The Mosses are, as a group, an odd bunch - often with peculiar growth habits, spare rebloom (if any) and many have disease issues. The OGR Mosses are often quite good, but don't expect reliable rebloom. I never got along well with 'Deuil de Paul Fontaine' (Blackspotted badly, always chlorotic, struggled to make new growth) nor 'Alfred de Dalmas'/'Mousseline' (refused to grow taller than 15", rarely flowered), but 'Soupert et Notting' does quite well for me. 'Gabriel Noyelle' was a pretty thing, and it grew reasonably well, but it was a total martyr to disease and it eventually succumbed to Blackspot, dying completely during a particularly hard winter. Of the once-blooming Mosses, I've had very good results from 'Capitaine John Ingram' and 'Henri Martin'.

But the real winners in the Moss family are the ones bred by Ralph Moore, IMO. Ralph did a very good job of taming the bad manners of the clan (tall, lanky canes that couldn't decide if they were tall shrubs, or climbers) and came up with some very attractive shrub type, repeat blooming varieties. I was particularly fond of 'Lady Moss', but it was killed in the 2015 Deep Freeze, sadly. I would replace it in a heartbeat if I could. 'Rougemoss' is also quite good here, with fiery scarlet blooms of a shimmering hue, and well-mossed buds. It does get Blackspot here, though. Though not commercially available, one of my favorite Moore Mosses is "O.M" (Orange Moss), one of Moore's earliest "foundation" hybrids, getting it's mossing trait from Pedro Dot's 'Golden Moss'. But "O.M." blooms only briefly in the spring, and it's not what you'd call a "tidy" plant. But the blooms are a rich orange/yellow blend and they small a bit like orange juice. I have to find some photos, but for now, here's a photo of one of "OM"s offspring, 7-62-9, also a Moss type:

Of the smaller Moore Moss roses, I've found 'Rose Gilardi' to be one of the best in terms of shrub shape, disease resistance, hardiness, fast repeat and the striping. A related hybrid is 'Scarlet Moss', with deep red blooms and excellent mossing. It's an upright plant, with less than graceful habit, but it's a sturdy plant that flowers reliably.

Finally, I have to give my "favorite" vote to 'Fakir's Delight' as well. Such a peculiar rose, but charming and the blooms are so beautiful. Everything Kim says about it is true. Fortunately for me, it's disease free in my garden, which is unusual for a Modern Moss.

Capitaine John Ingram is my favorite. I like Henri too but I must have made him mad for some reason because he didn’t bloom last year

I can not imagine any rose more beautiful than that photo of CJI above, Markay. Rich, velvety purple red and such a beautiful formation! I could look at such a rose all day.

I don't know the modern mosses, unfortunately. Another vote for 'Capitaine John Ingram', though the last time I saw it, it was being overrun by its neighbors, so I may have to acquire it again. I like the mosses in general. One of my mystery roses, obtained from a fellow gardener who collected it and which I've never been able to identify, is a low-growing, suckering, erect, once-flowering plant with pink blooms, looking like it has a dose of Portland in its ancestry. Another pleasant curiosity is 'Mme. Moreau', mossed AND striped, once-flowering, tidy pleasant blooms on a healthy plant. I like all my mosses, which is partly due to my being a not-too-ruthless gardener, and partly to them doing well if I put them in a spot where they have half a chance, i.e., they like my conditions.

Oh! and how could I forget 'Blanche Moreau', once-blooming, low-growing, white flowered, a tremendous suckerer and, apart from the need to control it, a perfectly carefree rose. It's beautiful, by the way. I particularly love the white mosses.

My impression is that there are quite a few good moss roses around that are not widely grown. Some may not be in commerce in the U.S. I got quite a few of mine from Petrovic in Serbia, about ten years ago.

Speaking of white Mosses, I used to have ’Comtesse de Murinais’, which was very beautiful; just a hint of peachy-pink when fresh, then a clear white. unfortunately it didnt thrive in my clay soil and gradually gave up.

'General Kleber' is a sweetly scented, very vigorous Moss with good foliage and, I think, exquisite blooms..

Paul, I used to have 'Comtesse de Murinais', a tall-growing rose on its own roots that I got from Heirloom back when they had a big collection of old roses. I thought it was beautiful, too! though it got more disease than some of its neighbors, which I didn't let bother me. I've tried to grow it here, but with no luck, possibly due to my own heavy clay soil.

Marlorena, your 'General Kleber' is in fact lovely. This is another one I've tried and had no luck with.

I just remembered another good moss: 'William Lobb'! Strong, healthy, happy rose with lanky canes that can be trained as a small climber. Mauve to purple flowers, very handsome and good.

Sorry I am so ignorant, but can someone tell me if "crested moss roses" are a sub set of "moss roses", or is there a separate type of "crested rose" which is not a moss rose?

I have a Ralph Moore rose which I got from Jeri Jennings, which she said Mr. Moore did not put into commerces because it was "not crested enough". Jeri named it 'Dawn Crest'. It is a pale pink once bloomer, and I love it. It does have a "crest" on the buds, but I do not see the very mossy growth in some of the photos above. Here are some pics of it:

Any comments would be appreciated -

Jackie

@jacqueline9CA

It kinda depends who you ask. Many list the Crested Damask (R. centifolia crisata) as a member of the Moss family of roses. I think the ARS lumps the two together.

But the fact is that the original R. centifolia crisata that led to Moore's hybrids like 'Dawn Crest' is a separate and unique mutation that is distinct from the Moss varieties. "Crested" roses are not "Moss" roses, IMO. Both mutations arose within the same general family of roses (Centifolia/Damask) but they are not the same mutation.

Paul - thank you so much! A very clear explanation - also it explains why my crested rose does not have any "moss" growing on it.

Jackie

Deuil de Paul Fontaine was a wimpy plant for me, very bs prone, and blooms were always misshapen and not pretty. Color was pretty. Henri Martin was a healthy ;plant with pretty blooms. Died from drought I think. Wm Lobb is a lanky grower here.

Rene d'Anjou is my best moss plant though I have a hard time saying it's my favorite. It grows better but is still bs prone. It is in part shade though. It repeats a little.

I love the resin smell of moss. I ordered Crested Moss grafted on multiflora this spring. Had an own root one that didn't do well at all...no vigor. Dawn Crest does very well here and seems to me it repeats. Gets some bs in NC but it's a pretty rose. Great plant of it, Jackie. Interesting that they're not really mosses though the crested look gets my attention.

I like Strawberry Swirl for its looks but don't really pay attention to any mossing.

Rene d'Anjou:

General Kleber is lovely and sounds like a good one.

Mosses are fascinating. I got Soupert et Notting from RVR early last year, but so far it's not liking it here. There were a few flowers last Spring, but none after. There are a few buds on it now, but zero foliage. This might be it's last gasp, but I'll give it some TLC and see if that might help it improve.

RVR had Deuil de Paul Fontaine briefly available last year, and I was tempted but decided to wait and see how Soupert worked out. Maybe Deuil would have liked it here more than Soupert...who knows..it is a beautiful dark wine color.

Such a delightful class of roses! I love this thread. :-) I have to chime in about the charm, beauty and fragrance of this one: ’Capitaine John Ingram’ is one of THE most exquisite roses of all time, in my opinion. Disease free for me. Slice the suckers and make more to share. ‘Salet’ is remontant(!), very mossy and very fragrant. No suckers in 20 years. And then I just have to mention my all time favorite: ’Carol Whitten’ bred by Paul Barden! This rose is the greatest gift and honor I could ever hope for because one of my favorite breeders and one of the loveliest human beings named this gorgeous red Moss after yours truly. My babies are growing, and I will share pics when they bloom. In the meantime, here’s a HMF link. Carol

HMF ‘Carol Whitten’ Moss Rose

https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.89730

@portlandmysteryrose happy to see you!!!

'Mme. Delaroche-Lambert' has these lovely blooms which don't last long enough and there could be more of them..

..I rather like her ''bad hair day'' look, or is it a French fascinator?..

portlandmysteryrose, I just noticed the suckers that my Capitaine John Ingram was sending up! I didn’t know it suckered! Bonus!!

@Markay MD-Zone 7A (8A on new map) it's common for mosses to sucker. The original mosses were sports of Rosa Centifolia (which suckers) in France in the 17th Century. Others have been discovered as sports of further sports from Centifolia. It's relatively common for many classes of European OGRs to sucker. Even a fair number of later Hybrid Perpetuals can sucker, often quite a good deal. In loose soils in climates where she's happy, Grandmother's Hat can sucker several feet. The earlier the moss, the greater its potential for suckering. As they learned it was possible to literally breed for mossing, the abiltiy to sucker was greatly reduced and in most of the "modern mosses", it's fairly rare, but can occur.

@roseseek, what finally happened to your "Deuil de Paul Fontaine"? How did it truly bloom well/repeat, and any info about size/fragrance over time? Shade/sun? There are quite a few for sale during bare-root season to pre-order and am in love with the color. Thanks!

@Rose Paris I was permitted to garden on an unused hillside bordering the planned community in which my sister and brother in law lived. The facing hill was felt "un buildable"

for the 18 years that garden existed...until it wasn't. I had to dismantle the garden in 2007 with roses going to the four winds. Many were simply bull dozed as no one was interested in established rose plants, unless "I" would dig, deliver and plant them. A few wonderful friends came to rescue things they found interesting and I spread cuttings and suckers everywhere I could find willing recipients. Alas, MANY now appear extinct today, based upon reported garden and nursery listings. I saved what I could and had to simply abandon the rest.

This

became this

with 90' slopes compacted to a 95 percentile to provide for NO drainage and improved earthquake resistance. It only required three builders to complete the condos crowning the man-made mountain as each went bankrupt.

DePF grew in that dense section toward the left end of the first photo, among all the other lilacs, suckering species and weird OGRS. It handled the changing sun exposure perfectly and suckered happily among the other roses. I was only able to get out there to water twice weekly due to work but from spring through fall, it had flowers on it. In that Zone 9b desert canyon, it flowered as reliably as any floribunda. I don't remember any severe fungal issues other than the obligatory mildew on some of the prickles which ALL mosses "enjoy" at least part of the year. That garden literally experience a 100 degree temperature swing from summer to winter (115F to 15F). The only roses I ever lost to anything other than gophers and thieves in the community were R. Sinowilsonii and R. Gigantea, both to freezes. Since that garden, I NEVER plant anything where anyone other than those invited in through the house can access them.

Fontaine's plant size was usually in the stated range on HMF, 3' - 4'. The width varied depending upon where it could find enough room to push itself through everything else. It did a great job of battling the suckering lilacs and other suckering roses. I remember it had scent, but it's been nearly 20 years since I've smelled it. It was its coloring and reliability that endeared it to me. Will Tillotson wrote in the old ROYAT catalogs it was "a real he-man of a rose" with its "brown tones" in the traditional OGR colors, so I HAD to grow it. Fortunately, in those years, there were enough like minded people buying odd things to support multiple sources for them. Now? Not so much. If you can find one, grow it! It deserves to be kept around.

The area in that jungle in which it grew received morning sun as the sun rose at the left end of that photo. In summer, it received mostly full sun until late in the day when the sun went down behind the hill above it, casting long, deep shadows from the plants growing upslope from it as well as the hill itself. In winter, it got little direct sun with strong filtered light through the other plants. DdPF didn't care. If it was warm and sunny enough to flower, it flowered. The UV was strong enough in the area to keep nearly everything on that slope happy. The hardest part (other than legions of rabbits, gophers and rats, as well as the predators which ate them (thankfully!) was creating enough shade to protect those plants not enjoying such extreme sun and heat. It took some years, but it worked. I miss being there, but it wouldn't be sustainable these days and at this age. You literally see about half of the planted area in the first photo. There wasn't anywhere I could access to get more of the garden in one shot. That photo was taken on Mother's Day, 1994. You can barely see the red, passenger's side rear fender of my car on the fire road about a third of the way up from the bottom. My mom was paraplegic from surgery. She was "to blame" for my gardening addiction and it was the last time I was able to take her out to the garden. She passed a month later. It was as if the garden knew it and put out a massive bloom to mark her visit.

Kim, your story and photos touched me. What a beautiful garden! And what a tragedy to see what it became! But I love the garden for blooming as it did for your mother just before her death…. I’m glad you have photos and memories.

Thank you @judijunebugarizonazn8.

@roseseek, thanks for sharing! Sorry to hear about your mom, but am glad you got to share that amazing garden with her!

I love moss roses, but I've never owned one. Why not? I live where Roseseek used to, and it's heartening to hear Deuil de Paul Fontaine did so well here. I'm going to start looking for it--or some morss romse that's heat-rolerant. x--or some moss that' seriously for that rose

Oops. I just meant to say, some moss rose that's heat-tolerant.

@sylviaww 10a, hot dry inland Socal, yes, the heat part is interesting, especially as climate change is making things hotter and drier, so which roses can stand it? Is there a thread on this?

@sylviaww 10a, hot dry inland Socal do whatever you can to provide shade during the hottest parts of the extreme weather. I grew lilacs, Altheas (Rose of Sharon), Buddeleias and other controllable flowering shrubs as well as enormous roses to provide shade. One of the major components of the dark green mountain in the middle of that left side bed was Silver Moon grown as a free standing mountain. In that garden, at that size, it frequently produced scattered flowers much of the summer. That was virgin, unmolested native soil amended with 18 years of copious amounts of horse manure (fresh, aged, didn't matter). Hopefully, you're not on engineered soil as that negates almost everything you could possibly do as there is nowhere for the roots to grow but under the sod. And, try to keep the roses as far away from any sort of hardscape as possible. That reflected, radiated heat can easily cook them to death, particularly during an extreme event. DdPF did as well as he did due to the mitigating effects of those up slope plants cooling the air, providing shade during the worst of it and that wonderful layer of earthworm castings from all that manure.

Rogue Valley had Paul Fontaine in stock briefly a year or so ago. I ALMOST bought it based on Kim's recommendation. I haven't seen it back in stock since.

Maybe for bareroot season, it will be back? Thanks for the advice here--I have never grown a moss before, but am intrigued and adore the color! For people in the EU, I found this one and many mosses at Lens Roses. I have never ordered from them before, so can't vouch for the company, but they do have immense catalog and ship to several countries ,and you can sign up to be emailed when the rose you want is in stock.

@Rose Paris the Lens Nursery is Rudy and Ann Boudolf Velle who succeeded Louis Lens. They are marvelous individuals. I met them through Huntington Library Old Rose Symposiums decades ago. Friends in Europe have had success getting them to resurrect some of Mr. Lens' earlier creations from old gardens. Yes, please support them. They deserve it!

@roseseek, thanks! I decided to give it a try and ordered roses, one of them Paul. They came right away and it was so painless--perhaps because box was delivered by the actual post office so they really stopped by when they said they would, and there is good tracking too (unlike some commercial delivery services). The rose were well packed in separate boxes, unlike some companies that bind and throw them all together in a jumble or a bundle, and you open and there is dirt flying and you have to very carefully cut them apart so not to damage them.. That was perfectly done! And they are quite large specimens, with buds! I am hoping that that means that Paul really does repeat--and that the bud will stay despite the stress of transport so I can see it bloom before next year--but with new roses, you never know if they are quite on the same cycle as everyone else, so time will tell!

I’ve never tried growing a moss rose before, on the assumption that (like teas, albas, hybrid musks, noisettes and most chinas) they would hate my very hot and humid climate with high black spot pressures and the tendency for blooms to ball and moulder after heavy summer rains. However, if there was one that would tempt me it would be Paul Barden’s ’Treasure Trail’, now available in Europe. Not just because the blended colours are something that increasingly appeal to me, but because I have been reliably informed that it is heat tolerant!

@Rose Paris I’m glad you took the plunge and tried Lens, I have only ordered from them once before but was equally happy with the quality of the bare roots and careful packaging.

Incidentally the old roses I have had success with are the bourbon and portland/damask classes.. Mostly, it’s modern shrubs and floribundas with thick, leathery leaves and blooms with good petal substance that stand up best to my summer heat.

Nollie, I just received Barden’s Treasure Trail last week from Rogue Valley as a band. It’s potted up to a gallon pot and I anticipate seeing it valiantly face my brutal climate here and put on a good show. It will probably be a pot pet on my patio now that I have the perfect spot for it.

@Rose Paris good for you! You're going to love doing business with Lens Nursery! Mr. Lens always impressed me by his refusal to use the stupid term "hybrid musk", classifying them as "multiflora hybrids" instead. The PRESUMED "musk" ancestor is SO far back in any ancestry and the presence of multiflora genes so prevalent in ALL of them, "multiflora hybrids" ARE what they all are. Ann and Rudy are just as impressive. @judijunebugarizonazn8 watch out for pots, Treasure Trail and the climate. TT is NOT a "mini", but a modern moss. Did you notice its size? Basically 2' - 4' tall by about as wide? It wants to be in the ground, much like the moss he and Mr. Moore named for me, which actually grows a bit larger.

Ah, maybe my idea isn’t a good one, Kim. Thanks for warning me! I’ll put it in a pot for now but keep an eye out for any signals that it’s had enough of that sort of lifestyle. I seldom keep roses in pots long term anyway as they and I both seem to be happier when they have their own share in the ground.

That's why "Kim Rupert" resents being potted. Both of them ARE larger roses even though the flower size may suggest they're "miniatures". Notice this photo Paul Barden posted years ago. The caption stated it doubled in size after the photo. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.165200 They outgrow pots fairly quickly and begin to decline due to lack of root room and resources.

I have some roses I am surprised seem to do well in pots and in fact better than in the ground. This might say more about my "soil" quality than anything.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR it might, or it could indicate the variety in question simply requires warmer soil with its greater bacterial and fungal activity making resources more readily available. Some varieties are just not great plants and do substantially better with "higher culture". Purple Tiger, Grey Pearl, Little Grey Pearl and Ray Spooner's "Lavender Spoon" come immediately to mind. In the ground, they sulk and usually grow backwards until they simply die but in a larger pot with good soil and very high culture, they can prove to be decent plants. So, yes, it may be indicative of your soil but it can also indicate the varieties in question simply demand "more".

For what it's worth, my plants of 'Treasure Trail' grown here have never exceeded 3X3 feet, even with the best care.

I guess they can't all be giants--and thankfully, as not all of us have enough yard! NollieSpainZ9, where did you see "Treasure Trail" in Europe? It does seem rather gorgeous. I am only seeing "Tresaure Trove", which does not seem to be the same rose?

Roseseek on 8/20, I dont think my garden is artificial soil..In planting roses over 7 years, I would take out the sod, get rid of the plastic netting beneath it, and dig into coarse rough soil, with a surprisingly large number of small ro medium rocks. It's not clay as I've seen it in midwest. I miss the rich soil of our old home, built on a former citrus orchard in the San Fernando Valley..

Judi, that’s good news, you can be my testing ground for Treasure Trail, lol!

Rose Paris, TT (along with Jeri Jennings) is sold by tuincentrumlottum in the Netherlands, although TT is wrongly attributed. Weird, because they did correct this to Barden at one point and I’m pretty sure it’s the right rose, but it seems to have defaulted back to Scarman again:

https://www.rozenlottum.nl/en_GB/a-100756884/all-available-roses/treasure-trail/#specs

@Rose Paris obviously someone typed in or clicked the misinformation as Scarman didn't bred a rose with "Treasure" in its name.

NollieSpainZ9, thanks for the link--that rose really looks lovely! Different from the others, which is something I appreciate!

Lady Moss in extreme heat here.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR she's a gorgeous thing, isn't she?

Yes she is, Kim. Gorgeous and really tough.

Remarkable to understand she's half miniature, isn't it? Fairy Moss X Gabrielle Noyelle. Everything that's behind Fairy Moss is unbelievable.

I love Lady Moss! Espeially those big green droopy leaves. Is she fragrant? What about thorns?

LOTS of prickles! She IS a "Moss rose" and they ARE prickly, Look at those gorgeous prickles!https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.82322 HMF says "moderate fragrance" but I've not smelled it for probably 25 years and don't remember anything specific about it.

My nose is not the best.