hi fori...

is this fridge question for the long-term in your remodel, or still just until the remodel happens?

if it's still just for the interim, i vote for across the adorable wall oven, next to the sink. it seems like the least disruptive change, while still in a handy spot.

is that about a 36" upper cabinet to the right of the sink now? what lowers will you lose?

but then you will have the issue of the fridge door and the wall; not sure if that will bug you.

Thanks IC. This is starting from scratch, I think, but we'd keep a similar layout to what's there (minus the pointless peninsula I hope. Maybe there's a coffin in there?) (and without the minipeninsula in the backside of the guy at the stove). Spouse wants the sink under the window which really leaves the only place for the cooktop in the same place too.

Maybe I could wall off the doorway to the foyer and put something on the end. (Bonus: I could recycle the door and molding elsewhere!)

So yeah, planning for the real remodel instead of finding a way to live with it.

oh wow!

hey, spouse gets to choose both the sink AND range location?! that's 2 out of 3; no fair. ;)

okay, well since this is the real thing, i think it goes where the adorable wall oven is. if the door opening remains, you won't bang the fridge door, either.

what about this idea do you think is "not great", though? because of maybe getting drinks out of the fridge from the family room? it seems like you have plenty of room for bev fridge/center or fridge drawer.

"coffin"... you are too funny. :)

Move the window and the sink over to the right a good ways and put refrig at junction of nook and kitchen. Move range to left and put a prep sink on end of trucated peninsula. This way the refrig serves kitchen, fam. room, and eating area. Big sink becomes wash-up sink and other sink serves for water access for the three spaces.
____
Unless the house really needs more space, you will simply end up with undefined spaces. We had an 8-foot wide corridor kitchen and added a good-sized addition beyond it so most of the old space ended up being hall. You are starting with a much larger space than we did and if you add on you stand to have a awful lot of residual screwy space unless you really think hard. You do need an architect/designer to help you understand your options.

Is the "nook" an addition or part of original house?
Could the kitchen move into the nook? (thinking about roof lines.) Could the kitchen modestly bump out alongside the nook somehow, perhaps cantelever out a few feet on the window side to increase space for a proper dining table? This is assuming that the door on the end of kitchen is not major access to rest of house and that the fam. room does access the rest of house.

Thanks for the ideas.

Yes, IC, I was thinking the fridge would work better being closer to where the eating happens because we might get too much exercise if we walked 5 extra feet. (The adorable oven is so cute--I think it'd be perfect as a second oven, which it IS at the moment. I could retire my toaster oven!) You're right about spouse choices, though. Two out of three isn't fair. Although I picked almost everything in the last remodel and then picked out this house, so it might even out somewhat.

Florantha, a prep sink? ME? :) Hehehehe. This is interesting. I will sketch this out too. (I think I'm going to have to learn Sketchup or something since Ikea "upgraded" their free planner.)

The windows face the front of the house; the nook is original. There's not much we can do to the front of the house--it's still normal looking unlike the inside. Access to the kitchen is pretty good right now so I think we could lose the foyer door (doors off the foyer lead to kitchen, front yard, coat closet, hall to bedrooms, and the other side of that chimney) . The door by the oven into the foyer, the passage by the stove, and the unpictured door in the nook, which leads to a room with pantry storage, half bath, and doors to garage and backyard.

The house on the other side of the kitchen/chimney is a wall-less void of dining room/living room/family room. Or maybe just two of those. But it will take a formal dining table so we don't really need a big one in the kitchen (the nook will dine 4 very comfortably, maybe 6 if the fridge doors don't smack ya).

An addition would be off the back of the house and we were planning on making it a den/family room, but locationwise it would be nice for a kitchen--view of backyard for spouse, connected to the garage hall and dining room, less grimy?

Now if I could work the current kitchen into a laundry room and a playroom/"study"...indoor laundry facilities would be so modern! The spouse is having trouble picturing anything but kitchen in this space, but the spouse does the laundry and might be willing to imagine that.

Anyway, we are very early in the process and it's very helpful to have your thoughts to point us in one direction or another. All I know for sure is that it's gotta go. (Except maybe for the wee oven.) Thanks so much for taking the time!

Fori,
If the walkpaths are already a bit strange and if the nook is at front of house, that means that you can go forward without getting a variance. Take some time with that architect to really talk through what you need vs. what the existing house _seems_ to want you to do.

A set of lists for the architect will help: 1) how we live today and what parts of our usage of the house are okay or good 2) what the house impedes us from doing today 3) how we foresee living in future as kids grow and how that dictates our need for change 4) what we would love to be able to do in this house now and 20 yrs from now 5) what endearing parts of this house need to be retained.

If you're in a bracket that can spend, have fun. If you're in a world like mine that has to be more frugal, I counsel you to spend on infrastructure. Be less focused on countertop materials and colors and more on what your dollar can buy you in real practical terms: walkpaths, closets, plumbing runs, reconciling the facade of house, etc. You may find that you don't need to expand to the back at all. If you have your heart set on materials examine your motives.

We did and we ended up with the kitchen this house should have had from the get-go.

P.S. I hope this doesn't sound like a sermon. If I recall other posts by you, you've done some good thinking already and you're neither naive nor foolish. :-)

Thanks Flo. We're just at a very introductory stage with the architect, a first meeting and a "how does this work anyway" session. But we should go over things like this before we meet.

Materials! I'm definitely not there. Except I do want linoleum again. :) We can't be too extravagant or we'll make this low-key ranch house look ridiculous. Also, our natural cheapness will keep us in check, but we are willing to spend what's required.

We haven't moved in yet so we don't know about flow very well. It's similar to our current home except that it's missing a public(?) room. (It has other advantages, though, including a good place to add the missing room.)
How...fun?

hi fori...

what did the architect say?

Could you draw up the entire space so we can see measurements, traffic flow, etc. The pictures posted above give us a good idea of what it "looks like" currently, but I, for one, can see the big picture better with a "birds eye view" of the entire space. Without that overall view, I think it's tough to give you really useful advice!

Sorry...I know, it's a lot of work!

Hehe. The architect said it wouldn't cost any more to put the kitchen in the addition. :)

I know, Buehl, I know. I've got it on graph paper. I need some software I think. And I am REALLY thinking I want to put the kitchen elsewhere and make this something else. Just need to convince the spouse that a laundry room connected to a small playroom (to become a den! or office! or something when kids withdraw into puberty) would be perfect.

I guess I'll get to work.

Easy answer, put a counterdepth fridge where the oven is now, replace the stove with a really nice (maybe 36") range with oven(s) and do the hood, high cabinet thing you taked about, above.

I think getting rid of that peninsula would help....a lot! Maybe a nice deep counter, behind the range, with stools? Close to the fireplace and easy to converse with the cook?

Of course, an addition would be all new, design it the way you want and start from scratch. Your choice :)

I think you're right, LL, if we keep the space. There's just not a lot one can DO with it. I would do this, and not even consider anything else (the size is correct), except for that little sticky spot: we are slobs. We have become spoiled by the induction cooktop where you can leave gunk on for days. We could certainly handle cooking on gas again (fire is fun) but could we ever learn to clean it?

So, the windows face the street and I'd rather not go forward. The door to the foyer could be bricked in, or kept closed if we turn the room into something unsightly like a laundry or play room.

Right now I'm thinking this is okay, I can work with this as kitchen. Plumbing can move, walls pretty much have already been removed. :/

The original layout is almost okay except for the fridge and all the excess spillover into the next room--a little fatness of counter for seating would I guess be alright. Spouse likes bar stool seating. I think it's silly, wedged between a dining table and a breakfast table within spitting distance of (most likely) a sofa but I'll play along! If nothing else, it'd be a nice way to lay out a buffet.

We need a refrigerator, dishwasher, cooktop, wall oven (might be willing to go with a range), 36" sink, and I think that's it. Oh, a real HOOD. We have storage for brooms and pantry items/small infrequently used appliances through the door on the left. And we want to keep a small table in there.

There will be lots of traffic. We're used to this in our current galley. I mean vehicles as well as pedestrians. Pretty much a madhouse.

So, where's the fridge go?

Would it work to flip the kitchen & breakfast area?

And I am REALLY thinking I want to put the kitchen elsewhere and make this something else.

well, maybe that's the kitchen we should be planning for, then. :)

I tried flipping it, Marti. After all my claims of being immune to traffic, I think there would be traffic issues. :)

Ironcook, that would be just too easy, doncha think? I've been playing with it and think this really isn't bad. We can smoosh the fridge next to the oven (can I put an oven cabinet where the fridge currently is? Too weird?). Remove all extraneous peninsulae. Keep the wraparound cabs in the breakfast nook (cuz they're cute!). Instead of seating across from the cooktop, a raised chunk of cabinetry facing out to display junk (or hide it), that HIDES the mess and makes the kitchen not so freaky open.

Or swap sink and cooktop.

Fridge is still not as convenient. Maybe an integrated one to the left of the small window? It would make the wraparound cabinets less cute (they'd no longer wrap, just cover part of the back of the fridge). Cuts into sink space.

or?

hi again, fori...

see, you DO have TWO cute things going for your kitchen: the adorable oven AND the wraparound counter.

i actually think you have a nice space to work with. :)

what did you think of florantha's suggestion to scoot the sink/window down and put the fridge between the nook and the sink? with that or the integrated fridge like you mentioned, yes, you'll have to give up the wraparound counter. it's cute, but is it more useful than the fridge being there?

i think the adorable oven is more useful. there are nice 24" models still available. i wanted that little bertazzoni, sniff, remember? if you are keeping your induction cooktop, were you planning to add a standard oven underneath?

--> oven where fridge is may be too inconvenient... it doesn't seem like you have enough room for a landing spot, either. i suppose you could use the counter next to the range; i wouldn't like to do that in a walkway. oops, did mean an oven under the counter?

--> chunky cabs to hide the mess... if you are going to add an island hood seems like you're almost walling yourself in. too dark? maybe i'm not picturing this right, but it makes me think you should have a bell and shout, "order's up!"

maybe you only meant pony wall height, though. ;)

ugh, i feel like i've been stating the obvious. maybe i should be quiet and just watch. okay, so tomorrow you're going to tell me you are doing the kitchen in the addition after all. ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: Bertazzoni 24

Shoot. That's a cute little oven. Berta's always got good looking stuff. I'd get a 24" oven if I got a range instead of a cooktop/wall oven, but I'd like to have a real size oven somewhere of course. (For potato storage.)

To shield the cooktop from nosy onlookers, it'd be more like a 12" wide bank of cabinets behind the cooktop counter, about maybe 6" higher than the regular counter. Pony wall I guess. With storage. And I'm thinking instead of an island hood, a real hood (probably overly wide and overpowered to make up for missing back and sides) built into short upper cabinets. Remember the cabinets over peninsulas from the 60s? I guess I want something halfway between short order cook and speakeasy door. And I'm totally okay with a post or column or something to frame the hole. Uhhh passthrough. Whatever it is.

Sort of like this, but probably without the gap at top (I like that, although it's not practical, but I have a feeling the header is important.). So no island hood, just a regular one, low profile, stuffed up in cabinets, ignoring the fact that it's on a peninsula. I would have the counter a little wider than normal I think so that the cooktop wouldn't be so close to the back. And not a tall range backguard like here:

That's a terrible picture. But the hood is flush with the cabinet bases and (presumably) unseen from the other side.

You're right about the oven of course--can't put it in that corner. We were thinking it wouldn't matter because we don't use it that often, but if that's the case, why not just have it under the counter?

I'm considering the window move but it was well thought-out with regards to the exterior of the house. And I'd have to redo the landscaping. Don't make me pull out those 60 year old camellias!

potato storage

not sweaters? (in a viking no less, from another thread)

well fori, it sounds like you have it pretty well sorted out. if you can go with an integrated fridge, that sounds easier than messing with the camellias. can you part with the cute wraparound counter?

interestingly, today dianalo mentioned something about high storage to match the back height of her vintage stove. i just skimmed it, but it sounds like she has cubbies for small electrics. it's in the "happy accidents" thread. i guess you can see the cook from the shoulders up, so i shouldn't knock it without trying it. :)

maybe buehl will come back with some insights. keep us posted.

Hehehehe great links--thanks! Looks like the fridge will have to back up to the chimney in the corner though or it'll be cooking/fridge butt collisions. And that might eliminate the spot for an oven stack. Which puts me back to a gas range. Did someone say I could just build a new room and start form scratch? Ack.

This really should be fine. We don't live in the kitchen so we don't need one of those glorious culinary temples. And if we start from scratch, it'll take us years to get anything done and frankly, we're too old and the kitchen is too bad for that.

I'm going to toy with putting the fridge in the hole. They look good from the back, right? :)

or it'll be cooking/fridge butt collision

this is why i should keep my mouth shut.

you know what you are doing. :)

I. uh. I don't know that we really would collide...perhaps I'm imagining things I oughtn't.

So I could maybe do on the stove wall, starting at location of original oven, a 30" oven stack, about 48" of counter which gets you about 3" into the gap, 36" cooktop, 18" counter, 36" fridge, approximately 36" doorway (the largest in the house, incidentally). The fridge would be boxed in and cabineted to the ceiling, the uppers surrounding the cooktop if not all the way across would be the shorties up high, extra deep to enclose the header on both sides, a counter ~ 12" deep and 6ish " higher than the cooktop along the hole. Upper cabinets on both sides of the header here to conceal it entirely and uh.

Ack. what's wrong with bumping butts? And what has happened to my graph paper!??

Ok, I'm confused. Your kitchen currently is at the FRONT of the house, facing the street (from the sink) and the living room is at the BACK - with the large picture window with tree view?

And you are going to add onto the BACK, so a new room will be behind that big picture window?

Do yourself a favor - if you REALLY WILL be adding on anytime soon, do not waste any money in the current kitchen! Just leave it as-is (as bad as it is), put on the addition, which if it ends up anything like mine will be the biggest mess in the world, and THEN, after the new addition is DONE (basic framing and electric), decide if you want to move the kitchen.

The way I imagine it you WILL want the kitchen facing the BACKYARD! And YES - I would then, AFTER the new kitchen is FINISHED, turn the current kitchen into a hallway / laundry room with a play area / den in the breakfast nook area. That is similar to what we are currently in the middle of doing.

The benefit of doing it this way is three-fold:
1) You have an actual working kitchen WHILE the back is under construction, and ALSO while a new kitchen is being built back there.
2) You get to really feel how the ENTIRE layout will work - you can treat the current kitchen as a hallway, imagining the sink wall is now where your laundry will be, and how when you enter the house from either the front door or garage this new hallway will influence traffic patterns (like, you won't have to walk THROUGH the living room to get to the back)
3) You can carry the costs of the remodel over a longer period of time - pay for the addition now, and wait a year or so to do a nice kitchen. Because you will have the existing functional kitchen you will not feel "rushed" to get everything done at once.

As for the fridge, what I would temporarily do (if planning a demo anyway), is put it right next to that mini peninsula on the sink wall. Yeah, it will partially cover that window and deaden off some cabs, but for now it's a lot better than having to go all the way across the room / table to get to it.
What is under that peninula that jets into the living room anyway? It doesn't look like cabinets - maybe you can rip out the drywall and put in a beverage fridge for now.

That is by far the weirdest layout I have ever seen! Totally 1970's Bachelor Pad, wet bar vibe!

Confused, Nat? I've BEEN there and I'm confused! It's weird.

The addition would go off to the side, not where the window is in the picture. The large senseless peninsula is where there was once a wall diving living and dining rooms--there's a "room" to the left out of the shot. An addition would be to the left of THAT, tying into it so it could serve as a dining room, and also to the odd hall-between-current-kitchen-and-garage.

I sort of like the idea of not deciding until the addition is in, but on the other hand, if I just remodeled what I have (entirely), it would certainly be done faster. And the size is fine. I just can't figure out a layout that works well enough to base a remodel on.

I won't do any temporary halfremodels though. It's too far gone. Nothing beyond cleaning and shelf papering. (Today I used steel wool to degunk the stove--it felt extreme but it was necessary.)

hi fori,

yesterday we put the fridge in the dining room because we are taking out the kitchen floor.

now i totally understand why you don't want the fridge at the other end! it's so nice having it there!

our kitchen is really small, so i've always thought the few extra steps were not a big deal. but HEY, we really like it.

too bad our cabs are already ordered. :(

well, natschultz's post made a lot of sense.

Wow! Now I'm super-duper confused! You want to add on to the side of the house? The side you have no pictures of? Well, that picture window in the living room does face the backyard, right? Because, since you have kids, I really think that you will end up wanting your kitchen to have a view (and probably access with a mudroom) of the backyard so you can watch them while cooking and stuff. Plus, if you want to have barbecues and the like, it seems really annoying that you'd have to trek everything across the house to get to the backyard. If you add onto the side I'd put a door to the back off the kitchen (maybe French doors with a mudroom next to them), and put in a header in the dining room wall (current exterior wall I assume - not in the pics) to create a circular flow - you can enter the kitchen from that existing door in the breakfast room nook, from the dining room, and from the backyard.

IC, it won't be all that bad at all. A few steps is okay. But dagnabbit if it CAN be optimal it SHOULD be!

Nat, it makes more sense than it sounds. I will attempt a sketch.

Well, I'm back, and I think this kitchen has to go sooner rather than later.

I have attempted a whole house layout sketch, or rather a modification on a sketch made by the appraiser who didn't feel it was his job to draw in rooms. Measurements in the drawing are pretty approximate and the walls are straighter than they appear. My scanner and computer are in a fight and I don't have any software so here is a crudecrude sketch.

Now to explain why the kitchen to the side isn't as bad as it sounds, it's a pie shaped lot so an addition in the area of the yellow blob would give a nice view of a large part of the yard. Now in the picture, the green blob is the chimney, the lavender squiggles are the kitchen cabinets, the blue thing is a potting shed and green house. Approximately.

So that is kind of the general orientation of the place (the garage opens towards the entry, so actually there is a car parked outside my nook window right now because someone went crazy with the concrete and someone else put a bunch of junk in my garage).

I am okay with putting the kitchen where I find it, but it's gotta work. If I put it in the addition which we have yet to make any decision on, I'll have to WAIT and I'm too old to wait. I cooked something with onions and the house smelled for a day. Maybe I can get used to an open kitchen but it's gotta have mega ventilation.

Any suggestions? Thanks!