I have tears in my eyes from Marcolo's last comment- I am going to add that to my repertoire.
Sometimes, I wonder if the people who have marble enjoy it more because they have had to fight for it.
I heard a similar refrain in every stone yard I visited. I finally settled on giving the salesperson a smug pitying smile and asking if they had a more experienced salesperson with whom I could speak. One time, I mentioned that my KD was the one who recommended marble and asked if I should consider a new KD (who happened to be one of their largest clients).

To be fair, I often deal with people who are inspired by pretty pictures and haven't got a clue about the realities behind those pretty pictures. Most people are like that in fact. Not everyone is as well informed as you, and most of these people who are irritating you are just trying to help you.

Even here, where the properties of marble vs. granite are pretty well known, you'll have the occasional post from someone who just put a gorgeous marble in their home and has etched it and who didn't know that would happen. As long as you tell them up front that you are already well informed about the positives and negatives of your choices, they'll stop trying to help you. And you don't even have to be witty to just be polite and tell them that.

I do appreciate Marcolo's wit, and Bee's need for a way to truncate the conversation because she knows about marble, but the naysayers about marble aren't actually wrong! Yes, your life can be made easier with sealer, but marble does stain and etch. Yes, you may love patina and want a living finish, but the suppliers have had so many people say they were fine with it then come back with, "Yeah, you told me about XYZ, but no one told me about Q!!! I can't live with Q!!! It should be proof against Q and you didn't give proper disclosure because you didn't mention Q!!! It's YOUR fault and you're going to pay for replacing and refabricating the stone, but if I have to have granite instead it has to be bookmatched with a compound ogee edge and you're paying for it even though it's worth three times as much because that's what it takes to match the beauteousness of my poor marble because you didn't tell me about Q!!!!!! It's your FAULT. I'm going to sue. My brother-in-law is a lawyer and a shark and he's going to take you to the cleaners because you didn't tell me I couldn't remove a red wine stain with distilled vinegar."

Have a little patience with people who need to protect themselves. It's a tough economy and they're just trying to stay afloat and keep these issues from biting them in the keister.

By sheer coincidence I am reading some research right this second about how badly professionals in a certain industry treat women. Lots of assumptions based on stereotypes.

The bottom line advice to salespeople from this extensively-researched consulting report: Ask first, you dumb &(*^."

Marcolo, do you ever get people treating you badly in kitchen related stores because you're not a woman?

I think bad treatment in stores has become a universal phenomenon. Only the style of badness varies.

As a rather petite woman I'm accustomed to people either figuring I'm too young to have any power or . . .the secretary ("oh, can I speak to someone in charge").

I have to say I agree with Marcolo's method of listening to what they say and then getting back on target with what you want. Don't engage; if you need a business relationship with them don't antagonize.

My personal pet peeve is when someone refuses to deal with me and asks to speak to my husband. This actually sends me into a blinding rage, and I meet it with outright hostility.

" I know they stain, but we don't cook, you know. "

Marcolo, should my reaction vary depending on their shoes? Shoes do tell a lot about a person you know.

And plllog with three Ls, who knew?--I understand what you and LWO are saying. But I find it interesting that the stone place that I stopped in to visit today (where my current counters are from) were all hyped up on the marble as long as you understand the etching. They are now using a dupont Proadvanced sealer that she said has been incredible. She also said you need to use common sense and clean up spills but it's not an emergency to get to the red wine as it is pouring out of the glass, etc.

And what is it with the red wine? Is it obvious I drink a lot of it? Are my clothes stained? Or is it the nature of the beast....remodeling (new build) = massive quantitities of red wine. Basic math I guess.

So, I will have to try that shoe thing out. Of course I'm sure I will burst out laughing, which will cause my dh to start laughing and we won't be able to get out of the store fast enough.

" I know they stain, but we don't cook, you know. "

followed by the sales guy saying

"But by all the red spots on your clothes you do drink RED WINE, obviously"

Ignorance regarding stone is not limited to marble. Most "granite
isn't granite, either!

My first reaction was similar to live_wire_oak's comment. I love witty comments as much as the next person (so keep them coming!), but the salespeople deal with a lot of uninformed people. They probably didn't see your GW KF diploma with all the summa cum laude's in backsplash design. I wouldn't want to be condescending to someone who is trying to help me, so I'd probably say something like, "Yes, I've researched marble thoroughly and I'm interested in it despite the potential downfalls," while thinking the witty comeback!

Sigh. But, really, how could a certain industry be any worse in this respect than most others? I once went to a certain shop serving a very narrow market to purchase an expensive piece for my own independent-contractor business and, in spite of my very detailed specifications--repeated--was patronizingly shown only systems that were completely unsuitable to my needs but were considered appropriate by contracting companies that never had to use them. Less expensive than what I wanted, but, hey, this guy was willing to pay for a win and lose a sale altogether if he got to finish up with a smirk.

I do love the Information Age, though. Those in my field in this guy's marketing area, and around the English-speaking world, no doubt, learned of my experience with him--and with an 100% helpful mail-order competitor. Even more satisfying than the excellent devastating pause-and-slice, particularly since I made a point of thanking him for "helping" us all learn of the competitor. :)

Beekeeperswife, short on wit here, but be sure to invite this person is to dinner. Your counters will make their own statement.

"Still stuck back in the 90's as far as design goes."

If you mean the 1890s, I think marble was a big thing then.

""But by all the red spots on your clothes you do drink RED WINE, obviously"

"Oh, no! These are from the last salesman who tried to give me crap. Protein stains are so hard to remove, don't you think?"

mpagmom--what? There's a diploma? I never got one.

Here's my real personality if you all must know:

salesman: "You shouldn't have marble"

me: "Oh you are right. I'll just take whatever you want me to have"

Im just not a fighter. Actually, I get what I set out to get, but I'll look for someone who wants to sell it to me happily.

Just like my F&P dish drawers. The shop that said, "you don't want these, you want a kitchenaid" lost my business and I went to a place that embraced them.

I thought Marcolo was a woman.

My comeback would be, "Oh, thank you for your concern, but I know all about marble. The 100 year old marble in my bathroom has been through a lot. I nearly cried the day my daughter's colored bathtub crayons left a blue spot on the counter, but you know, now I really love it!"

Actually, the blue stain faded in a year or so and now you can hardly tell it ever happened.

bee, perhaps you're in need of these.

{{!gwi}}

You need to take a geologist with you when shopping for stone.
I took my DH who a geologist and when the salesperson started spouting off, my DH would stop them and give them a geology 101 lesson. That shut them up.

No diploma????

Must have gotten lost in the mail. Here's a new one:

OMG, that's awesome, mpgagmom!

You'll have to wait for the graduation cap. It takes a few days for the epoxy to dry when we attach the square Calacatta tile to the Hudson Lighting Pelham Pendant.

Too Funny.

I'll print this and bring it with me. This will certainly impress them.

Thank you for this honor. I knew all my hard work hanging around on the computer would pay off someday...

Round here in the Washington, DC area I am shocked at how often I have to explain that no, it's soapstone I want, not silestone.

When asked to speak with my husband, I reply, "I'm now single. I had him removed."

Years ago, all sweaty after working out, my aunt and I went to Garfinkles, a now-defunct, wonderful department store. She wanted to shop for fur. The condescending saleswoman explained that we shouldnot touch (not try on, touch) the fur because it could stain easily. Huh? And walked away.

A little mouse of a lady came over to help us and even insisted we try what we were admiring on. My aunt bought her full length mink and I, at 24, bought a gorgeous, below the hip mink jacket.

Guess who muscled the little mouse out of the way to write up the sale. Needless to say we would have NONE of that.

The world will never be shy of those who assume ignorance or just plain assume.
Why don't they just ask?

Christine

I told the stone people I didn't like most shiny granite I saw, didn't see what I did like in my kitchen, knew how marble was different, had walked on marble steps in the Library of Congress, seen statues that had been out in the elements centuries longer and knew they'd been using it in kitchens in Europe for centuries. I planned to cook and bake in my kitchen, but nothing in my kitchen was going to be worse than all that. I wanted a kitchen that looked like a work zone with the soft charm of an old bakery or ice cream parlor/soda fountain.

I did have some tell me that marble wasn't for kitchens, and I had others caution -- but they also told me about very large and expensive homes they had taken gorgeous marble out of because the owners who loved it couldn't live with it. Generally, they just wanted to avoid someone getting something they would be unhappy with -- not talk me out of it if I knew what I was getting into.

I went through this a year ago. Everywhere I went they told me this, whilst displaying magazines with photos of kitchens with guess what? Marble counters. I would let them talk, then smile and politely say "I'm getting marble. I know about etching etc and it suits our lifestyle fine. But thank you for telling me about the concerns". I also found that asking about Callacatta or other stones immediately tipped them off that we had done some research.

But I want MARBLE...and since I'm going to be the one paying for this kitchen, maybe you should concentrate on making me a happy customer. If not, I'll go to the next store on my list, since I'm sure they'll be happy to help me :)

We got the same condescending tone about marble, even after explaining we understood the pitfalls and were aware of etching and staining issues. The place we almost bought our marble from was the only one that did not press the point after hearing our familiarity with the issues. We ended up not going with it, but not because of the warnings but because we realized that stylistically it did not fit with the particular look of what we wanted. It would have been too elegant/rich for the modest style, no matter how much we loved it. Now, our bathroom in our master is different and we got the marble for our more grown up/elegant space and will probably get a different kind of marble when we re-do the family bathroom.

Years ago, I went into a car dealer one day on the way back to my office from an appt. I had on respectable clothes and was by myself (almost 30 at the time). I mentioned wanting a 4 door sedan and wanting leather seats, a moon roof and several other options. The guy started to walk me one way and I saw a nice model nearby. I asked about it and he said "you don't want that one, it is out of your range". Mind you, I had not discussed budget or price in any way, but mentioned the features I was looking for only.
I was so offended that I just said to him that since he assumed what I was willing to spend, I was going to assume he was not able to help me. Then I left. I got back to my office and wrote a letter to the owner of the car dealership. I never got a reply, but felt better for having done so. It turns out, my budget would have covered the car I asked about and then some. I was buying it as a 30th birthday gift for myself and needed something respectable for work, esp. with putting customers in my car regularly back then (nowadays, buyers meet us at the house or follow in their own cars) and wanting something decent at the curb on a listing appointment. If the guy had half a brain, he'd have realized that a real estate agent would like something nice and could afford it. In our field, we learn over and over again that you can't judge a person's budget by what they wear, drive, do for a living, age, etc... Some people are way better off that you'd guess and others are way worse than you'd expect based on salary and age. It pays to be delicate and not assume anything! I could lose a lot by sticking my foot in my mouth.... like that car salesperson who did on a smaller scale.

I can't wait to do a "marcolo" sometime soon. I have never wanted to be insulted before, lol.....

It's not been a great day today and let me tell you, Marcolo, you just turned it around. Love your sense of humor. And your common sense to boot.

Amy

I have oft told of my marble-interruptus in my last kitchen, and how happy I am to have marble in this kitchen.

However, just a word about patina. I love patina. I'd patina my kids if they stood still long enough. I am a color phobe but a patina groupie.

That said. The first etch or stain on your marble is not patina. It is a stain. Same with your second, third, fourth. Your marble will have a lovely lovely patina someday, yes. About the time you are moving into Elderly Acres and your new DIL is harping on your DS to rip out that tacky old marble junk. In the meantime, your marble may go through unflattering stages.

Just something to keep in mind that ive not heard mentioned. I used marble only in one area, an island top, and it isnt my primary food prep area (my work table is).

Beekeeper maybe it's what you are wearing, maybe it's your shoes lol. It is funny how when you are a woman and shopping for building/remodeling supplies that what you are wearing makes a difference on how you are treated. If I am dressed very casual I guess I don't look important enough to help at all so I have to get a bit aggressive. When I'm dressed nicely I'm often talked to in a condescending manner at first unless I'm carrying my clip board of notes. Oddly, if I'm looking at building products of any kind while dressed in my paint cloths with paint splatters I guess I look like I might know what I am doing and I get lots of attention and good prices. I am going to wear my paint cloths from now on. I swear to you that all the bathroom tile I looked at dressed up went down to 2/3 the price when I later came into the warehouse in paint clothes. Same with HD, I took my son in (me in my paint clothes) to buy the toilets, tub, sink and faucet and I had about four people helping me find the "right" tub and loading everything on the dolly. Usually they all do a run Forest run to the other side when I go to the building supply section just dressed normally because they are too lazy to help lift.
I have in the past looked people in the eye and asked them if they were Simple, but only when provoked.

the problem with witty comebacks are, they are wasted on the stupid.

My personal pet peeve is when someone refuses to deal with me and asks to speak to my husband. This actually sends me into a blinding rage, and I meet it with outright hostility. - ThePaintedLady

Ah yes. Last weekend I took my husband to an appliance store so he could look at the ranges and refrigerators in contention. His input/interest is strictly aesthetic, which is how he wants it. When the salesguy came over, I was the one providing information and asking questions, and what I said showed I'd done some research - I was talking open versus sealed burners, 27" deep hood for better capture area for the range's grill, built in versus integrated refrigerators. My husband said NOTHING. And the salesguy address all information to, answer questions to, and makes sole eye contact with.....my husband.

Though not as bad as the appliance guy who told a friend's husband, while the friend was standing right there, "Your little lady's going to love this." Little Lady pretty much ripped his face off.

Yeah, you never know what people's relationships are and I learned a long time ago about assuming when I asked a pretty young girl was her father helping her with her decisions. Turned out to be her husband. I learned from that mistake! I usually ask now if there is another family member or close friend who will be having input on the decisions. And then I clarify to be sure if I am dealing with the primary decision maker. There's nothing worse than dealing with a couple who both think they are the primary decision makers and whose taste is nothing alike!

Treating women differently in a store is a violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If you girls get passed over in favor of your husbands, you have no one to blame but yourselves. Stamp your Manolo Blahniks and demand satisfaction. Organize a pearly posse, document how all your friends are treated differently on your cell phone cameras and put the damn store out of business.

My late mom was a tiny thing, knee-high to a hobbit. I saw sales guys in stores try to dismiss her. First time I ever saw grown men cry. Nobody, but nobody, effed with her.

Stand up like a woman, girl.

In 2006 when we wanted to install solar panels, here in the DC area there were 3 companies. One never returned my call, the 2nd sent someone to give me an energy evaluation, even though I explained we'd had a fire and that was a joke. I even told her things I'd planned that she didn't even know about.

The 3rd came out. They were a 3 man show.
The guy who came out spent more time making stupid wife jokes to my husband and me than he did talking about potential installation. My DH and he had a long bonding time discussing our 6 rural acres and how 1) high they used to get 2) high they could get while enjoying the privacy, and 3) high they used to get. With those stupid guy laughs like they're leering about something.

I'd finally had enough of this crap and with checkbook clearly in hand, said, "Let's get past this BS and talk about solar installation. I (I) want to cover this roof & install solar water, too. Have you got time for that or do you want to continue making jokes the wife finds particularly ignorant?

We ended up with them because we pretty much had no choice in 2006. The guy only slipped a few times in the ensuing months, but immediately stepped all over himself to apologize and nullify the damage.

Now they're one of the largest solar companies on the east coast and he's still with the company. We were the 1st on the east coast to get the beautiful, flat panel BP panels and our water system reduced our electric bill by 2/3rds. I don't regret our decision, but I sure wonder if he learned anything. My DH didn't. I was just a b!tch.

My point is that it's another good idea to find out who is writing the check. My DH didn't happen to give a flying banana what we did because he'd already started fooling around. So even his approval was unnecessary. While the solar guy was buddy-buddying with him, I was the decision maker and the money guy. We spent $55,000.00. I also understand now, that we were their first "real" client. You'd think.... ah well. Trying to apply logic to a stoner, I guess.

I think it still p!sses me off in a disgusted way.

Christine

I want to know if Marcolo will be appearing for stand-up anytime soon!! Very funny . . .

In reference to women being overlooked - On our last house, doing a roof and roofer sent me to a particular shop. I stood in line at the couter like everyone else. Finally I am up, about to ask about shingles and the counter man looks over my head and says to man behind me "next"! I left and refused to work with them. A year later getting a kit quote, sent to same store. Against my better judgement went but took husband with me. Gave KD my design, first comment is "you cant put uppers up with a corner and no glass fronts". Me "I don't want them, back & forth and finally KD says to DH, will you explain to your DW glass fronts are necessary. DH, "it's her kit if she doesn't want them we will not be getting them. Off we go and they lost our business. 5 years later a complete old house redo and they did not get our business!!!

Well, I have made sure the KD at our new build knows who is in charge. After our meeting to go over the first round of designs, I realized he had taken it upon himself to put custom cabinets in the bathrooms. While that is a nice thought, we are trying to cut costs. The vanities would certainly be a place that stock cabinets will be a good choice. He told me to take the info to my dh and then get back to him. I just looked at him in the eye (not the shoes first) and said, my dh doesn't give crap what cabinets are in the bathrooms, I need the price to be lower so do whatever it takes to make them cost less. Then he wrote it down.

Mine isn't witty but it worked. When I was flirting with the idea of marble it didn't take long to realize that they were all going to say "we don't recommend that for kitchens." After that, to save time, I'd say (nicely but in a no-nonsense voice), I'd like to see your marble slabs, and I don't want to hear you say it's not supposed to be used in kitchens! No problems after that. The reason I didn't get marble is because the kind I wanted was way above what we were paying for exotic granite (and we'd already gone from normal granite to exotic). I knew DH wouldn't go for yet another increase on a project way over budget. So, I love my granite! But still dream of marble.

You Go BEE!! Nothing witty needed at all once they know who's writing the checks.

If someone seemed to be bypassing me on kitchen decisions, dh would say something like "this is her show" and point them my way, and I'd follow up with "yes, I married him for his looks", which served to make dh happy and the salesperson blush.
In truth, he just did not care about most decisions in the way I did. On those he did, we had done most of our research prior to hitting the store and had our discussions about it prior. He would prefer that I deal with the salespeople and shop out price anyway and bring him in only when needed. He did get a good amount of input when you figure out how much effort he put into the planning and how much I did, lol.

I wish I had a witty comeback like Marcolo. I am saving
that beauty in my back pocket.

What I do instead, is try to imagine the fool that is giving
me his (yes usually male) uninvited opinion or ignorant
view point looks like this....

And this keeps my sense of humor in tact as I gracefully
smile and try to ignore his pathetic opinion.

~boxerpups

Who gives back an incredulous look like this....

[LOL!]

I'd seen cat photos with their human teeth, but never the dogs. Knowing my silly, old girl, that's hilarious.

You know, I appreciate sincere advice. And when one is sincere, one usually listens. So if the sales person is, it's moot. A quick response, witty or not, and one moves on.

I had a gutter salesman come once. I think he was afraid of me, because he couldn't come within 10 feet, even to shake my hand. I asked him how the system worked and he set a laptop down on the tailgate, walked away, pointed back to it and said, "There's a video you can watch." So, confused, I did.

I finished and said, "I didn't need the sales video, I called you. I want to know how they function?"
He said, "I think I'd better have someone else come out and help you. We evidently can't work with each other." Huh?

He left, I thought about it, and I called the small business owner and explained why I wouldn't be buying his product. I complimented the guy on his timeliness, appearance, equipment, etc., but explained that I wasn't naked or anything, so I was confused. There was no reason to dismiss me like that.

Anyway, now I can also picture them as Larry, Darryl & Darryl of the Boxer world.

Christine

Marcolo- It sounds like your mother was a forced to be reckoned with! My grandmother wasn't quite as petite, but I learned from her...you only get ignored, if you let them get away with it. NO one condescended to her, either :)

Me, I'm pretty easy going. I'll explain that I know what I'm doing, ask questions if I don't...and if you have problems taking directions from a woman...I'll find someone else to work with. Then, no more problem.

LOL, Marcolo, boxer and all you witty people!

Bee, stand firm, and ignore the naysayers. After all, you have a GW KF diploma and they don't. But I do agree that the best way to handle it is to give them the benefit of the doubt and to rise above it - while saying the witty comeback to yourself in your head and including it when you relay the tale to others.

I found the stone yard we'll deal with and knew it immediately, not just because they had a terrific selection but because of what one of them said to me. As we stood in front of the best selection of soapstone I've yet to find in our area, hubby asked, "but isn't soapstone soft?" I replied, "It depends on the talc content." The stone salesperson said approvingly, "Someone's done their homework!" Yep, we'll be purchasing out stone from them.

I have several tales of being treated shabbily merely because my bumps are in different places than a man's. I'll share one of them.

Years ago, when we were selling hubby's car, I had to deal with a neanderthal yahoo. The male caller asked, "I'd like to speak to your husband." Hubby was out of town but I was damn sure not going to tell the caller that. I told him, "I can answer your questions about the car." Mind you, I used to do a lot of my own car maintenance from changing the oil to tuning it (including changing points and setting the timing), so I was pretty sure I could handle his questions. But he kept insisting that he needed to speak to hubby, that he had technical questions that I couldn't possibly know. Well, I finally convinced him that I would be able to answer his questions and that he would have to talk to me or no one.

His first question?

"What color is it?"

That's what he considered a technical question?!?! I was dumbfounded. When I finally found my voice, I informed him that the price for him just went up.

Idiot.

Sold the car two days later to someone else.

Personally, I encounter this type of attitude less often than I used to and I don't think it's just because I'm older. Attitudes are changing and large percentages of the younger generation have been raised by single moms. When you're raised by a strong woman, you tend to respect woman and leave the condescending BS behind. I offer Marcolo up as an example.

These stories are so interesting! I didn't realize that kind of thing was still prevalent. Servers in restaurants often defer to me because when I was quite young I read that one should look them in the eye, and that has become a habit. I do the same with sales clerks, and usually get very good service. I'm amazed at the kind of attitudes some of you are being hit with!

I've done a lot of shopping for my house with my brother along, and gone with him for his. The clerks often enough have assumed we were a couple because we'd be discussing pros and cons and whatnot. Just as often as they'd address him first, they'd address me first, and as soon as one of us said whose show it was, there wasn't any issue. I couldn't tell you if there were gender stereotypes involved in who was addressed first, or if it was who was standing a little forward, who looked more interested, who looked sleepy... We seem to be treated quite equally, however, in the aggregate. That might be a Southern California thing--or a Western thing in general. Or it might be the looking them in the eyes. Or just the attitude. I tend to go into a store with the attitude that they're there to help me, and they do. Mind you, I'm pleasant and polite, and treat people with human dignity (I've seen those who do not!), but I do have the expectation that I will be served. 'Course, rambunctious puppies sit for me too, even when their own people can't get them to. :)

Ya tell em :

"you can pick what ever YOU like , when YOU write the checks! "

Too funny!