Told them that if they gave me 8 windows (I ordered 19, they replced 2 that have no curtains and made me feel that they were doing me a big favor in giving me 2) and helped to pay for the installation (I will contribute as well), I would be happy and would drop my complaints and bad reviews. Marvin offered them incentives to do this - but J.F. Johnson Lumber refused.

Adrian,

I don't think anyone is saying that there weren't mistakes made on multiple fronts, we are just trying to find you a path to getting a resolution and showing you where your efforts might be wasted.

If you are loosing light, you were loosing light before with any insert application. That is a function of the install type (insert) and frame design. If you can truly say that the roughly 1/4", the thickness of an iPad air, off of the top and bottom is noticeable, then I am not sure you were going to be happy with any insert application either way.

As I stated earlier, if you can show the units were mis-measured, perhaps the supplier will give you some sort of credit or pay for the labor to re-trim those units.

The 5/8" results in an inch of glass (this was proven with the 2 windows that were changed out and measured correctly.) And it made a big difference in light. They are offering no credit or any compensation. I am getting pictures of the measurements using the top of the sill to the bottom of the head jam to show that all of the windows were mismeasured. Like I said, they do not care and are not doing anything.

There is some loss of glass in this application. What you have maintained is that the were 5/8" short (i.e. roughly 1/4" on the top and bottom). Maybe the old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar holds true. They may have seen this thread by now and I don't know of anyone that likes having their name tossed around as being the defendant in a lawsuit.

Like I said, they are losing way more in business than what it would cost for 8 windows and part of the installation costs. Maryland Attorney Generals office suggest that I work with the media that handles consumer issues. The wrong measurements can easily be demonstrated. Afterall, I have the measurement of the test window, the revised measurement of the same window (an inch difference) the Marvin Instructions on how to measure all Marvin replacement windows, a tape measure and the windows.

If they give me the 8 windows and pay for part of the installation, I will tell the world that they did right by me.

No lawsuit, no bad reviews, no complaints. I would be a very happy camper.

I am even willing to pay more for the reinstallation. I think I am being reasonable.

And seeing as your contractor gave you his/her price, what would that total amount that you would request be (minus the installation help)?

I had asked for the 8 windows and $2,800 toward installation (each window costs about $430 to install and trim, so the cost would be $3,440.) I would be willing to take $2,000. I am also looking at replacing 2 more windows and just eating the costs on those. Fair?

So a $780 credit per window for the 5/8" of glass size reduction?

Marvin quoted me, the homeowner, a price of slightly over $4,000 for the 8 windows, not $6,240. My guess is Marvin would give one of its dealers even a better price, plus the money J.F.Johnson Lumber could get for reselling the incorrectly measured windows. Add in lost business from complaints, bad reviews and legal fees, this is a bargain.

It's impossible to determine what is or is not fair without a very detailed examination of all details of the situation.

Ill ask again, what was the nature of the paid agreement for the measuring service?

On another note, I haven't seen a single response that expressed shock at the poor treatment that you received from either the number company or manufacturer so I don't know that they are losing much business. That said, one needs to be careful to avoid putting yourself at risk for legal action by making potentially libelous statements. Once again, just throwing that out there for consideration fwiw.

You are also coming dangerously close to conceding that you are trying to extort money and/or product here via your tactics. Why would you accept only half of the Windows if you really believe that you have been wronged here? ... It may be advisable to seek legal counsel before posting much more .

Again, truth is the absolute defense in libel. I was told that being off by 5/8" was very good, that my contractor "told" them to take an inch off the measurements, that the only way to get an accurate measurement was to take all my windows out, measure, and board up the windows until the new ones arrive. Not the way I would expect to be treated, and definitely not my contractor. Everyone I have talked to, contractors and potential customers, feel this is not a way to treat your customers.

The agreement was, once again, that we hired and paid them to measure and order our windows.

Businesses that get bad reviews lose business. Consumers have become very savvy in shopping and shy away from businesses with bad reviews. Why do you think having high ratings on Angies list, bbb, yelp, etc. are so important to businesses? Also, consumers have 1st amendment rights in freedom of speech to express their displeasure, as long as it is truthful. I was mislead that J.F. Johnson Lumber was an expert in measuring Marvin windows. Being off by 5/8" on every window, according to every contractor I have talked to, is bad.

Anyway,

I am going to drop off the thread. Feel like we are going round and round. At this point, a judge needs to make the final determination on what is fair.

I am only asking for half of my windows because I AM BEING VERY GENEROUS. I can live with windows measured wrong that don't have lace curtains. I just want to be a happy customer. Extort money???? Having correctly measured windows on half my windows, and my picking up a good chunk of the installation costs, buying, out of my own pocket, 2 more windows with lace curtains is not extortion, so you should be careful. There are so many sites that TELL YOU, INCLUDING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF MARYLAND, to file complaints, go to consumer news organizations and, if not satisfied with the results, sue.

And let me be clear - I want 8 correctly measured WINDOWS, I am not looking to take cash from them and keep it. They can have their old windows and sell them when the new ones are installed.

And the sites and laws are drafted by...you guess it...attorneys. I am sure the AG and state of MD want to err on the side of protecting consumers as there are more than a handful of bad contractors out there that regularly abuse folks in the contracting world. I am not sure that 5/8" rises to that level when you look at the full body of work. At the end of the day, you are asking for nearly $800 for 5/8" of glass for the casual reader.

I don't mean to upset you Adrian, once again just providing advice. I'm sure that the AG does not recommend running someone's name through the mud because you think that you have a valid complaint.

Regarding your request for new windows, either the lumber yard screwed up or they didn't. If they did, and you believe that they should be held legally responsible, then that would consist of replacement of all of your windows. In legal terms, asking for anything less is acknowledging fault.

At this point, the only hope I think that you have here is if you have a written contract where you paid for the professional measuring service, that has some verbiage about where the lumberyard is guaranteeing the accuracy of the measurements.

...I'm also a little confused about where lace curtains enter the equation...

I apologize again if I upset you. Like you said though, if you do intend to pursue legal action here that is where this will be decided. I think that all of us that have weighed in are eager to hear where that may go.

The lace curtains are because I lose light. Look at Angies list, yelp, bbb and see how many companies have bad reviews and those sites have a much bigger audience than this one, I would suspect. If I need to ask for all of the windows, then I will. I am just trying to be reasonable.

So, you think measuring every window wrong by 5/8" is very good?

And, "dragging them through the mud", we have something called free speech in this country. As long as what I am saying is true, which it is, I am free to tell anyone I want about my bad experience. In fact, there are ANTISLAPP laws, set up specifically, to keep companies from intimidating consumers for using their freedom of speech.

"I am just trying to be reasonable."

Alrigthy then......................

Alrighty then back at ya!!!÷

Millwork man so you think window measurements off by 5/8" is very good?? My guess is you do!

I did not say that at all. Something somewhere is still missing in the story. Just my gut feeling and you have shown us nothing to prove otherwise in my opinion.

Houzz get a surprisingly good amount of traffic and as much as any of those sites (more than Angie's List actually) with the exception of Yelp. Not surprising in that case as folks are using Yelp to navigate to a great many things. I bet if you compared time spent on a given site, Houzz would probably crush them.

Excellent!

Excellent except for the fact that this thread makes you look like a homeowner that bit off more than you could chew by buying and signing for a batch of windows, and now you are trying to throw others under the bus in the process. I don't think that anyone reading this would think negatively about Marvin at all.

Point taken. Hope others weigh in.

I take back my previous assessment. Adrian doesn't want to sue anyone because he/she knows that they will loose. What is clear from the post is that Adrian wants to extort the lumber yard in this case. What is hilarious is that lumber yards mostly deal with contractors if they conduct themselves like they do in my state, so you extortioner efforts are largely useless. You are trying to get thousands of dollars out of what is probably a family owned business because you and your contractor (who also sounds like they need some help if he is the one installing them and taking someone's measurements) signed off on an incorrect order. Between that and your more recent commentary, you are demonstrating your exact motives quite clearly.

Goodness gracious the internet gives everyone a voice no matter how cantankerous it actually is.

I hope the lumber yard turns around and sues you for defamation if they have a case.

Libel - to publish in print, writing or broadcast
through radio, television or film, an untruth
about another. Truth is the ultimate defense against libel.

Should J.F. Johnson Lumber want to file a
libel suit against me, the intent would be to stop me from spreading my
displeasure. Unfortunately for them, I
have a first amendment right to freedom of speech. The courts do not like when people’s
constitutional rights are being stiffled, which is why there are Anti SLAPP
Laws. A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP)
is a lawsuit
that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the
cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or
opposition. Such lawsuits have been made illegal in many jurisdictions on the
grounds that they impede freedom
of speech. Maryland of one of those jurisdictions.

When one files a complaint on places like Angie’s list or the Better Business
Bureau, they ask what it would be an acceptable resolution to the
complaint. That is what I have
expressed. Extortion is the crime of obtaining money or property by threat to a victim's
property or loved ones, intimidation, or false claim of a right.

Someone
brought up an interesting point. Why would
a bad review hurt a lumberyard if the main clients are contractors? Well, with the way my contractor was treated,
I can, with most certainty, assure J.F. Johnson Lumber that my contractors
would not be one of their customers. So, when contractors see that my
contractor was blamed by J.F. Johnson Lumber by “telling” them to take an inch
off of a window measurement, and having no documentation to that fact, it would
go into their decision making process of whether or not to do business with
them. This is like a consumer reading a
bad review and taking that into consideration on using that company or product,
etc.

Would
I like this to be over? Very much
so. Am I happy with what I have,
no. Am I happy with the way I was treated,
not at all. Was I happy that a finger was pointed at my contractor – REALLY,
REALLY ANGRY ABOUT THAT!! If J.F. Johnson Lumber can show me documentation that
my contractors “told” them to take an inch off of the length of the window, I
would love to see it. However, to date I
have seen no such documentation. So, since I am an unhappy customer, I have
filed complaints and written bad reviews.

This
is my last correspondence on this thread.

Thanks for posting those definitions. Unfortunately, based on your description of events, it sounds as though all of the documentation in this case (including your signature authorizing the order) states that your smearing of the lumber yard and manufacturer in this thread is baseless and false, therefore you could be at risk for legal action against you, and extortion is not inaccurate either in my opinion. That is a pretty open and shut case. They have signatures and legal documents supporting their case. You have none. You have hearsay and and a convoluted scheme to try and tie responsibility to the manufacturer for a mistake that was unfortunate, but that you clearly have some blame for, and they have none. Shameful. Again, open and shut. This wouldn't even make an episode of Judge Judy. Good luck

If you signed off on the order, I am not sure how it is anyone's fault but the persons who signed the order in this case. If there is a question as to the instructions or what is considered protocol, that should be addressed prior to submission of a validated and authorized order.

I would love to see Judy Judy adjudicate this one. She is awesome.

Apparently she wrote a book about this thread.

I initially felt bad for Adrian. Now I think that Winston1man's assessment is on point. Adrian isn't the hapless homeowner he first seemed to be, and does not appear to be on the up-and-up. BTW, he never has answered the repeated question about how and why his contractor was fine with someone else measuring what he would have to install. There's that pesky gap of information again.

Notice that Adrian has never posted a photo. How do we know any of this story is true? Could it be a competitor of the lumberyard writing this? Or someone with a personal grudge against whoever owns this lumberyard? Or just someone who enjoys debating on forums who made the entire thing up? The story doesn't hang together, as has been pointed out several times.

Then there's the odd statements like attorney costs are not a problem, references to lace, numbers that keep changing.

Adrian has said that it's "my last correspondence on this thread" a number of times. But it never is. Do you notice how Adrian often posted 3-4 times in sequence instead of stating his response in one post? Or brief responses like "excellent". This is all about getting this thread as long as possible. That way, it will move to the top of google searches.

We are enablers in this. Everything that needed to be said in this thread has been said and said. A lot. And, whenever it quiets down, Adrian pops up to repeat--again--the same thing. I request everyone stop responding, and "feeding the beast".

While I agree mostly friedajune, I'd say who cares if the thread does have legs? Nobody that reads all the way through this will give much credence to the complaint imo.

Post the name of the dealer so everyone knows to avoid them!!! Terrible service.

"Post the name of the dealer so everyone knows to avoid them!!! Terrible service."

I am puzzled Germain, you state "Terrible Service" and to post the name of the dealer. Obviously you must have read the posts to come up with the "Terrible Service" yet you missed the name of the lumber company mentioned at least a half dozen times. And truthfully I feel he/she is being very unfair to the dealer as he/she is yet to prove (from my point of view) that they were if fact done wrong by the dealer.

I can't speak for other folks, but a careful reading of the thread makes a couple of things clear and the dealer being "terrible" isn't one of them. There are a couple of stories going on in this thread by the way. I am referring to the most recent.

I would love to have name of city as I.had similar Probs. Brksshr@aol.com

They have 2 locations, Millersville and Edgewater, MD.

I know this thread is old now, but I could not help to make my own comment here. I am totally with Adrian, as I have been in similar situations. Logically, all the people interacting with him here are all dealers/installers, who will always try to justify the wrong doing by a dealer like them. There is honor among thieves. He explained probably 30 times the circumstances, and they still say that he is hiding something, that the full story was not told, even to the point to say he is trying to extort the dealer, etc. I would be furious about that comment. He put up with negativism against him for too long.

Hope you got a final good deal. And yes, I am so glad that the online reviews exist nowadays, because that definitely stops many unscrupulous people from wronging customers. And yes, Marvin should step in to help in some way, after all they are the ones who referred customers to their dealers. 100% with Adrian.

Thanks flantella. As far as I know, J. F. Johnson Lumber is still in business, although my guess is they don't have many repeat customers. As for Marvin, they offered to RESELL me windows.

Sooo, Fiantella joined Houzz and posted for the first time to revive this 2-year-old post to tell Adrian Fish he is 100% with him. Fiantella ignores all that the prior posts have said, to say he has been in "similar situations". I guess cause it's a holiday weekend there's some idle time...

Thanks for liking my comments. Hope you are making a more informed decision because of them.

I’m sure it was an accident Adrian, there are very few likes of your posts and virtually none once your agenda became clear. How’s that lawsuit going? I’m guessing not well or you wouldn’t be making this pathetic attempt to bump this thread

"This is my last correspondence on this thread."

Guess not......................

I know this is an old post, and likely resolved. I would like to input my .02. #1, most of the comments here (surprisingly the professionals as well) missed the part about the "FULL FRAME" install. There is a monster difference between a full frame install versus a pocket/insert installation. A big difference in price, labor and light loss. #2 If the customer knew it was a pocket install, there would have been no need to stop her kitchen remodel. The backsplash is NEVER effected by a pocket install. #3 If the contractor was planning to do a pocket install the customer would have been advised of #3 (backsplash will likely get effected by a "FULL FRAME" install. Clearly the contractor reneged on his "Full Frame" install and took a short cut. Many contractors take short cuts and try and take advantage of homeowners. The contractor was 100% wrong in this situation (assuming they agreed to a full frame install). And all contractors here who defended the contractor, should ho back and read the complaint. You only have one side of the story, and very well could be a different side. This professional opinion is based on the complaint being accurate. I wish I could have helped shed some light for you 4 years ago. Can you share an update?

BTW, You likely would have GAINED light with a full frame install. Yes, gained.