Pitandiego,

Want me to report it?

They also stole your pic and many from Georgi. Georgi and I had this discussion about many of their pics, like the armenian pic being stolen. Pi$$es me off.

This is nothing new -- people have been stealing pictures to sell their products as long as EBay's been around. That's one reason why I don't post many pictures on my site. Jon, you might want to think about using a watermark or stamp on the pics.

I saw a nursery who stole fig pictures from Paradise and Raintree on Amazon. Fortunately Amazon allows reviews, so I let them have it. It wasn't long before that product was removed.

I also have my doubts about this ebayer. I pretty much never buy plants off ebay but I did buy a couple pomegranates from this guy since I could find no other source. The plants are doing fine but I am seriously doubting whether the varieties are correct. This incorrect picture gives me another reason for concern.

Long and short is I am going to be avoiding all ebay plant purchases from here on out, unless I have some strong evidence of true-to-variety listings.

Scott

Scott, it is not to much for most of to ask for pictures of the leaves and inside of the fruit. In the end, the story they are selling has to make sense.

Some of have sold trees, but again, you have to know what you are doing to get all the info to make informed purchase. I have asked for pics of the insides of the fruit, leaf pics, and in general if the person know what they are talking about.

Here are a few posts that have pi$$ed me off on ebay:

1. "I have planted fig seeds, here is my result, this nice 1 foot tree that will give your family lots of figs." (sigh)

The guy selling the ebay arkansas fig pi$$es me off.
2. "This tree is not a celeste tree, it is a native cold hardy arkansas tree."

WRONG!!! Figs were never native to Arkansas. I bought his tree before I knew better and found pieces of roofing shingles, nails, screws, and other stuff in his soil. Not the sign of a guy who to me really takes pride in his trees.

3. LdP and I were laughing at this one on ebay: "It is a Brown Turkey fig, it will give good figs, however you will get more fruit if you plant two"..

Arrrr. Again, wrong, but may be a great marketing ploy.

I will however, play top dollar from a person who knows figs. Georgi, Bass, Herman, LdP, GH, all of these guys could ask top dollar for their trees and I would pay because they know what they are doing.

Oh, there is also a guy selling copies of Ray Givens book, but I am not entirely sure it is Ray Given selling it. I really hope it is Ray selling it, not some guy who bought it selling content that is not his to resell.

My two cents.

**3. LdP and I were laughing at this one on ebay: "It is 8a ?Brown Turkey fig, it will give good figs, however you will get more fruit if you plant two"..**

Come on loslunas, its simple arithmatic, if you plant 2 fig trees you'll get twice as many figs than if you plant 1 ;)

That's technically true.

I have contacted Ebay. It is a long process designed to discourage complaints. After-all, the seller is the one paying the money to E-bay.

All of their material is borrowed, and I have no confidence that anything they sell is actually what they advertise it as. The are apparently the TyTy of Northern San Diego County.

My interest is in seeing that no one purchases from them because they will obviously not be getting what they thought they purchased.

The picture for the Black Ishcia tree offered is also from the Figs4Fun site, and the pix for the Conadria tree is from Ray Givans site. I am sure, with a little detective work I could find the rest of the pix on other sites, as well. The use the same picture of one fig tree for all their listings, and they obviously can't all look identical.

Just don't want to see fig lovers ripped off.

Murky:

LOL! They meant in the spirit of pollenation! LOL!

Jon,
I saw where he used the same photo for 6 or more varities.

Even a novice should see that! Buyer beware!

Are the pics in question copyrighted, or part of public domain? Has anyone contacted Mr Givens to find out if his material is being sold by him or an authorized person?
These practices [you are discussing]are not limited to ebay, they are common to mail order plant and seed companies. Some of the descriptions certainly deserve a Pulitzer Prize for fiction! Makes one wonder if the writer believes the truthfullness of the claims (fig tree native to AR).

Elder:

Are the pics in question copyrighted, or part of public domain?
Im not sure, Jon and Georgi took the pics, so they are being taken wo permission. I think Georgi and Jon hate the fact figs are being blantanly and on-purpose mis-represented to sell trees. AKA, lying, to sell trees.

Has anyone contacted Mr Givens to find out if his material is being sold by him or an authorized person?
I'n not sure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/FIG-BOOKLET-FIG-TREE-EVERYTHING-YOU-NEED-TO-KNOW_W0QQitemZ270237335290QQihZ017QQcategoryZ42353QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Makes one wonder if the writer believes the truthfullness of the claims (fig tree native to AR).
Not sure, but there is to much $$ to be made otherwise.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fig-Tree-100-Years-Old-Historic-Arkansas-Fig-3-liter_W0QQitemZ160240251759QQihZ006QQcategoryZ42353QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with selling on ebay, but please be truthful with varieties. As Peg mentioned, buyer beware.

I don't personally know Mr. Givens but I sent him an email with a link to the sale of his book on ebay. Hopefully the seller has permission. If I hear anything I will let the forum know.

RE: Ray Gavan's 'Fig Booklet':
I think that it is perfectly OK to re-sell a personal
previously bought copy (one owns it!). Legal problems
start if one 'somehow' sells multiple 'copies' of it
(or any book for that matter).

Re: Ebay Armenian fig pic:
Yes, I was somewhat pi$$ed! All one needed to do, was just
ask for some permission/acknowlegment, and most very very
likely it would have been gladly granted. No I do not have
copy-rights on it, UNLESS GW/FF (globally) does it on its
OWN site (for their sake). Some of the text 'description'
was also word-for-word copied, but (maybe intensionally)
left out my "most of the fruit tasted as good as cardboard" statement.
refs: notice top/right pic being cut/pasted...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360035495907&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg0900464014692.html

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg0607230529783.html

Gorgi you made a valid point about the right to resell a product on ebay that you previously purchased. I did a quick check on the ebay seller and found that he/she sold 6 copies of Mr. Ray Givens book in the recent past. I could only go back so far and check the sales data since much of the historical information is removed. The six sales that I found of the FIG-BOOKLET-FIG-TREE-EVERYTHING-YOU-NEED-TO-KNOW written by Mr. Givens are: 270237335290, 270229350835, 270228190182, 270226428530, 270226274848, 270223435489 If the ebay seller doesn't have Mr. Given permission to be a reseller there may be a problem.

For all of you fig-crazy/nuts/etc., here is the real source
for the Ray Givan's Fig Booklet, that did get me 'hooked'
on 'them' figs, a while ago...

http://home.planters.net/~thegivans/salelist.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Ray Givan - The Fig Booklet

I am NOT a lawyer! But among the many numbo/jumbo 'words',
that I have just read under the GW/FF "Terms of Service",
which I guess is an equivalent as a (GW) copyright:

Unauthorized access, distribution, reproduction, copying, retransmission, publication, sale, exploitation (commercial or otherwise) or any other form of transfer of any portion of the GardenWeb Network, including but not limited to all content, services, products, features or tools, is hereby expressly prohibited.

Here is a link that might be useful: GW - Terms of Service

Flanders pix from Raintree Nursery: http://www.raintreenursery.com/catalog/producttype.cfm?producttype=FIGS

Conadria pix from Ray Givans:
http://home.planters.net/~thegivans/id-light.html

White Genoa pix from Peaceful Valley:
http://www.groworganic.com/item_FT101_Fig__White_Genoa_Standard_No_1_p.html?welcome=T&theses=2798816

Beall from GFigs 4 Fun:
http://figs4fun.com/fpix/FP950-12.jpg

His response after Ebay pulled the first item was: "Hi, I am incredibly sorry for using your picture. Please accept my appology. -Mike" But he didn't stop using the others. So back to Ebay we go.

The item that was removed by Ebay today has been relisted as http://cgi.ebay.com/Ficus-carica-GARNSEY-WHITE-FIG-Fruit-Tree-15-gallon_W0QQitemZ300211721387QQihZ020QQcategoryZ42353QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have notified Raintree and Peaceful Valley of the use of their material.

Alma pix is from Reads Nursery.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm still confused about the Given's booklet thing - copying the booklet without permission is certainly illegal, but re-selling the booklet after legally purchasing it would seem to be perfectly legal, even multiple copies.

In regard to reselling Mr. Ray Givans book, I believe the following link can help provide clarity

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp

Baying4u reposted the removed item, and I have gotten Ebay to remove it again, and two others. Next stop is the Calif Ag Dept (most likely selling without Nursery License and phyto certs - both illegal in CA) and Dept. of Consumer Affairs since Ebay will not investigate 3rd party reports of fraud - only those involving the actual reporting person's material.

johnsvmf, your referenced link deals primarily with plagiarism, and forbids the sale of illegally copied material. However it states that if a royalty fee has been paid then you have the right to resale. I would assume that if the item(s) for sale had originally been purchased from Mr Givens that this would automatically include the royalty fee. If this were not the case, then amazon.com and all the many hundreds of used book stores are engaged in an illegal activity by selling used books.

The issue is if the seller has Mr. Givans' permission. That is why Mr. Givans has been notified that someone is selling his work for $11.60 on ebay when they could purchase it from the author for $11.00.

What Is Copyright
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of "original works of authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

I'm sorry everyone on here thinks that I have fraud listing and that I do not sell true varieties. The fact is, every single plant variety I have listed on eBay is 100% true strains. I'm sorry I took pictures that didn't belong to me, I admit that. I just found it quicker to search the fruit and copy the picture. Once I get actual photos when each type of tree bares fruit I will try to snap pictures and list them on each ad. As far as having a ton of fig varieties listed with the same generic photo, that is only because I could not find pictures on the internet of those types of figs. I have common varieties of fruit & I have very rare varieties of fruit, as you all can see when looking in my eBay store. For the most part I am a 1 man opperation with my little nursery hobby. Yes it is a hobby of mine and I love all plants and trees. A couple years back I decided to start selling some trees on eBay and it just escallated from there. I would like to assure everyone that each plant I have, sell, ship, IS a 100% True variety. I would not decive people like that, I am not like that. I really am sorry about taking pictures off the internet that did not belong to me. And when everyone here talks about eBay trusting the seller because thats who they get their money from... it's really not like that, they take BIG action when they here this type of fraud talk from the eBay buyers. I was almost shut down because of me taking these fig photos. They made me jump through hoops to let me keep seller on eBay. Also about my figs being removed and then me relisting them.. my eBay powerseller page is set up to auto relist my items and I didn't mean to list an item that was removed. I manually went through and changed the photos to others that I could quickly fide and relisted them. I WILL TRY MY BEST, not to pi$$ off any of my fellow plant lovers & experts. Again please accpet my sincerest apologies. Thank you for understanding & have a nice day, Mike

Simply put! I am not at all impressed with all these (fake)
sorry, sorry sooory... excuses, all without any solid
corrective actions so far...

So, Mike, are you going to stop using all of the other pictures which you stole from all the other sources? Or only if someone complains. Are you going to do the right thing, or only if you get caught again. Are you going to stop using pix from Read's Nursery, gorgi, Dave Wilson Nursery, Ray Givans, Nafex, etc? I didn't think so. Many of your "True Varieties" don't exist: La Tarulla? Neurone? But then that makes it easy to sell whatever, because there is no way to prove that it isn't what it is supposed to be. I'm on this every day till you stop stealing, and ripping people off.

Giving the benefit of doubt I can see how the "bogus" names below could possibly be the result of some kind of miscommunication with an IT guy managing the ebay listings but unfamiliar with figs.

LA TARULLA = LATTARULA/LATARULLA?
VIOLETTE DE DURPEUX = VIOLETTE DE BORDEAUX?
NEURONE = NERO?

However, statements like:

"I just found it quicker to search the fruit and copy the picture"

...could be accurately restated as: I just found it quicker to search the fruit and steal pictures rather than take my own pictures or get permission for/pay for other people's pictures.

With regard to this statement:

"For the most part I am a 1 man opperation with my little nursery hobby"

...if this is true explain how some of your ebay listings have the "bogus" names mentioned above. I'd really like the true explanation about this. This statement doesn't quite jibe with having over 800 current items in your ebay store.

As George pointed out half truths and half measures don't go very far.

Each and every plant or palm tree I have listed on eBay, I have, and will try to photo the fruit for main pictures when each type bares it's fruit. You should realize it is a hard task to do, and will take some time. As far as bogus names go, have you ever heard of Exotica, Steve is a good fruit of mine, and Steve does not sell or produce bogus plants.. He does however grow new varieties often and come across some of the rarest plants from all over. And for the rest of my inventory/ collection, I have good close friends of mine that own and operate large wholesale only nurseries.

What do you want me to say or do, to help you guys believe me. And just plain get off my case about this. You're dedicated to this every day.... well you know what do whatever you gotta do, I find it amusing and kind of ridiculous.

Thank you all for hearing me out. -Mike

Please stop acting naive/stupid! For one thing you were
smart enough to establish this recent GW/FF login...

I had send you a private 'ebay' message well before all this
broke loose here; all I got for an answer, was a 'sorry'!

Do the right thing by removing the unethical/illegal stuff,
before more serious stuff hits you.

Just received an email from GW/FF that in "laymen's" trems
translates to that any GW/FF poster (for better or worse)
still OWNS his/her original work! The posting only 'grants'
GW/FF permission to USE the work.

Like those 'Mission impossible' movies where the audible
tape self-destructs upon first hearing, this email vanished
- NO NO NO, I did not hit any wrong button!

If anybody is that interested in much more details,
email me privately...

Mike,

You have a great way of explaining/rationalizing your illegal actions. You seem to be saying it's OK to steal other people's pictures just because "it is a hard task to do, and will take some time". It's like you are saying:

Since it's a hard task to do and will take some time in the meantime I'm just going to steal pictures so I can make money.

Has it occurred to you that the time and effort required to produce your own pictures is simply part of operating your business? It's part of operating a legitimate, legal, ethical business anyway, but you have so obviously rationalized operating illegitimately and illegally - and continue to try to make it sound OK.

Here's some more "Mike-logic":

I've got this business idea, but it will require $100,000 to get started. However, it will take a lot of time and effort to raise $100,000. Therefore, I'll just rob a bank so I can get my business started. That's OK, isn't it? Sure it is.

Mike,
I have one question...what is your nationality? And yes. I do have a legit reason for asking...
sue

Some good news! The GW/FF response email did NOT vanish after
all! Had something to do with me printing it!?
I will soon post a new thread, explaining that 'we still
own our work here' (for better/worse) with some (edited)
quotes/reference from this message...

Sue, Not to question your motive, but what does this mans nationality have anything to do with what he did? Ciao

Maggie,

You know, after I posted my message I regretted the words I used. I certainly did not mean to sound racist, which I think I did. My thought was that English may be a second language to Mike and may be the cause of some of the discourse. My apology if my question offended anyone. I certainly did not intend that.

I have contacted Mike over the past few months in regards to his ebay figs. I've pointed out the errors of his naming of his figs and questioned their history. He acknowkedged my emails, admitted the names were probably not correct but did nothing to correct them as I suggested. I've tried to get an 'audience' with him since I live so close (an hour away) all to no avail. I was hoping he just didn't understand and not that he just didn't care. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. So much for that...

Henry, I think Mike's Neuron may be Negronne (Violette de Bordeaux) not Neon (Nero=Black Ischia?) but then that's the whole basis of our issue with Mike...what the heck is he REALLY selling???

Sue

Ciao Sue, I figured as much, no problem with me, I just wondered. Sometimes I think the same thing with language differences. I have not myself always been politically correct, but I apologize if I need to, if not I don't. I thought it had something to do with you wanting to know if he may be messing up due to language. I personally noticed alot of misspellings on ebay with the figs, and the same pictures I noticed as well. I also noticed the same pictures being used for many different varieties. I was turned off by these simply because I want what I want and don't want to worry if it is what I purchased when the seller obviously doesn't know a thing that he/she is doing. The name mispelling turned me off and wondered why they would do nothing to correct the names. I figured his neurone or whatever was probably Negronne, but if he couldn't take the time to spell it properly, he probably didn't take the time to properly grow the true varieties. He could have mixed the tags up on his trees due to his neglegence and obvious lack of interest. People need to take time and patience and do things right. What we see on ebay the first second either attracts us to their products or turns us away immediately. I saw his a few months back and they turned me away immediately since he was so neglectful with his pictures and spelling of the names. What is he selling anyway? I want to know this. I bet you won't get what you ordered. Ciao

I can't find the link where I read this and I'm not a lawyer, but in regards to copyrights, I believe that images that we create and display on the internet are automatically copyrighted (no need for the (c) symbol) through The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

If someone knows a copyright lawyer, you might want to run it by them to be sure.

The previously referenced web site (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp) supports your belief. As a matter of record the ebayer seller did not have Mr. Givans permission to sell his book.

Vinnie

RE GW/FF work ownership posted ~6 post above my me:
I am re-posting here (rather than a new post).
By (for better/worse); for better (good work) I meant,
one can get some pats-on-the-back, or the work stolen.
By 'for worse' (stupid work), I meant, one can get his/her
butt 'kicked' many times over.

Sooo... be careful, you OWN your work! The (digital)
internet is forever; and probably it will soon be part
of man's 'knowledge' HISTORY.

Here is the GW/FF response to me saying that
eBay not answering to 'a third party'.
[...] brackets = my own additions/edited contentents...
-------
Unfortunately, I think you've misunderstood our Terms of
Service. Our TOS explicitly says that you remain the owner
of your original work and that by posting your content, you
grant us the right to USE it. Our TOS says:

By submitting content, which shall include your member name,
to any "public area" of the GardenWeb Network, including,
but not limited to, the forums and your personal website,
exchange page and journal, you grant iVillage
[huh! so that is where nasty those pop-ups are coming from!]
a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right
(including any moral rights) and license to use, reproduce,
modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works
from, distribute, sublicense, assign, derive revenue or
ther remuneration from, communicate to the public,
perform and display the content (in whole or in part)
worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any
form, media, or technology now known or later developed,
for the full term of any Rights that may exist in such
content.

You [aka., me - gorgi] absolutely do have a case to
present to eBay and, like most websites, they take copy
right infringement seriously. When you register with
eBay, you are signing an agreement that the material you
present is your own original work or that you've received
permission to use it. I'm not sure what form you used to
contact them, but this is the form that you should use:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html

Once again, YOU are the owner and you have every right to
request they remove this listing.

You might also contact the seller and demand the listing be pulled.
[I did, but no action was taken].
-------

George(NJ).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220244590689&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

http://cgi.ebay.com/CALIFORNIAN-FIG-TREE-FRUIT-PLANT-RARE_W0QQitemZ220244590689QQihZ012QQcategoryZ20536QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Wow...both of these last two listings have already been removed...impressive, Jon :)