Testout is on its own roots - I know because I personally rooted it from an old one in our neighborhood and planted it. Here is a pic.

Jackie

Beautiful rose, Jackie! Hopefully mine will decide it likes it here!
So do I hear a recommendation for Mme Jules Bouche in the PNW? I'm on the lookout for a lovely white rose.

The climbing mutations of HTs often have tremendously greater vigor and even better blooms than the bushes. Cl. Mrs. Sam McGredy is a marvelous climber, even though it's once flowering. The bush form of Mrs. Sam is one of the wimpiest pieces of dreck you can imagine. Sparse foliage, think, wispy wood, lots of black spot, weak stems and few flowers, but that climber! The old annuals are chock full of praise for climbing sports of HTs, compared to their bush forms. Kim

I forgot to mention Hoag House Cream which is planted in a rather warm spot but has already had one bloom and I've spotted some tiny new buds today. It seems like a tough little plant. I suppose the old hybrid teas are a mixed bag, and some are stronger than others. I'm ready to smack wimpy Lady Alice around a little at this point.....

Ingrid

hi, Melody,
I live in the Puget Sound area of the PNW, zone 8b. I've grown Caroline Testout, Snowbird and Mme Jules Bouche, all own root.

Snowbird died one cold wet winter while CT did over time (about 3-4 years) become a healthy, hefty rose. I gave it to a friend, who says it is doing well in her yard not far from me. I bought it because I had read it was grown all over Portland and thought it might do well up here, a little west of Seattle. I think it does fine, it is just very slow and needs as much heat as you can give it. I grow Mme. Jules Bouche in a warm spot with terrible soil and it has done well there. I plan to keep it. I finally gave up on Betty, but Gardens of the World and Grace Darling are finally doing well, although still small. I should note that the deer have browsed both of these though, so that also set them back. Gardens of the World seems to be a nice rose here. Here's a pic of it:

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I think putting Snowbird and CT in pots is a good idea. My roses with tea influence or tea struggle the most of all my roses. I finally put Devoniensis and Mme Melanie Willermoz in pots where they are doing better, even after four years in the ground. I am going to put them in the greenhouse this winter. Lady Hillingdon has done beautifully this summer though, best I've seen it, and it is in the ground.

Not hybrid teas, but two others that do great here are Mutabilis and Golden Wings. I guess I have a thing for singles ...

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My soil is very sandy and gravelly, and I've learned I have to keep up with the fertilizing and watering because the soil here just does not retain nutrients or moisture. That has been part of my problem with the early hybrid teas. I think had I kept them in pots they would have done better a lot faster. Live and learn, huh? Gean

Ingrid, I admire pictures of Hoag House so much, but I'm afraid it might want a warmer climate than mine.

Gean, your info is so helpful! The photos are beautiful. I am considering Mme Jules Bouche now and I've dreamed of Lady Hillingdon for a long time and hearing that it's done well for you makes me so tempted to try it! How many years have you had it?
Melody

Melody,
LH is four summers old now. For three years it was in an area that was sunny but had too much root competition, I think. I moved it last winter to another sunny spot and with the better soil and good sun it has bloomed the best I've seen this summer. It is a beautiful thing, but slow. Of all the teas I've tried it has done the best. Another tea/gigantea that does well for me own root is Faith Whittlesey. It has wonderful foliage and in a sunny summer like this has done well. It's always grown well and bloomed, but the blooms are not as beautiful in damp weather as they are in the sun.

One thing about those early hybrid teas, Melody, "I think" they really respond to being well fed and watered. When I coddle them, they really respond, esp if there is sun . That probably sounds obvious, but I don't coddle my roses much so they require more effort on my part. I can pretty much ignore the albas, for example, and they still make me happy come springtime.

This has been such a beautiful sunny summer up here, which accounts no doubt for the better behavior of all of my roses that would rather be in the south. I've only been here five summers so I don't exactly know what is really typical ...

Poor Devoniensis usually dies down to the ground every winter. In its fifth summer, it is still less than a foot tall. It is a champ though, it keeps trying to bloom, little as it is. In a pot and kept in the greenhouse over the winter, I hope it will do better next year. Gean

Hi, Gean - Although I'm sorry to read that 'Betty' didn't make it, I'm glad that some of your Teas did. I gave a 'Devoniensis' to the cemetery rose garden about 3 years ago (and I had had it in a pot for a year and a half), and it is now doing very well and has grown quite a bit. I have read that it is a rose that takes a while to get going, and I'd have to agree with that, but it's a lovely thing. And I was going to ask (on looking at your photos) if you have tried Albas, but I see from your post that you have. I have recently become interested in them on behalf of a relative who lives in an area with much colder winters than we have, and I find them truly beautiful plants.
Laura in Sacramento