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many_hats

Problem with face-checking in engineered hardwood

many_hats
15 years ago

My mom had engineered hardwood (Mannington New Hampshire Hickory Plank) installed in her new condo (kitchen, living, dining, bedrooms) about 3 1/2 years ago. It's over a gypcrete-type base and was a glued floating floor purchased from and installed by a reputable flooring company. She lives in Alberta, Canada which sees cold, dry winters. She runs 2 humidifiers from October to April and keeps humidity about 35%. Two issues soon became apparent.....

One was the unevenness of the floor. In many, many places you can feel the boards moving as well as see the movement when you walk. The installer checked for "pinch points" and couldn't find any. He said the gypcrete was level within the allowable tolerances specified by the manufacturer. Mannington reps came and looked at it. Everyone involved claimed they'd never seen this.

The second and biggest issue is that lot of face-checking soon became evident. Finally, last fall the flooring company decided to replace it. They delivered the new wood in September but couldn't install it till this past week. It sat in the condo in an unused bedroom since last fall.

This week the installers came and ripped up some of the old flooring and found that the gypcrete is not level in places which they said they will level with a levelling compound. So perhaps that will solve the unevenness problem.

BUT they also found that the *new* wood in the boxes was also face-checked in many places. Initially the company wanted to reorder the wood and Mannington said they would "double-inspect" it prior to shipping. My concern is that if it has face-checked twice, it will eventually happen again. They offered to order a different type of Mannington engineered wood but we are unsure what to select.

Any thoughts on the checking issue from flooring pros? Any suggestions for other types of Mannington engineered hardwood product (that isn't a big upcharge) that won't give such grief? This situation is stressing my 80 year old mother immensely.

Comments (12)

  • jerry_t
    15 years ago

    I'm taking you for your word about keeping the RH at or above 35%. But that sure sounds like the result from extremely low humidity .... say 20% or lower.

    Does she have any vent-free gas appliances such as non-vented gas logs?

  • many_hats
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    She has a gas fireplace that is vented to the outside. There are no other gas sources. For heat she has hot water / baseboard heaters so there's no way to add humidity so that's why she uses the 2 portable ones.

    The flooring salesperson advised going with the engineered hardwood as opposed to regular full-thickness hardwood flooring b/c of that type of heating and the climate being dry in winter.

    Is all engineered hardwood prone to checking? Any species better than others? I can't seem to find much info about this. Thanks for any help.

  • glennsfc
    15 years ago

    I have seen face checking often with engineered wood.

    Be careful with the gypcrete issue. Gypcrete has been known to be problematical for some flooring installs, so I am not as surprised as the Mannington reps are about the 'movement problem' with your floor.

    Make sure a leveling compound is used that is compatible with Gypcrete...not all are. There are some made specifically for smoothing and filling Gypcrete. Search the internet for recommended brands. I remember seeing an advertisement claiming 'suitable for use over Gypcrete'...but I cannot remember the product name or manufacturer.

    Good luck.

  • jerry_t
    15 years ago

    Hickory does not lend itself well to climate and moisture extremes. It is more unstable than most domestic wood species.

  • glennsfc
    15 years ago

    The issue with Gypcrete was poor bonding of adhesives. Get the species your mom wants, but Jerry is correct regarding moisture extremes.

    A sawn veneer product will have less checking than those produced by the rotary peel method. The difference here is how the veneers are cut from the log. One is sawn while the other is peeled from the log (much like peeling an onion).

  • PRO
    WF Smith, Inc.
    15 years ago

    jerry t,

    DW likes the look of Hickory for a remodel we are doing. Your post has me a bit worried about that.

    We get humid summers and dry winters, controlled as best as we can with the HVAC. We were seriously considering an engineered Hickory - is that a mistake? We are already concerned about our 110 lb. dog and concrete subfloor.

    What is face-checking, btw? I'm a flooring rookie...

  • many_hats
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Jerry t,

    You mention "domestic wood species" so I'm thinking that means we should pass on the species like sapele, tigerwood, etc.?? Four of the suggested Mannington options they gave my mom that are in the same color range as her hickory that they said would be less prone to checking than hickory are Madison oak, sapele, Bennelong cherry and Canelo teak. I think at least 2 of those are from tropical places (and the teak and cherry are a lot more money) so I'm still confused about the checking issue--which species would be less likely to check? Thanks.

  • jerry_t
    15 years ago

    And I was trying to be so careful how I worded that :). Hickory is fine to use. NOFMA has a well written article on selecting a species that I will link to below.

    Checking is not a common problem one will run into everyday. It is where the wood drys out too much and starts to split in the top face (wear) layer of an engineered wood. Inside environments should be maintained at above 30% RH. Some parts of the country the inside RH will drop down to the teens or single digits during the heating season. That is where dry cupping or checking can occur. If you are partial to an exotic wood, most will work if they are manufactured correctly, installed correctly and maintained correctly.

    When i asked about non-vented gas logs, they can be problematic too because they emit huge amounts of moisture into the inside environment. If a house is too tight you can get condensation forming on colder flat surfaces. That can cause the wood to gain too much moisture, then when it drys out it can and will check. Too high of an RH level is just as bad as too low.

    Not every single home built in the US is a prime candidate for a wood floor. The manufacturers recognize that and throw the responsibility of maintaining the RH levels on the end user. Fair or not, that's the way the current system works.

    Here is a link that might be useful: NOFMA species selection

  • many_hats
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Jerry, thanks for the reply and the link to that article. I just checked in quickly before going to work but will read the full article tonight. I also did a quick search of the FCI database and saw an article on imported wood so will have to read that too. We're going looking at wood tomorrow as my mom is living with a partially ripped up floor and not enjoying it of course :(

    Thanks again. I really appreciate all of the help here!!

  • many_hats
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I have another question for you experts....

    Today I went looking at engineered hardwood and tried to get some questions answered. When the salesperson said that engineered hardwood (as well as solid hardwood) isn't recommended for installation in condos above the second floor I was pretty surprised; since my mom's condo is on the fourth (and top) floor he said that really wasn't optimal and we should be looking at something else. He said it's harder to maintain decent humidity above that and it "wasn't as stable." I've never heard this before and am sure a lot of condos have hardwood but I just want to check this out. Thanks once again.

  • jerry_t
    15 years ago

    There is a known phenomena referred to as "stove pipe effect" or stove piping. It is a legitimate concern for the upper floors in hi-rise condos. I hear of this problem mainly on the upper east coast region. Heat rises and it can create a problem in the heating season known as dry cupping in engineered wood. Solids can be a problem too but in that instance solids would gap, instead of cup.
    Inside RH levels have to adequately maintained within a reasonable range to over come that. I don't believe a 4th floor would be that big of a deal, but I am not an expert on this subject.