Gill,

This is a typical dilemma we all face at times. Adenium can be as unpredictable as their cousins pachypodium and plumeria. We grow all three commercially. From your description you seem to be doing everything correct. I have one question about your compost. What is the makeup and the source? Could it be contaminated? A few thoughts: The compost can be cleaned by the use of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) which should be readily available at the local pharmacy i.e. drugstore (US description). The use of H2O2 will greatly reduce the bacteria contributing to the caudex/root rot and also oxygenate the soil to help dry out the soil. Watering Plants use 6 -16 oz. 3% H2o2 per gal. water. Water container thoroughly.

Jack

Hello Jack, thank you for the reply. I was quite proud of my little Desert Rose having hatched it from a batch of 10 seeds back in April, this was the sole survivor, and I thought I'd cracked it! I think the compost had been to wet and cold at one point. Not sure of the actual makeup of the compost without going and checking for the bag in the depths of the g/h but it is a UK comercially available cactus compost I use for many of my plants that need fast draining soil including my 5 plumerias. I would be surprised if it has been contaminated as it was a new bag back this spring for that purpose. But I suppose it could have 'gone bad' since it was potted in it. I will however report back after I check tomorrow in the daylight as here it's 7.40pm and -2c at the moment! brrrr!
Thanks for the 'recipe' to sterilise the soil, will note that down. Any chance the softened stem will recover? The caudex's bottom end was brown and a bit rotted, I cleaned it off as best I could whilst trying to save these little root nubs. It's back on the fish tank in a dryish mix and hasn't been watered now that I re-potted it.
Here's a pic of it earlier this year. Think I may well end up having to search eBay UK again for a source of seeds and start again. Were dozens on offer a few weeks ago, loads of colours, but only 3 so far at silly prices. All 10 of my original batch germinated in a matter of a couple of days. Will have to ask Santa for some more!
Thanks for the info, will be back tomorrow.
Gill.
{{gwi:526550}}

Hi Gill,

You're quite welcome. Let me know how it does. Another item, I forgot to give you a link to one of the best sites on the net for Adenium info:

http://www.tropicanursery.com/adenium/commercial.htm

On the left menu you will see the Adenium care topics read them thourghly, a wealth of info.

Cheers, Jack

Hello again Jack, sorry for not replying yesterday as promised but we had an unexpected visit of one of our daughters and her partner with 2 cars jam full of belongings to store as they are moving house in the New Year...and my mum for the day!
Ok, not that much info on the cactus compost bag other than it says it's a blend of grit and peat based soils plus the usual added minerals etc...so I guess the word 'peat' is the problem? There was only 33.3% of the cactus compost anyway in 'my mix' so the percentage of actual peat would have been around the 20% mark....25% at most I would have thought. Perhaps I need to find an alternative to the cactus mix or use even less?
The site you linked me too is one that I already have bookmarked on the computer and have read believe it or not, when I first started to (try to!) grow the Adeniums in Spring. Perhaps I should have read it more thoroughly. I just hope the root nubs that were just beginning to sprout will get going and pull it round again, but I'm afraid to water it now to help them along. Suppose I will just have to hope that it's got enough moisture in the caudex for it to survive, it doesn't appear to be getting any softer and only a couple of leaves have dropped so far.
Thanks for your interest. Will keep you posted on it's progress.......or not as the case may be : ¬ (
Gill.

Check out the Thai mix on that link! :-)

"THAILAND MEDIA: Media is a mix of clay, pig manure, coconut husk chunks, semi-composted Samanea saman (Rain tree) leaves and some coco peat as well as rice husk charcoal."

Now there's some stuff you won't find at your local Home Depot!

I can supply the pig manure and clay, anybody got the other ingredients? Sounds like a real smelly recipe to me!
Gill.

hello, Gill, just read your post on your adenium ailing. How is it doing now after your repotting it? I hope that it is OK. Happy New Year.
sue

Hi Sue, It's still with us, just! Lost a few leaves, gone yellow, caudex is still on soft side. Resisting the temptation to have look to see if those root nubs have grown any more, fingers still firmly crossed. Keeping on dry side and hoping for the best otherwise it's back to search for more seeds.
Happy New Year to you also, and hope you had a good Christmas!
Gill.

Please, please, please use a good soil mix...

anything with peat is NOT COMPATIBLE WITH CONTAINER PLANT HEALTH

'X'....ok, ok...I hear you loud and clear....no need to SHOUT! (: ¬ O)
Had actually already read your thoughts on peat back on the palm/cycads forum re the Cycas Revoluta problem, so realise you feel 'quite' stongly about it's use.
I thought I had done a good job as an equal ratio of a top brand UK cactus compost, perlite and sharp grit is what I had used. The cactus compost which looked and even felt (gritty)like our John Innes loam based potting soils, also had other additives such as grit, bark chips etc, so this too would have lessened the actual peat content of my home made mixture...obviously by not enough. The water drains almost instantly through it's pot and it has never been allowed to stand in water for any length of time. So, I was quite surprised, not to mention dissapointed to have this happen to my DR.
Right then, what would YOU suggest as a suitable mix please?
Gill.

Hello GW/Plumie Friends,
First let me say, Happy Freakin' New Year! :) I hope that everyone had a nice holiday and will strive for good health, love, laughter and prosperity in this new year.

Secondly...thanks to many of you, not to mention names, (but Lauri, Gill, Karyn, ahem...) I am now also addicted to Adenium. (Feel like I should be in an AA meeting. "Hi, My name is Karen and I have a plant addiction. It's been two days since I have bought any seeds, and one week without a cutting") Ya'all had to go and post your gorgeous photos and it's not bad enough that I have a Plumeria habit, passiflora habit, a quickly rising brugmansia habit, but now I've added on to it. I went and bought a bunch of adenium seeds, and have done extensive research to find out the best method to germinate them, however, I see so many conflicting methods. I would very much appreciate if those of you who have had success could help me out with some germination tips so I don't kill off all these seeds. I can usually figure it out, but these are different for me. I'm not so confident. I realize that most of you soak them for a few hours, and a seed mat is essential, but I'm confused as to what type of medium to put together. Any and all suggestions are so very welcome. I as well as Gill am very interested in what you consider a good soil mix for adenium seeds X, but please, no yelling :)

Happy growing!
Karen R.

Hi Karen,

No matter what the previous shouting was all about (lol) or has to do with anything horticultural I will have to disagree about peat. We have been growing plumeria for almost forty years and we are a professional Apocynaceae production grower and you have personally seen our plumeria and every nursery container over two thousand (at present) have peat in the mix. In addition, all close to one thousand of our pacypodium, several hundred Adenium Obesum and Euphorbia Milii Giant Hybrids have peat in the mix. Also, another thousand Adenium Obesum X Swazicum and Euphorbia Milii Supergrandiflora coming in two weeks will be planted in a mix containing peat. I have been a professional grower for over fifty years and have and continue to use peat in my mixes without issues. In fact Paul known as "geodude" on many forums a graduate geologist and hydrologist uses our standard potting mix with peat.

If it can wait I will give you all the instructions and potting mix you will need when you come to pick up the sodium lights. However, for germinating seeds I use a mix containing coir, two sizes of Horticulture pumice and two sizes of perlite this works very well in our greenhouse propagation system. Bev had to have a surgery last week as expected I will give you the details when I see you or you can give me a call on my cell. Hope you had a good time on your trip.

{{gwi:869}}

Hi Karen No3, hey, so glad to read I was part of the squad that got you addicted to DR's! haha! It's great fun isn't it?
I saw my first DRose in Bangkok in 05, and had no clue as to what it was as I'd never seen anything remotely like it before. I took a pic of it (there's another addiction I could pass onto you BTW) and had it ID'd on GW, the rest as they say is history!
9 of my eBayUK 10 seeds sprouted in around 4 days. They were soaked for 3hrs and planted 1cm deep. I used my mix (errrr, as mentioned above) and kept it quite moist as that again was what I read on the site below, also recommended by 'Kimisdad' earlier in this thread. They were in a sealed container in the airing cupboard which is kept quite warm at around 25-30c by the hot water system in there. The 10th one took a day longer to emerge and they all grew at least 4 small leaves but died off at intervals through various ways, bugs, knocking a tip off etc etc.
I am determined to have another go if my current plant does not pull through. In fact I'm going to look now on ebay again as the other day there were no DR seeds offered. Probably due to the time of year no doubt, so I may stand more chance later on...if it ever warms up here! (currently -2C) There's no more leaf yellowing/drop to date thank goodness, but tomorrow's another day : ¬ )
Gill.

First of all, I did not say that the cause of the problem was the peat, I just expressed my thoughts on how I think it is a poor choice.

Kimisdad: obviously your experience overrides anything anyone else says, if you are successful then by no means should you change. I think peat can be used to the growers advantage in certain situations, and you have figured that out.

Peat lasts about 12-18 months +/- in a potting mix before it begins to decompose and create problems. The use of peat on a professional level, where vigorous tropical species are being grown and repotted as needed, is not necessarily detrimental.

The use of peat can hurt the home grower who does not understand soil physics and who does not have the resources to repot often. Why is it that most nursery houseplants, annuals, and some tropicals are grown in peat? It is cheap, and works well for the short term - both good things for a commercial grower. How about landscape trees or slow growing tropicals/ palms that a nursery has to maintain for many years before a sale is made? These soil mixes usually do not contain much peat. Pine bark and other "drainage" material is commonly used. Check for yourself.

Let me make 2 suggestions:
1) Read this, written by someone who understands and writes better than myself. At the very least you may learn a few things. On the other hand, it may completely redefine how you grow your plants.
2) Forget about what anyone else tells you, go ahead and buy 2 or 3 of the same plant, almost anything will do, and try some side-by-side comparisons utilizing different soil mixes. That's what I did over 10 yrs ago - not because I read something somewhere. but because I had to see with my own eyes. I have never looked back.

We are all trying to accomplish the same thing, I'm just trying to help out others because personally I have seen dramatic improvements across the board by not using peat.

x

'X' what a read that link was! The debate about peat could go on for ever more and a day I guess as everyone has, and is entitled to their own opinions based on personal experience etc, which I DO appreciate believe it or not. Yes, we are all trying to accomplish the same things, wether we are succeeding or failing is determined by lots of factors, climate, choice of plants, even the size of your wallet/purse etc etc, some things we can alter, others are non altering influences.
Some of us like myself try to grow things that 'technically we are not supposed to be growing' such as plumerias, adeniums, palms of several kinds, strelitzias, dragon trees, and anything else I like the look of, I will continue to try anything! I even read one thread about someone like myself who was dabbling with the 'untouchables' who had a response from another grower who was 'miffed (sorry thats a UK expession, read that as annoyed) with folks asking for advice about things they were stuggling to grow outside their own zone'!!! I try and with help I do succeed to a certain level. I have learnt tons since I found GW in 06 and appreciate all info given, I am still learning as we all are I guess. No one knows everything. ha!
One question for you...I have seen 'turface' mentioned, I have not come across this in the UK, maybe because I've not looked in the proper place, but have never even heard of it and I too have been 'gardening' for some time. I am however quite familiar with what I buy as 'expanded clay granules' they are around 1cm in diameter and are mainly used as a decorative surface dressing or for pots to stand on, being kept moist to create a microclimate around a 'humid-air-loving' plant. I have yet to see them actually used within a soil. They always appear to be this 1cm size, never seen them crushed like what I imagine this turface stuff is. Is this what is being referred to? If so I could crush up some of my bagfull to create some of these chips as it is now obvious I need to ammend things slightly.
Thanks : ¬ )
Gill.

Dear X,

When I have more time to respond thouroughly to your "link" I will do so. The following some boring reading from some of my prior posts on another "plumeria forum".

"You have had drainage issues because of your soil design. Second, you have used manure and high organic mixes that do not work well in our area for plumeria let alone in an area where length of day is short. And all the issues have NOTHING to do with peat in the mix as we have used peat for over thirty years in ALL our mixes and continue to do so. Total working content of a mix is more important then one item for CEC and all other issues.

We have spent the time and money to perfect our soil mixes. I have used the advice of Soil and Plant Labs soils engineers for over 40 years. (http://www.soilandplantlaboratory.com/) We also test every mix and modified mix in the lab. With all due respect to everyone on the container forum, I feel much more comfortable with the findings from our professionals at Soil and Plant Labs. In addition these CEC discussions are mostly a mute point with the latest technology from many labs on foliage and leaf feeding. If one feeds only in the container they are at a serious disadvantage as per the latest horticulture science. Soil issue correction from foliar application has been around for many years. Many plumeria growers dont seem to have the grasp of horticulture and the benefit of its science led technology.

Over the years we have sent foliage samples to the lab. for analysis this is the bottom line the contents of the plant one is growing. With this analysis we can and do the necessary corrections to our fertigation and foliar/leaf feed program. All the science in the world is a guessing game unless one determines the final result based on lab tests.

Now lets do the Bonsai thing: I studied bonsai with John Naka the foremost master in his time. I have never ever made a derogatory comment about Bonsai Growers as I am one and have been since 1955. Bonsai Containers are mostly squat other than cascade style so what are we talking about? I say how many plumeria have these container masters grown? I am not concerned about PWT as it does not exist to a extent with my plants and it has zero effect on my trees. In fact I would bet I have less issues with soil saturation because of my mix than most.

Because of my style of growing many of the concerns others have are simply mute. I have and can grow in clay or what ever the medium and have a highly oxygenated soil and produce high quality plumeria with the specific methods I use. I suggest you will need to do some study on 12% Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid, Sea Weed Extract, Mycorrhizal Fungus, potassium silicates and carbon uptake to understand what I am talking about. In addition, where is the science on what you are reading? Where is the proof of all this in regards to plumeria?"

"S---t earlier you stated your soil was compacted or you had soil breakdown. It is extremely difficult to visibly assess these issues accurately. If one studies the content of a nursery container they would see that compaction in a container in the short term is virtually impossible. Containers that contain a soil-less mix when less then two years old are nearly impossible to compact due to the fact of the high percent of organic mater. Organic mater will not allow a high compaction rate anywhere anytime. Next, worn out soil; Soil breakdown leading to compaction rarely takes place in a container in less than two full growing seasons and it is normally caused by a loss of organic matter. A large percentage of organic matter used in modern soil-less mixes has two years or more of longevity. It is a fact that most bagged mix manufactures test their soils for this very issue. One may see some soil breakdown in the late season of the third year and almost always in the fourth year. The easiest way to tell that your containers material is loosing its organic matter is the soil level in the container drops over the initial soil settling from the first several watering. If you pot your plants at a consistent depth from the top rim of the container it makes this visible signal more apparent. We have grown trees without repotting in our mix for as long as six years and never repotted with no detrimental effects to trees health or slow down in growth or flowering. However, five years for our large container is when we try to cut roots back and replenish the soil on the bottom and sides without breaking the root-ball. We never bare-root or pull the dirt away from the trees main root mass. Up-potting is dependant on the readiness of the plants (see above).

When a grower perceives his containers soil on the verge of breaking down IE loss of organic matter the following remedies are available: Water container with Humic Acid as per manufactures directions. Do this with the container moist not dry. DO NOT FERTILIZE with the humic acid application. Reduce humic acid quantity (dose) by at least 40% if you have used a hard type/pelletized fertilizer in the last thirty days, and if you have added a time release fertilizer in the past three months. This will prevent fertilizer damage as the humic acid will shortly make the all Nitrogen fertilizer available to the plant. The humic acid will add good microbes to the soil. In addition, humic acid will balance the water holding capacity and drainage of the media. Next, inoculate the soil with a mycorrhizal fungus to assist retrieving the 'nutrients to the plant. This is a lot cheaper and less heart breaking than losing those special expensive plant/plants."

{{gwi:869}}

X,

With all due respect to the writings of "Al" on the Garden Web Forums and I do agree in principle to SOME of what he says. My comments is not to be argumentative as we ALL are in the learning process. Soil break-down in container growing is subject that I have more experience with than the average person. In addition, "soil breakdown", "compaction", "cation exchange (CEC)", "perched water table (PWT)"*, are issues the California Nursery Industry has more experience than the rest of the world as we know it combined and the Oregon Tree Growers are a close second. This is a 5-6 billion dollar industry in CA alone and brings the latest guide-lines to a grower and or hobbyist on a constant basis. I have and was involved in laboratory soil studies from the early 1960s. As a professional grower I do what I am advised by the scientist guidelines from the testing labs. We do not use some professional amateur on a forum. This X becomes the bottom line when big money and your livelihood are involved. We grow thousands of plants every year. Peat is not a danger to plants and on and on and on. Available are other products that can be a substitute for peat however using the evening news tactics of mellow drama is not appropriate in any discussion. TRUE facts about ones growing/potting soil mixes coming from a known, trustworthy and professional (i.e. soil laboratory) source with lab print-outs is appropriate. Anyone can read books etc. come on a forum site unseen and confuse, use or educate the audience. I am not an expert however very experienced and have the ability to sort out some of these issues. We all must ask ourselves the question: Do we have the appropriate horticultural knowledge to even make headline statements? First issue, there is NO studies, scientific evidence or qualified references for your statement. You must remember this big question; how much peat are you talking about in proportion to the rest of the potting mix? It would be helpful for all to be fed information on a rational bases rather than using a scare tactic. How much does peat have to do with Plumeria growing? Point me to the science! Question everyone and everything you read. It is our responsibility to be accurate and forthright when we educate those around us.

{{gwi:869}}

*perched water table (PWT) is an inaccurate geological term for plant container growing. It has been inappropriately used by the horticulture industry for many years. By definition it is inaccurate.

Kimisdad - first of all, the subject matter of this post is Adenium, not Plumeria. These plants are related, but are not necessarily grown in the same way.

Second of all, I'm not trying to scare anyone. I have seen for myself what happens to soils high (>1/3 volume) in peat and other organic materials that decompose readily. The bottom of the container mix becomes a muck, and if/ when the soil dries out, the roots die along as well presumably because the substrates become difficult to rewet, not to mention the lack of aeration that also suffocates roots.

Vigorous plants that grow quickly and whose roots can colonize a pot in a growing season do not show these ill effects as readily. Plumeria I think would qualify as such. Adenium...not so sure, they are a little different.

I have no doubts that the agricultural industry puts out substantive information about horticulture. But is it not true also that commercial growers and hobbyists have a different agenda? Business is business, a profit must be turned. This undoubtedly factors into the choices of materials, equipment, etc. The best product for a particular need may not be the cheapest. Nor may the cheaper alternatives be effective. These are decisions that are faced everyday by businesses across the world. Peat moss is adequate to meet the needs of commercial growers. That doesn't mean that we as hobbyists should not strive for a higher level.

On a side note, I am intimately involved in the healthcare industry. It is a bigger corporate sector than agriculture on many levels. I can assure you that piles of bull-you-know-what are pushed around, all in the name of profit and other selfish goals. I do not for a second believe that agriculture is any different. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but if the brainpower conducting horticultural experiments is equivalent to that which studies medications, disease and quality of life, then we are all in trouble. Not that the Cali or Oregon braintrust are intentionally deceitful, but one must be skeptical of everything. A great quote I heard once that I will never forget, "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see, and all will be well".

I have done my own side-to-side comparisons, non-scientific but informative nonetheless. Container mixes without peat hands done resulted in healthier plants. In fact, I would love to prove the point to others. I have a bunch of Adenium seedlings, that will need potting on in the spring. I will grow several in a typical, over-the-counter peat based mix with a little perlite added (because that seems to be a "popular" choice), and compare that to similar plants in various non-peat mixes. I will report back periodically with results. It should be fun. Unscientific of course, seedlings will not be identical clones, other variables, etc...but it will be an educational venture.

x

X,

You make some good points however this is a plumeria forum to educate people about plumeria. That is why my comment "what does this have to do with plumeria".

You cannot put the Medical Profession and the Green Industry in a side by side comparison. There is graft and corruption in all ways of life. Our business deals with a live commodity where cheap does not get it done. If the plant is not presentable as in good health, disease and pest free and does not get to market all is lost. The medical profession is based on a consumer with the necessity for staying alive and with few choices. The medical industry can shove a person out of the door of a hospital dead and collect their money. That does not happen in our industry we either deliver a good product or we starve. Our clientele is based on choice buy or not buy.

"I have seen for myself what happens to soils high (>1/3 volume) in peat and other organic materials that decompose readily. The bottom of the container mix becomes a muck, and if/ when the soil dries out, the roots die along as well presumably because the substrates become difficult to rewet, not to mention the lack of aeration that also suffocates roots".

X, with that statement though somewhat correct I sincerely believe you are not at all educated about commercial growing. No experienced commercial/professional grower grows in a potting mix that you describe. Your impressions I believe come from manufacturers of products that serves the industry of hobbyist and collectors not the professional grower. I will readily admit I know nothing about your business, the medical profession. And I seriously believe you are in same position when it comes to being a horticulturist. I said in my previous post: "You must remember this big question; how much peat are you talking about in proportion to the rest of the potting mix?" Now we have after the fact of the large print you are attempting to qualify the quantity and add "other" organics into the fray.

"anything with peat is NOT COMPATIBLE WITH CONTAINER PLANT HEALTH"

According to your remarks there would never be a healthy well grown plant if peat is in the mix. Your above statement is what concerns me as it is so distant from the truth its pathetic and offensive. Like it or not I say to you what I would say to my own sons all five of them mature men oldest being in his fifties youngest over forty. Also, what I say is not to be taken personal it is truthful and may be helpful to sharpen your thinking when it comes to horticulture and growing plumeria.

{{gwi:869}}

K

"You make some good points however this is a plumeria forum to educate people about plumeria. That is why my comment "what does this have to do with plumeria"

I did not start this thread about adenium.

"X, with that statement though somewhat correct I sincerely believe you are not at all educated about commercial growing."

I think you misunderstood...I was not referring to commercial mixes with that statement, I meant to describe the basic soil mixes I used to use. The point I was trying to make was for example, when I go to a local nursery, I see that the trees/ shrubs are for the most part grown in mixes that have lots of bark fines and perlite, I've even seen ground up styrofoam, but I have no idea what that does long-term. Annuals, bedding plants, lots of houseplants...these I see growing in peat based mixes. Those plants don't have the same shelf life as trees. So their soil make-up reflects this. Am I wrong?

"According to your remarks there would never be a healthy well grown plant if peat is in the mix"

You're right, my statement was too strong. But why do you take such offense? I'm not offended by any of your statements.

greenclaws

I'm sure you can find something similar to Turface by another name. The 1cm clay granules you describe may be something very different, I don't know.

Turface and similar clay aggregates are very popular in Bonsai. Maybe a search of local Bonsai vendors would turn something up? There's a similar product called Haydite, which also is probably not available in the UK.

A quick google search for UK turned up something called "Tesco's premium lightweight cat litter", which is a high fired clay, very similar. Hope that helps.

I have to make several points before this gets any more out of hand.....
1. I posted the original thread as several of us are growing them and we have previously discussed Adeniums on here as they seem to fit into several categories and do not have one one their own. I am sorry if this was the wrong thing to do.
2. I did not intend this to turn into an on line battle between other members. Again, I apologise to everyone, on all counts.
3. I consider the matter closed and suggest if any more opinions need to be expressed they are done via email.
4. Anyway, no more of this, I'm off to look in the cats litter tray for some clay granules now.
Gill.