I am very worried about a 6'7" table space which will also need a traffic path to the kitchen and stairs?

The kitchen layouts are essentially the same, but the peninsula adds quite a bit of counter space...Do you mind seeing the sink from the dining room? If so, you could have 2 ft of wall on that side and have the peninsula come into the doorway opening, or squeeze a narrow, raised section of cabinets onto the dining room side of the peninsula.

I have seen a lot of older houses with their kitchens opened up, and I don't think it really hurts them, but I personally kind of like the more traditional feel of the first version. It reminds me of klb_2000s kitchen, which I love. Different materials than you're planning, of course, but a very dignified small kitchen in an older house.

Here is a link that might be useful: klb_2000's kitchen

Divamum, I love my dressing room! Hope you will too. Do you have anywhere in there for a vanity (i.e., dressing table)?

While you're right about the open plan kitchen not going with "cottage" architecture, you have to live there! This isn't a tacky update you're planning, but a well thought out improvement to your living space. If you don't plan to keep the kitchen door closed at all times you have the same view of the kitchen through the dining area anyway, and opening up gives you a lot of counterspace, which you need if you can get it. I also like that rounded shelf near the door. I could be guaranteed to bump into that sharp corner on plan 1 often :) It looks good too :) If you want to draw more of a line between the two rooms you can hang some pendant lights over the counter.

On the other hand, just last night on House Hunters there was a guy who wanted a kitchen door to keep cooking smells out of his house. Does your over range vent to the outside? I'm new here and can't keep people's plans straight: Is your furniture period or very traditional? Do you keep a cluttered kitchen (cannisters, magnets, pictures, & other on counter and wall paraphernalia), which you don't want to show in the dining room? Do you like to stack the dishes/pans for later washing and do one big clean-up after dinner or after your guests have gone home? If so, a more traditional floor plan, with a wall and door, might work better for your style, and it might be more important to separate the spaces.

I love big open spaces but I also like a kitchen door, so I love your new plan, but worry that you might miss the door :)

JC

Thanks both!

The dining area sounds like it should be too small, but my neighbour has the same dining space and with a small table it works. Granted, her stair and kitchen arrangement are a little different (she has a solid wall there) but the dining area is the same. I wouldn't have believed it on paper either!

I'm wondering now if I can't combine "the best of both world's" and leave the pantry at the bottom of the stairs but also add the full wall across... hmm... I have to get confirmation from GC that the pantry can be built there too, of course, but I'm pretty sure it can.

Rosie, valinsv et al - you guys out there? Would love to know what you think of this one having held my hands so wonderfully this far! :)

I like your "L" shape the best, and that you opened up the wall from the kitchen to the DR.
Does the back door in the kitchen have to stay? If not you might be able to move it to the middle of the wall and have a galley style with more counter space on the interior wall, which also allows light from one end to the other with french doors: ) But if not, I still like the "L" shape for it's openess!

Yep, back door has to stay. I realise that a double galley would, kitchenwise, be optimum (and we went round and round and ROUND this in the other thread), but the impact moving that door would have on the brand new deck, the very old siding (asbestos shingle thus a pita!) and a mature fruiting mulberry make it impossible.

Interesting that so many are coming down in favour of the L, which I didn't expect. Keep 'em coming guys - bring it on!

:)

Hi, Diva. How exciting to be about to start on this. I know whatever you choose you're going to end up loving it and have a lot to be proud of yourself for.

As for your two current designs, I'm of course torn. Like Rhome, tho, I naturally tend to be drawn to the more traditional feel of a separate kitchen. Paradoxically, creating separate little spaces that can't be seen from each other can often create a feeling of greater space, and of course there's always a certain element of mystery and even romance that comes with that. Tho, whether that's the case here... For instance, a collection of small spaces might well benefit from one good open area? (BTW, love your dressing room! There's some mystery and romance, presuming you don't entertain guests there, or maybe especially if you do, like certain ladies in historic romances.)

Back to the kitchen, though. Also to wonder about is whether, even though the second plan allocates more room to the dining aera, the transition between the two main spaces created by that pantry-stair passage might give greater importance and elegance to both spaces. Transitions can develop a real synergy that make them worth a whole lot more than the space they take up. ??

You do have more counterspace on the second plan, which is nice, but it would be at the cost of losing the corner work space--so not a whole lot more gained--and having a smaller, more closed-in floor area. Have you tried play-cooking to try to see which feels more right and comfy to you?

Regarding that piece of counter by the fridge in the first one, I suspect it would be of little real use in working and its main virtue over the second version is allowing the space to feel more open and a larger view into the back garden (rather than a larger view of the fridge). Keeping the fridge pulled back like it is there seems a good idea, but I'd at least consider instead of the shelf a shallow floor-to-ceiling cupboard alongside the fridge. 6-9" holds a whole LOT of stuff. You know--trying to use vertical space where you can to free up horizontal.

These are just a few thoughts tossed out from the ignorance of distance, but it's fun to muse and I'm looking forward to seeing what you decide on and why.

Hi Divamum! Congratulations on the impending kitchen start -- this is so exciting. (that picture of your sleeping daughter was darling!)

This is v. subjective, but I prefer your second proposal. While I like its increased counterspace what I really like is that whoever is in the kitchen gets to be part of the action. And even if there's no action going on, at least they have the visual "space" of the dining room, so it feels more expansive.

So that's how I like to live: having the kitchen look out onto other spaces. Others like to have the kitchen separate, so definitely take what I wrote with a Brooke-centric grain of salt.

Whichever you choose it will be such a nice kitchen. I'm really looking forward to watching its progress. Congratulations!

Thank you all - as ever! Your analyses really help me continue to refine my own thinking!

Some interesting things emerged yesterday:

1. My DH prefers #2, to my surprise

2. My contractor is amenable to either, but won't commit to whether or not we can do a full beam or need some supporting wall to remain until he opens it up further and has a look (the wall supports both the original 1928 house and the - poorly built - ca 1960s extension, and given the shoddy building we uncovered when rebuilding the deck, I understand his reluctance to make a decision!). Plus, I think he's realising that he's actually undercharged us quite a bit for the actual work involved and probably hedging his bets slightly ;)

3. I couldn't figure out why when I stand in the REAL space, the open plan I imagine "feels" really good, but when I look at the drawing something seems "wrong". It finally occurred to me a few minutes ago: the drawing doesn't have the feeling of the CLOSED wall behind where the viewpoint is "standing" - that "closed" wall with the narrower doorway to the LR etc. It makes a difference in that the DR and K feel more of "one unit" already, thus opening them out doesn't feel quite as significantly "modern" as it does in the drawing (that probably makes no sense to anybody but me - especially since I'm only on the first cup of coffee! - but fwiw :)

Lastly, for those who have questioned that narrow dining room: Here is a picture of my neighbour's DR (her house is for sale and this picture was in the listing). Granted, her stairs turn the other way instead of run straight (which is why you can't see them - they turn to the other side, but the stairwell is actually in exactly the same place), and she opened up the ENTIRE back of the house instead of just the one side as we are doing (she built a full 2nd story so could do that with downstairs), but you can still clearly see that the small dining area works fine, and that fact has been guiding my thinking from the get-go.

(PS Yes, her original back wall is beamed and fully open as we hope may be possible, but the beaming was done in the course of adding the extension during her remodel; mine will be beaming between the original house and pre-existing, not-terribly-well-built rear addition.)

ps to clarify: neighbour's kitchen is open to the left to a family room, thus the island. Also, no back door to contend with (her rear access is on left hand side).

It's sometimes hard to believe these started as the same house design and footprint! There are about 20 of this "model" scattered around a little pocket of the neighbourhood, and it's fascinating to see how each generation and each individual remodeler has chosen to modify the spaces and deal with the challenges.

There's no denying I find older homes fascinating - they can may not come with the "conveniences" of modern buildings, but they are just so darned INTERESTING. :)

Actually, your explanation of what the wall "behind" you means to the feeling of the combined space makes a lot of sense. It really sounds like you guys now have a good idea of where you want and need to go.

By the way, regarding your DR decision--you've lived with that space, seen your neighbor live with it, are comfortable with the way it works, and have made that all clear from the beginning, so it's always sounded good to me. Plus, we had most of our family meals for years in a sunny little breakfast area scarely larger, soo...

Good luck on what's found in that wall.

Thanks Rosie. Your posts always make me smile (as well as think hard!), and I don't think I've taken the time to thank you personally for your input and encouragement - it's made it much easier to think things through and explore various alternatives with more confidence :)

My guess is that structural concerns will probably make the final decision for us. Bottom line is that we like BOTH those plans for different reasons, so there will be no disappointment or rancour either way. Bottom line is that it's going to be soooo much nicer than the way it was that we're feeling pretty good about it all. Here's hoping we can keep that attitude once they start work next week and we're in the thick of things!

Hi Divamum. After seeing your neighbor's photo and thinking of the two rooms as one, I think I like the second version better too. I have a question that may have been answered in a previous discussion, but I didn't see it. Does the pantry have to be walls and a door? Couldn't it be tall cabinets with pullout drawers and face the peninsula? I think that would help with the open feeling. Just a thought.

Hi auchmedden - as I mentioned in my initial post, the cabinets are 2ndhand thus... we don't have a tall pantry cabinet to use!(I wanted one and considered adding one by buying it new, but given that a KM pullout pantry costs nearly as much as the ENTIRE SET of cabinets we found, well.... it wasn't too difficult a decision to make given our (non)budget ;)

The built-in pantry idea was originally conceived when I created a drawing that retained a piece of the original wall "just in case" we had to frame through it rather than beam it and open it up all the way (this was way back in the early stages of playing "what if?" on the computer). Once I drew it on that window wall, I liked it. Then we realised we would have the rather nice oak 5-panel door that originally closed off the attic (part of the original house) and thought it would be nice to use it SOMEWHERE so.... Somewhere along the way I decided I liked it even if i DIDN'T have to beam the wall, which is how I've arrived where we are now. I like that it adds original detailing to new space and hope that it will help "tie together" the house so it feels like it was all always there (like I said, I like old houses :)

I also think my thinking on this project has run slightly differently to many, largely due to budget constraints: instead of thinking "what do I want... how can I get it?" my process has been closer to, "What have I got... how can I make it into something I want?" !!! :)

Well, here we go! Was a shortened week last week due to the holiday (plus they were finishing up another job elsewhere) so it was today that we finally nailed down exactly what we're doing.

It can indeed be fully beamed, and my GC and his partner were both ALL OVER the more open U-shaped design for better function, space and useability. So... I guess that's what we're getting!

I'm a little trepidatious at messy ole' us having a kitchen area open to the world at large, but maybe it will encourage us to be a bit tidier! Also, DH really prefers the added light (very important for him, as he has a vision-anomaly which results in ZERO depth perception) and I think the connection of kitchen to the rest of the house - including the galleried new office upstairs - will be a nice way of keeping everybody from getting TOO separated into their own worlds.

I've remeasured the countertop and there is just enough - it will require some creative seaming, but there's enough. Still not sure if we'll be able to do a raised counter off the edge of that one bank of cabinets, but we'll see once we've got it in situ how that works; we can always build a half-wall there if necessary. I'm so grateful my GC LIKES working "on the fly" like this - the flexibilitiy to work out the best design based on what we've actually got and the reality of the space is much easier this way.

In the meantime, they're opening up and preparing to beam the old wall. Was fascinating to see it. The "passthrough" was, in fact, a portion of the original rear window (the old framing was there). My interest is continually piqued by each discovery!

Anyway, now the fun begins.... watch this space!

Congratulations on getting started!

My vote would have been for the open plan too. Just because it makes the space feel more open and it gives the option of closing it off later if for some reason you don't like it. It is easy to add a wall after you are done with something. Much harder to remove.

My first vote was for #2, which sounds like it is the way you are going. We just took out the dividing wall between our kitchen and DR, and I can't tell you what a difference it has made- so much so, that it still feels like I am 'visiting' some one else's kitchen.

I'm also thinking that your little dining nook looks like it may be a good candidate for a built-in banquette? If you built it in at counter height- then it could tie in to the peninsula and you could have a little extra 'reading' area/window bench- with tons of built in storage underneath.
Just a thought...

Have fun, and aren't you lucky to have found such an accomodating GC?

Well, we're coming along nicely. I'll get some pix posted as soon as it's a little further on; with the old kitchen still in situ it's kind of hard to get pictures that capture the full impact of what they're doing, so I'll wait until I can take some pictures that have the "wow" factor :)

The wall between kitchen and diner is now COMPLETELY gone and, despite my trepidation, it's going to be absolutely wonderful to have it as an open space. The whole house feels twice the size, it improves the vista from the front and it's going to be a wonderful family space - we're thrilled!

We've hit the first couple of "oh phooey" compromises that our 2nd-hand cabinets situation generates: because of the previous handles placement, one of the cabinets next to the stove will have to open the "wrong" way. I think I can tweak the other side (one of the new cabinets) by turning it into a pullout (which I was considering doing anyway) and I can live with it, but it is a minor annoyance. However, we knew there would be little things along the way that we would have to deal with and, regardless, it's still SO much nicer than what we had that I can't really complain (well, I could, I suppose, but I'm not going to... or not much, anyway!! :)

My faucet still hasn't turned up, so I'm anticipating a bit of a battle on that - it's the first time I've EVER had a problem on Ebay and I'm not quite sure how to proceed, but I'll figure it out in due course. In the meantime, I think I have another faucet picked and (shhhhh - don't tell anybody!) I think I actually prefer it for the revised and now open layout... ;)

Biggest challenge now is backsplash and paint - I STILL can't seem to settle on anything! More tile-shopping tomorrow and Wednesday - have to at least get stuff ordrered so it's ready to install when they get to it!

Anyway, just an update. We're getting there!

You wrote about just having enough countertop (using creative seaming). I'm positive you've already thought of this, but just in case you haven't: if it turns out you don't have enough countertop or the seaming ends up being "too" interesting, what about putting some butcherblock in just one spot? You are such a miracle shopper, divamum, that I know you would find some at a terrific price.

Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

Ha - thanks for the vote of confidence! I think I just got very lucky with this stuff - I'll be honest, since my initial Craigslist haunting, I haven't seen anything as good as we managed to get so I really do think it was pure serendipity!

And yes, you're absolutely right - I have Ikea butcherblock in mind as a backup plan if necessary :)

I realise I meant to mention the other "phooey" item that's turned up in my previous post and edited it out in error: the new cabinets which looked like a perfect match on the ground in the natural afternoon light the other day show a more noticeable difference on the wall in artificial light. Go figure! However, I'm hoping they'll "weather in" and will soon match their older cousins. And, of course, they're next to the microwave so that will break up the colour variation too. Still, it's odd how in some lights it's perfect and in others... not quite so good.

But, as I mentioned above, we knew there would be compromises going this route and these are ones we can live with.

Now to find tile that doesn't break the bank and still looks special - I find this part WAY harder than the layout stuff!! :)