It only looks darker to me because it has a finish coat on it.

Are the two pieces the same species? There is a difference between how different species take stain. And a difference between how a solid wood and veneer like the plywood that you have pictured is stained. Your top piece is solid wood and the bottom piece is plywood. And, yes, it's 95% the same color, and within some people's acceptable variation when all of the pieces of the kitchen are put together and have that variation be pronounced and all over the kitchen. Do you have a picture of the cabinets as a whole group? Not isolated?

You're not going to be able to get them lighter. They would have to sand 1/8 to 1/4" of the wood off to even get the stain out of it. But, if they haven't been topcoated, you might be able to have them apply a red based stain on top of the java colored stain to give it a warmer undertone. The other remedy would be for them to make you new doors and drawer fronts and keep the face frames slightly darker.

The only leverage that anyone has in a situation like this is the reputation of the cabinet maker and/or any money that you have held back that is owed them. A first class outfit would have done a sample for you in the wood that you've chosen rather than having a generic wood sample for the stain. And they would have tweaked the stain recipe before it was applied to all of the cabinets and had you sign off on the recipe before staining. A second tier company will try to experiment with stains now to alter the color before sealing or make you new doors. A third class outfit would try to blow smoke at you. I think you know which kind of people you are dealing with here.

The clearcoat always darkens and richens the wood. Perfectly normal. But they should have communicated this with you from the beginning and given you a fully finished sample from which to choose your stain.

There's absolutely no way you should sue or get a lawyer involved unless you want to throw thousands of dollars at a them and end up exactly where you are right now but poorer. Better to spend the money buying new doors than to give it to a lawyer. Maybe the cabinet company would even make the doors at cost if you were nice about it and explained that you didn't understand what the clearcoat would do for the wood.

Even in the door under that sample, I see great variations in different shades of black/gray. I think the variation is acceptable for stained wood species. And do you know that the shade may even grow darker or brighter over time? I really don't think this warrants a lawsuit.

This is from someone, me to be specific, who ordered natural bamboo strand woven floor after having seen a house installed with the same product (same brand and model) that had a very bright outlook and then was shocked to see the amount of dark variations in the boards that arrived at the house. But after I embraced the unexpected variations, I am fully in love with my new floor.

My suggestion? Embrace the surprise, and be happy. That's what I would do anyway.

They had a finished door sample in their showroom which is identical to the little sample I have, and that was what I signed up for. It was this particular wood in this particular stain. It has clearcoat on it, I'm sure. Plywood looks the same as the cabinets (see the pic of the sample against the cabinet door). It's made by Huntwood.

And I hate the black cabinet look. It matches nothing in my great room (it's an open layout). I wanted brown, I already chose darker than I needed (they had rather poor selection of stains), so this is a complete disaster.

Please see picture of group of cabinets in the post below.

Here's a cabinet section and I added a cutout of the sample for comparison.

Can you simply return the product?

Your best recourse would be to withhold final payment if you haven't already made it or dispute the charge if it's on a credit card. I agree that suing them would cost a lot of money and probably get you nothing. Another recourse would be to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau which may or not get any results but would certainly get their attention. Similarly just sending them a lawyer's letter might also get their attention.

I am so sorry. I don't see at all how that could be considered within an acceptable variation, they look like 2 totally different colors to me.

Have you paid the last installment? I agree with disputing the charge if you have. I'm sorry they are not even trying to work with you on it.

I paid the kitchen in full in advance. Nothing I can do about that. It's Huntwood, so it's not like some shady business, this was the last company in the world I expected to be royally screwed by like that. I chose them hoping if any issues might arise, a big company with big resources like that will resolve them quickly. I didn't expect them to behave like petty crooks they seem to be, not since it's actually their headquarters and I was dealing directly with their boss in town who practically told me to "f... off"" the way it looks.

If I sue (I will have to consult first of course to see if the lawyer thinks I have a solid case), they will have to compensate my expenses as well, the way I see it (if I win, of course).

Adding your 12/22 post here. I'm a little surprised not to see any mention of stain color not matching the sample in this one. Plenty of other issues unfortunately!

I've definitely found my cherry with cordovan stain to be changing slowly. The showroom samples are often several years old so it makes that there is a color variation. Now if you could just be assured that the color will lighten over time....

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to earlier post

This post was edited by oldbat2be on Fri, Jan 4, 13 at 7:37

SO you've got one post complaining that they cabinets aren't dark enough, and another complaining that they are too dark. Did you actually read the information that was provided you about your chosen wood species?

"The varied grain density of this wood specie can react adversely to some mid-tone stain colors. Such a reaction can display heavy grain "ticking" in a concentrated area and then show a virtual absence of grain in another location. This natural condition can result in a pronounced color variation"

"*Note: Colors shown are approximate and will vary from actual physical colors due to photography and monitor variations. Please see a current door sample or wood chip in your desired wood and stain color before ordering cabinets"

In black and white on the website.

You're experiencing buyers remorse over your choices. While some second guessing of yourself is to be expected, blaming the cabinet company for the natural variation in wood and waffling over whether or not the stain is dark enough needs to stop. Your cabinets are beautiful. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Here is a link that might be useful: Beech Characteristics

GreenDesigns,

The grain uneveness is a whole other problem, and I do understand the variation of the grain. I had some concerns about it, but it was the uneven blotchy stain that was worrying me most at the time and I was going to bring a few of the doors to Huntwood (the blotchy ones, not grainy ones). To be fair, on original sample the grain wasn't that bad as the stain was much lighter so the grain didn't stand out as much as with the black stain so that thread probably would never exist had I got the correct stain in the 1st place. So no, I don't really have a buyer's remorse as I technically did nothing wrong (except ordering cabinets from Huntwood, that was a mistake, I concur)

I actually discovered the wrong stain accidentally, a couple of days after we put up the cabinets (and after I posted that thread). I haven't seen the sample since I ordered the cabinets (5-6 weeks prior). So when they arrived I was surprised they were so black, but I thought I just chose the wrong stain, and that it was my mistake. I never doubted Huntwood. So I was focusing on the grain and suneven stain issues... and than I just got this random thought to dig out the old sample and compare it to cabinets that led me to the discovery.

OK, the relentless blaming of consumers and boilerplate defense of the renovation industry is getting on my last nerve.

It says to get a "current door sample or wood chip in your desired wood and stain color" in black and white on the website. Explicitly stating that the sample color is a good representation of the final finish color. Which it isn't, not by a long shot.

Nuieve, do you have other Huntwood showrooms near you? Could you innocently and anonymously collect other samples of your stain color, and also ask if it comes in a darker stain? This might be a way to trick them into giving you evidence that they screwed up the staining, if that's what happened.

GreenDesigns, I think you are being harsh. Yes SOME variation can happen, but if the sample is of that species and that exact stain I think MOST people would expect the cabinet to be a reasonably close match.

Do you consider the cabinets and sample to be a reasonably close match? I think they look pretty different. As in more than a shade or two off.

Fine print taken from the website is all well and good, but who determines what is an acceptable level of color variation? That's a cover their butt statement that could cover any number of sins.

I get it that sometimes we the consumer have unrealistic expectations, but to post fine print from the website and ask if they actually read the information is...... harsh. At least it sounds harsh to me.

Believe me sometimes it takes me ages to notice a really obvious defect and then I wonder how I could have possibly missed it.

OP again I'm sorry you are disappointed with your cabinets and that the attitude of the cabinet company seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Can you give yourself a week to get used to the color and see if it will grow on you? I just shy away from suing as it gets so expensive so fast. Maybe a letter from an attorney might be a first step.

Good luck!

Marcolo we were posting at the same time and I couldn't agree with you more.

I 2nd marcolo's advise. Maybe get some friends and family to go to the showrooms and get samples.

What's the color you picked? Kodiak?

FYI - I have Huntwood cabinets in Kodiak. I have my original color sample, the cabinets and a pint of the touch-up stain. If that is the color you picked, I'll take some photos for you. Email me and/or I'll check this thread.

When you use natural materials you get natural variation.

It can be starkly different sometimes.

Go to a hardwood dealer and compare just the same species in a random stack.

Diffferenc3es in grain (actually figure) of wood alter how it will accept dye, pigments, and just about any method of coloring except opaque paint.

Paint gets tripped up by surface differences like wood pores (painted oak looks like painted oak without a LOT of pore filling before painting).

The wood YOU get is very likely from a different tree, grown in a different location, under different conditions.

Production finishing does NOT mean the coloring is adjusted for every batch of wood.

I can make cherry sapwood (almost white) look like cherry heartwood.
It takes a LOT of time, mixing, and experimenting.
And if the finished product ends up being sunlight exposed the colors wander apart.

I find it far easier to cut away the sapwood than create a massive finish problem.

When I want things to come out even close in color, I use wood from a single tree, purchased all at once, often 'en boule.'

A fancy term for a stack of wood in the order it was cut from a single log.

Each tree yields two piles since the pith boards (the exact middle) are removed.
You can buy from the top or bottom of each stack, but generally not the middle (unless you buy all the wood above or below the piece you want).

If you want painted cabinets, get painted cabinets.
They can be made to match VERY nicely, especially with a wood like birch.

OK, this is a different situation than a small shop custom maker. It's a larger semi custom line from which you chose a standard wood in a stock color. That does change the expectations as to how much variation will be present. A small maker can cull more and give you more even results. You will pay for it in the cost for the additional waste though. A larger company uses a more varied mix of the species and the resulting variation will be more pronounced. On a very varied wood like beech, it wouldn't be uncommon for there to be several shade variations between the doors from different trees. And yes, as I mentioned in my first post it's within 95%. I meant that it's within 95% for variation from a wood that takes a stain very evenly, like a cherry. For a wood that comes in lots of varying shades like beech, the variation that you are experiencing is normal.

When you have cabinets that have already had the finish coat applied, the only color adjustment comes from a tinted topcoat, which is much less successful than an actual stain that penetrates the pores of the wood. It's used often on rubberwood and other cheap woods to make them appear to be "cherry" or "walnut" or other more desirable woods. The big downside to a tinted topcoat is that the inevitable chips will expose the wood underneath and it will be a significant color variation when compared with the wood that is still covered by the topcoat.

The solution here is to have new doors and drawers. But, given the fact that those you have are within the tolerances of the wood species, perhaps you should change to something that has less variation and a lighter stain in that as well since it darkens over time. If they were to do the new doors for you at cost, that would be a fair solution as you signed off on the existing wood and stain color and there is technically nothing "wrong" with the doors. There would be an upcharge from beech to cherry though, and that would be something that I would expect you to cover.

"And I hate the black cabinet look. It matches nothing in my great room (it's an open layout). I wanted brown, I already chose darker than I needed (they had rather poor selection of stains), so this is a complete disaster."

Your words above are where the problem lies. If they had a poor selection of stains, I would've chosen a different company to have gone with. I've been in a mess with a cabinet maker before and ended up with a kitchen that was NOTHING like I envisioned and had to live with it for several years until we moved. An attorney will likely solve nothing in your situation. Put your time, money, and energy into helping alleviate some of the situation, which may be new doors, etc.

Thankfully, in our current home, we are planning a kitchen overall and I am being VERY thorough about my choice of cabinetry and giving very little room for error on the part of the cabinet maker. It's tedious and annoying but I want to make absolutely sure I love what I get. I would never choose a color that I could not see several cabinets already assembled in that color and I would NEVER choose based upon a small sample board. But, that's all part of learning the hard way.

Good luck.

There are 15 different standard colors. You had 14 choices lighter than the color you chose.

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Did the OP actually say their color was Kodiak? Huntwood has a lot of other colors that are a slight upcharge beyond what is listed on their web site (beyond the special stains they list.) If that is Kodiak, I would be really disappointed too with what looks like black. My Kodiak cabinets match the sample exactly and are a rich brown stain. I have been in their showroom at their headquarters and the cabinets there were consistent with what I got. So, is that Kodiak.. or another stain like Espresso?

ajc: Huntwood is expensive, from what I compared to. I had expensive modifications, though. While their stains aren't custom, every other part of their service is custom as far as I know.

It's hard to capture their true color, but this photo is the closest (with the sample wedged in between.) The cabinets look darker than this in true light, but obviously nothing black-toned.

This post was edited by lolauren on Fri, Jan 4, 13 at 18:58

Pretty sure paid in full, and installed by owners, or under owners jurisdiction, is an indication of acceptance of product.. particular the installation aspect.

There me be some recourse for a splotchy door, or doors, but

Just an update, I talked with the director of Huntwood and after their rep came to see my kitchen we came to an agreement that I will get a kitchen replacement (upgraded to thermofoil/frameless) for a very reasonable price which I already placed an order for. So overall I'm pretty happy with how it all turned out even though it means a massive delay anyway, but at least now I can move on with my project.

So, you're not going with the same color as before... or well, the one you thought you were getting?

Wow, that's impressive!! Good for you!!

That's good of them!

(Wait, thermofoil's an upgrade?)

I wish I could locate my stain sample box (I think husband threw it out). The color you ended up with looks like ebony or a darker stain with sable or other dark glaze. I think I had a sample of the one you chose as well. I will look around some more but I'm thinking it's gone. Do you know if your company out sources their doors? I know many companies get their doors from Conestoga. Those are the samples I have (had). The cabinet color you have is at least two colors off. It almost looks like they used a darker glaze over a stain.

You want thermofoil instead of what you wanted first?

I would imagine with thermofoil, you eliminate the stain variables. If I were the company rep, I would want to be 100% sure that the customer would get a match to what they ordered.

Is your original color espresso? It is hard to get the espresso shade with using a wood other than cherry or a few others. With maple and like woods they do not always take a dark stain well. I think it likely someone tried to fix a blotchy stain with a dark glaze except they used too much. Doing a glaze over a dark stain on maple and like woods is fairly common in order to get the dark stain to look uniform. The cabinets you put in look like espresso with a heavy handed sable glaze. If it were me and really wanted the original I would try to make a deal for cherry in the color of stain you want. Cherry does darken over time though.

edited due to previous post doing a twin. .

This post was edited by jterrilynn on Fri, Jan 11, 13 at 22:38

I'm glad they are doing something, but are you familiar with thermafoil cabinets? Have you seen and touched them?
Just make sure you are going to be happy with your new cabinets and aren't left wishing you had saved the expense and kept your old ones!
I fear they may have you paying more money for a product that is actually cheaper.

Have you seen their price lists showing that the thermafoil cabinets are more expensive than the wood? Or did they just tell you they were an upgrade?

Just be a little careful here.

Ditto what Hoboken said. I had to read your last post twice as I have never heard of Thermofoil being an upgrade to stained wood. And I'm glad they're working with you on the resolution as I don't think your sample and final result are similar at all. Good Luck!

Euro thermofoil is an "upgrade" in slab doors in that it's more expensive than most basic stained woods. And it has zero natural variation of any kind.

I had thermofoil and would choose what you have over thermofoil any day of the week and twice on sundays.

BUT I don't know what "euro" thermofoil is

The thermofoil is glossy wenge, it's a very pretty finish and has a very euro look about it.