I think she's goofy. I'd go to a better flooring store, one with salespeople that actually know their products.

Slate doesn't need to be sealed, but can be 'just in case'. Gives you an extra layer of control [shiney, matte, wet look, etc.] It isn't really porous, and is famous for hiding dirt, wear and tear.

But there is quite a bit of it out there that's poor quality, including some of HD's. Basically, you have to be willing to toss quite a lot of it, it will be too prone to flaking. Good quality slate hardly flakes at all.

Check out this thread on Mondragon's famous floor:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/flooring/msg111929187136.html
Here's a preview:

As to marble, not every stone sold as 'marble' is porous, though most of the paler ones are. Sealing will eliminate most moisture issues, but you need an installer that uses the correct products to install it, etc. Marble will etch if exposed to acids, more an issue in the kitchen than the bath. It is a classic, beautiful choice, and one that will last for life with a little care and some simple precautions [like don't dye your hair in a white marble shower].

Try going to the bath forum, searching for 'marble' there-- lots of great info and advice.

Thanks for the response . Actually I told her that what she was saying did'nt make sense . I had seen Mondragon's floor and post when I was looking for info on slate . That's why I wanted to see it in person. I have already purchased the
marble for my bath - it's the darker black / grayish . I know it will be slippery but plan to use alot of rugs . Thanks for the reassurance - she almost had me
doubting myself and my choices . LOL

The salesperson was right to some extent. Most of the colorful Indian and Chinese slates are porous, shale very easily (flake and split) and are not the quality that the black or green Vermont-type slates are. You have to be willing to have 30-40% discards to end up with a floor as nice as Mondragon's, and then you'll still have to deal with some shaling and unevenness. It's just the nature of that type of slate. It's a sedimentary rock, and as such, it tends to split along the lines of original compression of the sediment. It's also relatively soft and scratches easily. It's not a stone I'd put in my kitchen, although I admire it's beauty. For those who are willing to put up with it's faults, and are fully informed about them, perhaps it's a stone they can live with. At any rate, HD is NOT a source for quality natural stone tile for the most part, and you'd be better served by seeking out a better quality product. Your discard rate with HD slate is liable to approach the 40-50% rate. Even if you buy a more expensive slate elsewhere, the difference in quality vs. reject rates will more than make up the $$ difference.

Marble is also a relatively soft stone, and it needs to be kept sealed. It's also prone to etching from acidic products, and sealing does NOT prevent this, so a pH neutral cleaner will be needed to maintain it. If you have acidic water, you may see some spots regardless of vigilant wiping. Keeping soap scum at bay on a marble shower is a bit of a chore, as you can't use some of the best cleaning products designed for that as they will damage the marble. Squeegeeing after every shower will help, as will using an appropriate type Scotch brite pad and a goodly amount of elbow grease. Or, just have your marble honed already, and you won't see the etching so much or have to worry so much about which products will mar the shine. They'll still etch the stone, it just won't be as apparant when it's honed.

I had no intention of purchasing the slate at HD - just wanted to take a look
at it . I have thought about the cons of slate but I am also thinking about the
cons of other flooring choices . Wood will not hold up well to moisture either.
Carpet does'nt hold up well to anything and is not suitable for radiant heat applications . I also looked at cork and thought it was just plain ugly . The
style of my home is modern rustic and I think that the shaling and uneveness
will fit nicely in that decor. It will certainly have alot more character than ceramic.
As for the marble - all tile showers should be sealed atleast once a year , so I would be doing that regardless of what I use . My water is on a whole
house water treatment system . I don't expect any of the products I use to
last 30 yrs - I will probably be sick of them and want to change them in 10
yrs. LOL . I get bored easy ! Thanks for the info - Faye

I was looking for slate, too. Got same advice from the folks at HD and Lowes. The guy at Lowe's favored a gorgeous glazed porcelain tile, Copper Hill 13 x 13 sos 238768. It won't have all the different colors of natural mixed slate (each piece looks varied, and not exactly like the other pieces, but the pieces are more similar to each other than with natural slate) but I wanted a more uniform look. I also want very thin grout lines, 1/16" and he said that could be done with this tile. It would be harder to do with natural slate. Ideal would be rectified tile but they don't carry it.

They have a different color variation and if I wanted to mix them they'd look nice, I think, but I like the copper so well I'm going for that in both the laundry and bathroom.

I really didn't think I'd be happy with anything but natural stone and spent hours and hours looking at travertine, ceramic, slate, etc etc. This is my favorite, it will look gorgeous next to the wood floors - I'm very excited about it! Of course I'll torture myself a bit more, looking at a "real" tile store if I have time.

Wanted to mention that some colors of slate are much less flake prone than others: Earth and rust tend to flake less than multi-color, for instance.

And a good slate isn't at all bothered by water like wood or laminate. Non-slip and low maintenence: what's not to love? In fact, I'm doing one of my showers in slate and copper sheets.

I think a rough slate floor in an otherwise sleek modern space would be way cool... one of those 'home run with the bases loaded' ideas.

Slate (and other stone surfaces) are fine for kitchens and baths that are strictly for "show". But if you're a chef (or a full-time mom), standing on stone over time will absolutely KILL your back and feet. In fact, one of the hottest selling items for high-end kitchens these days is a GEL MAT, because so many people with fabulously *looking* floors are realizing just how impractical they really are.

And it's not just standing on stone that will cause discomfort. FALLING on it will absolutely GUARANTEE broken bones. You don't have to be a regular klutz to fall down in your own kitchen. Just one little slip on a bit of spattered grease ... one tip of the chair you're standing on to reach that gravy boat ... or just one time of turning too quickly when you're wearing heels. Trust me, I've been there ... I don't care how fabulous the floor looks, falling down on slate/ceramic/marble can be worse than taking a flying leap in a parking lot.

Injuries aside, there's also the issue of dropping things on the floor. A jar of peanut butter dropped onto a slate/ceramic/marble floor will almost certainly not only break, but SHATTER into hundreds of shards (and could even crack the floor). That same jar dropped onto a hardwood, vinyl, cork, or even linoleum floor will just roll over to the refrigerator. I've even dropped glasses onto my linoleum floor ... they actually bounce.

Trust me ... if yours will be a FUNCTIONAL kitchen, avoid stone. There's now an entire universe of other materials out there!

Mondgragons floor makes my heart sing. :)

I have to strongly disagree with manhattanmatt: the alleged problems of stone and tile are vastly overplayed in the home market.

If you do spend hours and hours at the stove or sink then yes, by all means, put down a mat regardless of the flooring.

And do be sure to use a non-slip floor like slate, not something icey slick when wet or greasey-- like vinyl-- if you are worried about falling.

If you already have orthopedic issues, take a good suplement [MSM], and exercise-- more people damage their bodies by too much pampering rather than too little. Balance issues? Yoga or Tai Chi will help enormously, no matter your age. Fitness isn't only about living longer, its about living better.

But remember that in much of the country virtually every home is built on a concrete slab. So are most schools, stores, and public buildings, all accross the nation. The thin layer of linoleum, carpet or vinyl typically used there offers no real padding. The hardness issue has to be kept in perspective.

Will things break more often when dropped? Yes. Same is true of granite counters, cast iron sinks, etc. But sometimes things break, sometimes they don't. The surface they land on is just one of many factors that come into play. You learn to be more careful without even realizing it. My glass wear and plates didn't take a signifcant beating when I switched to granite and tile.

If stone and tile aren't for you, fine. And the hardness thing should indeed be one of the many things you take into consideration, but only one.

I've had unsealed, green, gauged slate from a stone store on my high use screen porch for years.
Flaking is not a problem.
Although there's a lot of texture, it's quite slick when wet... even for bare feet.
Dirt does accumulate in all that texture. If I wanted to get it really clean looking it would require either power washing or lots of brushwork.
Routine drips of coffee or wine clean up with no problem, oil spots do not.

I disagree with Oru.

Most homes are NOT built on a concrete slab. Most homes have basements.

The issue of standing on stone versus standing on most other surfaces killing your legs is NOT "overplayed". I've done both myself. There's a major difference.

And even the fittest and most agile among us occasionally slip and fall. Regardless of how healthy you are, falling on STONE will virtually guarantee a broken bone. Falling on cork, vinyl, hardwood, or even linoleum will likely NOT.

manhattanmatt- it depends upon where in the country you live if basements are routine or not. In Florida the houses are built on slab unless on a key- they must be built on stilts. Texas- almost impossible to have a basement in the hills/rocky areas. The cost of having to blast a basement is prohibitive to the average person. Wyoming- it depends- some areas have too high water tables due to farming irrigation- most are on slab or some have a partial crawl space. In the midwest almost everybody has a basement. Just depends.

Well...I couldn't resist coming in here with my own take of hard surface vs HARD surface flooring re: the kitchen environment.

When most of my work was exclusively high end vinyl flooring, I tore out many a ceramic tile floor because the homneowners couldn't stand "standing" on the stuff. They ususally replaced the tile with a vinyl representation of stone or tile. The patterns available in sheet vinyl flooring today very accurately match the natural stone or tile visual.

Of course, anything installed on a concrete slab will be inherently hard, so the advantage gained by using sheet vinyl, linoleum, cork or any other resilient material will be minimal, but it does increase safety somewhat. Most resilient materials are generally more slip resistant than most porcelain or ceramic tile choices.

The most comfortable floors to walk on are those resilient products that are installed over suspended wood contruction (i.e. wood joists and wood subflooring and underlayment).

If I absolutely had to have a stone or tile floor in my kitchen, then I would have resilient anti-fatique mats at the most used work stations. Commercial kitchens employ the use of these anti-fatigue mats, as most commercial kitchens are built on concrete floors.

However, I very much like the appearance of the natural product. In my opinion, there is no equal to the aesthetic appeal of natural stone, slate or porcelain tile.

Well you all make valid points that should be thought about . I currently
live in a house with a concrete slab floor . I did have a foot problem recently
(not because of floors) and the foot DR. said I should wear some kind of shoe
even in the house . He said nobody should go barefoot no matter what the
flooring . So I always wear slippers . I do agree that function is very important
and I cook a great deal . However - I also think "looks" matter , too .
Right now the issue of cleaning is my biggest worry - I don't want to be
constantly on my knees scrubbing it . I am considering installing one of those
wet/dry central vac systems and wondered if that would make cleaning easier .

I don't know much about wet/dry central vacuum systems. I will say that the new generation of vinyl products are very easy to clean.

I've installed a wet/dry, but haven't got to use it yet-- no flooring yet! Still, the idea of being able to wet clean all my floors without dealing with a single bucket of dirty water was more than I could resist.

The doctor who said no one should go barefoot ever is a..., well lets just be generous and say he's ill educated and misinformed, and maybe a little narrow minded.

How does he think we survived for millions of years without shoes?

Does he reccomend we never go any where without gloves? Burquas? Hard hats? Body armour?

If shoes are so great, surely it would be even better to put our feet in fiberglass casts 24/7/365-- even better protection!

That would lead to attrophy of the joints, muscles, nerves and tendons even more effectively than shoes, and his carreer of 'fixing' peoples feet would be even more lucrative.

When it comes to foot problems, shoes are far more often the cause than the cure-- corns, ingrown nails, hammer toe, bunions, athlete's foot-- all brought to you [or greatly exacerbated] by shoes. I'm including a link to some peer reviewed medical papers you may wish to aquaint him with.

Sorry for the rant...
Oru, proud member of the Society for Barefoot Living

Here is a link that might be useful: barefeet in medicine

I love that my floor is still brought up because I still love it.

I can't comment on it being hard on backs/feet because even though I'm 51 I'm always barefoot and have no back problems.

As far as maintenance, as my mother would say "we just can't have anything nice" - between our dog, and the visiting dogs, and the always-something-going-on in the garden so that in the spring and summer mud gets tracked in, and the big parties where the kitchen opens onto the back yard, and the opening and closing of the big table to fit more people so it's dragged across the floor, and the grease from the rangetop with all the wok cooking..... the floor doesn't show dirt, doesn't flake, and doesn't scratch. Or if it does, a wipe with a sponge makes it disappear. I don't wash it near often enough and when I do I pour cleaner on it, push a stiff bristle broom over it, and then use a wet/dry vac to pick up the dirty water.

Yay Mondragon!! Your floor is the inspiration for my upcoming slate kitchen floor! If mine looks even 1/2 as nice as yours I'll be THRILLED!

mom - what a delightful thing to find when I check in!

Here we are a couple of years later and I'm still really happy with it.

I don't know if it's too late, and I don't know what remains of the old postings about lessons learned, so here's a recap:

If you're buying less expensive slate, make sure and buy 1/4 more than you need. A lot of it will be unusable. But even with that it's still a bargain. It will also let you choose the stones that you really love because they're gorgeous.

If you like the multicolor look buy a few boxes of a lighter color. Most of ours were grey/purple/red, and we added some boxes of green/gold. It really makes a difference.

Before the installers arrive open all the boxes and sort through them. I did it in our driveway. One pile for unusable (some had these weird sharp extrusions that I didn't want underfoot, or really sharp edges where pieces had flakes off.) If you don't want to walk on it, put it in this pile

Another pile for partially usable, to use when they need to cut smaller pieces. Then sort the rest into special pretty, light colored, medium colored, dark colored, and grey/black. And in my case, green/gold.

We were doing an entryway, galley kitchen, and open dining area and decided to put all the grey/black in the entryway. Then I picked where the special pretty were going to go - one on each side of the dishwasher, a couple in the traffic area between the dining and kitchen. Put them where you'll see them

Then I told the installers to take one from each pile, then from the next pile, and so on. Once they got it they were really good about not putting two that looked the same next to each other. If you look at my floor in the picture up top you'll see it's nicely laid out.

I'd also suggest washing the tiles really well before they're installed. I had to wash them well inbetween install and grouting and some of them - the more reddish ones - had a lot of mud on them. You can also get more of a sense of the color.

I used a matte sealer; the next time I scrub it I'm going to add a shinier layer (Holloway House, recommended by people here.) I tried it in the entryway and I like the light sheen it adds.

You will not be able to use a sponge mop except for light cleanup (like in the winter when there's salt in the snow.) I still use the Hoover Floormate - pour on hot water and some cleaner, scrub a little with a stiff pushbroom, and then suck up all the water. It doesn't show dirt at all.

Sort through all the tiles

The issue of standing on stone versus standing on most other surfaces killing your legs is NOT "overplayed". I've done both myself. There's a major difference.

I'm sorry, but it is. There are some people for whom this is a real issue, and that can't be denied. But for most people, this is a non-issue. The easiest way to know if this would pertain to you is to think about when you're at the mall. Do your legs and lower back bother you from the time you get there until the time you leave? if so, you probably want a different surface for your floors at home. If not, don't even worry about it. This is a non-issue for you.

Hi,
Another person willing to weigh in--I love slate floors, & did them in our previous house & am about to do them again for a kitchen / entrance / mudroom area.

Slate should definitely be sealed you can get Miracle 511 at HD that works well. It leaves the stone natural looking -- no sheen (and makes clean up easier) Also use a grout release when grouting since the stone really wants to hang on to grout.

+1 on using the Hoover Floormate for cleaning!

+1 on cleaning before laying & making sure that you mix your color variations & sort for chipped/weird clefts etc. Dry lay if you can stand it and look carefully at your edges...

+1 on the poor quality of the slate at HD--this Indian is very soft & has bad gauging--so you can use it but will have to sort & will likely end up with lippage and continued flaking/spalling.

Best deal out there (unless you are in the Northeast) is Brazilian Slate--colors are gray, purple (plum), red, black & multi (that looks like the Indian) Last time I bought purple from Norstone (http://www.norstone.com/ rocktops is their retail arm) I'd post a picture but I have no idea how to do that yet! The link below is to the house where it is installed...

The installers said it was the best quality natural stone they had ever worked with. We ran it outside onto the patio and covered front porch (using modifed thinset) & it is standing up very well.

This time I'm laying Brazilian gray myself--smaller budget for this reno--so I'll see how I do. (It was a direct import that I picked up on Craigslist...)

An important consideration (as I've just found out) is if you are not laying directly on a slab is that your floor must be significantly beefier than for ceramic--look at the Deflecto calculator at John Bridges' Tile site--see http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl

Cheers!

Here is a link that might be useful: Brazilan Purple Slate Install

Just wanted to add my two cents to the notion that stone is too hard. I took a different approach and decided to take my cushion with me everywhere I go -- I wear Croc thongs in the house and it pads every step I take without the constriction of a shoe. Love them!!

same, only with Teva's and Birkenstocks