Cutting a notch into rafters to push LVLs into the ceiling?

9 years ago

We have a load-bearing wall we'd like to remove. We were told by a (seemingly highly experienced) contractor that the LVLs for that span need to be 16" wide. (He called the lumber yard from our house to confirm.) That width is unacceptable to us, because are ceilings are already relatively low (7.5 ft). When I asked whether a steel beam was an option, he said it would be extremely heavy and nearly impossible to maneuver into place. The only realistic option to covering that span with a less-visible beam would be to cut a 7.5 inch notch or "pocket" into the rafters, and then slide the LVLs up into the notch, so that only 8.5 inches of them is visible. That would look fine, to us. But ...

The only problem for us is that his estimate came significantly higher than the other quotes. He said because of the complexity of this "notching out" solution ... definitely true to an extent, but probably also higher because he just plain charges more. Two other contractors we spoke to before him never even mentioned this solution; they only said there could be LVL or steel options, depending on what the lumber yard could spec out; and they never hinted the steel option would be unworkable. How do I make sense of this?

The expensive guy seems to really know his stuff (or possibly just good at acting like he does?). I'm afraid that if I went with one of the other two cheaper estimates, that they those contractors would eventually come to the same conclusion, but then might not be comfortable/competent at the job of pushing the LVLs partially into the ceiling.

Am I justified in my concern about going with one of the less expensive estimates? Given a structural engineer's plan, could just any contractor competently execute on this notching out solution? Or is this a job that really requires paying a premium for someone who really knows what they're doing?

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weedyacres

9 years ago

Is the "notching the rafters" something like this? Why not just put the beam all the way flush in the attic instead of hanging down?

This was a LB wall that we removed. We had a lumberyard size the LVL, and installed it ourselves. We hadn't done it before. But I carefully read a Taunton article with the details, and it was pretty simple. Painstaking grunt work, but simple:

support rafters with temporary walls on either side
2. tear out LB wall
3. cut rafters back
4. put beam in place
5. use joist hangers to attach rafters to beam
6. repair all the drywall

I did see a show on HGTV once where a contractor did this and charged $5000. That made me feel pretty good. :-)

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Comments (12)

millworkman
9 years ago
I don't think the proper way to get span information is thru a phone call to a lumberyard personally. He and they may be 100% correct but I do not think I would trust my house remaining upright on a that type of information. A bearing wall removal really needs to be seen by an engineer for feasibility before you even get as far as you have. Just my .02 cents.
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Precision Carpentry
9 years ago
millworkman makes a good point but any lumber yard that I have ever dealt with that would spec something like this has a structural engineer on staff.One that I deal with does have and the other one I deal with does not and would never spec anything like this.
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Original Author
9 years ago
Good point, thanks. But my main question is, presuming a formal structural engineering review determines that notching out the rafters is the only option for us, is that a job I can trust with a just average contractor or is it sufficiently complicated to only entrust to someone who has done this before.
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Precision Carpentry
9 years ago
It's not real complicated as long as they follow the engineers advice.The cut sections of the joist will have to be tied into the lvl or supported somehow. I would want someone that has done it before.
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Sombreuil
9 years ago
Seems to me like steel should still be on the table. It will certainly be fewer man-hours given the notching scheme is tons of unnecessary labor. If that GC doesn't want to bring in the manpower to do setup and deal with the steel safely, then _boo hoo_, find someone that will.
When we have dealt with steel beams overhead, we use about one man per 100lbs of steel. The fabricator can give you the weight to the ounce if they have to.
Casey
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Joseph Corlett, LLC
9 years ago
progressnerd:

You want to see written approval from your local division of inspection before anything is done. If he doesn't want inspection involved, there's your answer. An engineer/architect can stamp a scribbled napkin. As long as inspection accepts it, you're good to go.
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Joseph Corlett, LLC
9 years ago
weedyacres:

That looks good, only I'd add #7, Make sure the load path (the framing that holds up each end of the beam) is fully supported to the foundation.
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Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks for the helpful comments!

Joseph Corlett: We are getting full inspection of all the work.

weedyacres: why not put the beams all the way flush? Good question. I assumed because that's all we could either safely get away with, or that fully cutting the rafter would be even more work/money.
weedyacres
9 years ago
Yes, Treb (JC: you are the former Treb, no?), one end rested on an exterior wall and the other on a stairwell wall. We were good there.
Vith
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Fully cutting the rafter would be more work/money" Do you want it to look good? You will get a better looking product if you do it right. For example, my basement is not the tallest. I am finishing it. There were junction boxes and hvac lines all over. Do I just put a hanging ceiling that lowers the height for the whole area even more or do I redo the electrical and move the hvac lines so there is just one bulkhead (I had to add lines for the basement anyhow) and I can use drywall on the ceiling and get more headroom. Taking the time to get a quality product is worth it to me.

Also as Joseph said, make sure your point loads on the ends of the beam go all the way down to the foundation. Weedy, that 'stairwell wall' does that have the strength to hold up the attic and roof? Point load means vertical beam going to a footer. You are safe on the exterior wall because the load transfers to a footer, but I dont know about the stairwell wall, where does that go?
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Charles Ross Homes
9 years ago
It's not clear to me whether there is attic space above the ceiling in question or whether there is living space. If it is attic space, you may be able to run the LVL across the top of the ceiling joists and use hangers on the joists (the LVL needs to be supported on each each and there needs to be a load path to foundation.) We did this on a recent remodel and it's much less invasive "surgery" than cutting the joists and installing the LVL flush with the bottom of the joists.