Question #1, is there a 24" cabinet right next to the sink base?

Yes there is and we are going this weekend to get the exact measurements.
we do want a flush finish so that the dishwasher does not stick out

Standard DW's are 24". Just remove that cabinet and pay the electrician and plumber to do their thing. Not a big deal.

Thanks Sophie, i will double check the measurements this weekend to make sure it is a 24 but wouldn't the width have to match too for a perfect fit ?

Thanks for your help

That's what I'm talking about. A 24" wide cabinet, next to the sink.

Sophie means 24" in width. Assume the cabinet is 24" in depth, which is standard.

ya sorry guys, i get it now. I will get the measurements this weekend, hopefully things will align

Hi Sophie/sj

I was able to get the measurements today and unfortunately the 2 cabinet close to the sink are 15 inch wide and have 3 inch between them. this makes things more complicated

how do i install the dishwasher and make it look plush ?

appreciate your advice guys

thanks

S

Hire a professional. Don't buy the DW until he tells you it can be done.

hi I do plan on hiring a pro but whom do I hire since it needs electrician, plumber .. I am probably over thinking this but this will be my first project

Take some pics of the sink run and indicate the size (width) of each of the cabinets on that run. We might be able to figure something out.

Hi Live_wire_oak

Attached is a picture of the cabinets and the sink. Assuming the cabinets under the sink are not going to be used, there are 2 cabinets next to the sink cabinets that could be potentially used.

The size of each cabinet is 15 W X 20H X 22.5 D

and there is 3 inch spacing between the cabinets.

Hopefully the image explains it better

Thanks

Sunny

What's on the other side of the sink?

There is another cabinet to the right of the sink and then there is the cooking range. here is an image that might help

You might want to consider using an 18 inch wide dishwasher. You could then most likey keep the the second cabinet intact. I am linking some options found on A.J. Madison's website because it easily lets you search by width, depth and height. 18 inch dishwashers. My DD had an 18 inch dishwasher in her first place and it had plenty of room for the dishes she and her 2 roommates used in a day or two.

It appears as though those are stick-built cabinets. Are the shelves behind the doors contiguous? If so, you won't be removing a cabinet, you'll be hiring a carpenter to: alter the face frame to allow for a 24" (or 18") wide opening, and add two end pieces to finish off the "cabinets" on either side. Then you'll call the electrician, then you'll have the dw delivered, and then the plumber can install it for you. I believe European dw brands like Bosch are often less deep than American brands and may work for you, depending on your budget. Good luck on your first project!

This is a give a mouse a cookie situation. One ''minor'' change will lead to some pretty major changes, that will cost more than you think. That is far from a ''brand new'' kitchen. The cabinets are 20-30 years old at least.

I'd really suggest that you hand wash dishes for a while until the rest of the limitations of the kitchen become obvious to you. I wouldn't put money into altering those cabinets or paying for an elecrician and plumber to come in----until you've done the gut down to the studs that this kitchen really needs and can address the rest of the electrical and plumbing inadequacies. You'd be wasting about $1500 when you could put that towards a more comprehensive redo.

I added a dishwasher to really old cabinets so I'm familiar with what you are dealing with. Sophie is right about the "if you give a mouse a cookie" scenario but it may still be worth it if a kitchen remodel isn't going to be feasible short term.

A couple issues:

Is there a garbage disposal? If so, is it hard wired or is there an outlet under the sink? If there is a standard 2 outlet box under the sink you don't need an electrician. If it's hard wired or for some weird reason there is only the one outlet you need to get an electrician to swap it out. That's cheap and quick, unless you run into code compliance issues. If there is no GD then the electrician will have to pull wires and may even need to add a new circuit so it could get expensive.

If there is a GD then you only need the plumber to add a hookup to the hot water pipe for the DW supply line. There will be a knockout in the GD for attaching the waste line. If there is no GD then the plumbing changes will be more complicated and more $$.

Like eam said, from the look of those cabinets you probably don't have individual boxes for each cabinet that can be removed separately. You will need to remove the shelves, cut out the bottom of the cabinet, add or move partitions on either side of the new DW cavity if necessary, and trim the face frame to give the correct size opening. If the counters are laminate you should also put a moisture barrier on the underside of the counter in front to protect it from steam. (Ikea sells a stick-on strip for this) If you or a family member has any DIY skills whatsoever you don't want to hire any of this out - it's not worth spending the money on those old cabinets to get it to look perfect. You say you want it flush but with that style of cabinet the DW door is going to stick out a bit no matter what you do.

The external dimensions aren't as important as the internal dimensions of the cabinet. With the space you have you are looking at an 18" DW, but you need to check the specs for each model to make sure it will fit. FWIW when I got my DW several years ago the shortest and shallowest 18" DW was from Bosch and was the only one that would work for my cabinets. If you have standard depth cabinets you should have more options but like eam said the american brands run larger than the euro ones.

Sophie again gives good advice to look at the big picture, but if you're determined, a carpenter can alter those cabinets for around $500.00 or so, depending on if you want the right drawer and door to be functional or fake. It'll cost the same to go 24" as it will 18", so you may as well get the 24".

@eam - thanks for the advice, that is what i intended to do .. its just more complicated than i thought it would

@sophie/Joseph - I agree that there are too many thnigs and people involved in getting this done. However we dont plan on doing the kitchen anytime soon. The photos are that great but the cabinets and the kitchen are between 5-7 years old, the fridge is much newer (<2) and the cooking range is also probably 5 years old. we use the kitchen alot and spend a lot of time there so having a dishwasher was the first project on my list.

though i understand the complexities involved i might have to take that chance, hire the right guys and hope all goes well.

the problem is some electricians, etc i have spoken to seem to busy to come over to look at the kitchen and give me some kind of estimate and what work would be required. I will talk to a carpenter as well but i am sure the response is going to be the same.

@fishcow - thanks for the reply and i dont exactly know how the wiring is but there is a garbage disposal. i will have to check if there is any outlet there though, i have my doubts. unfortunately i am not great with tools so i do plan on getting help.

i think we should be fine even if the DW isnt flush with the unit as long as it looks neat and a part of the unit.

To get a better response from the electrician and plumber it would help if you did some homework. Download the installation manual for the DW you are considering and find out what the specific requirements are. Get under the sink and find out how the GD is wired. Take photos of the junction box and all the plumbing. Then have a look at the breaker box and verify that the GD is on its own circuit. Note how many amps the circuit is as well. Then when you contact tradespeople you can give them a much better idea of what will need done.

@fishcow - i do have the pictures of the junction box and i know i have a 100A circuit. But i dont have them in front for me now, so i dont know if the GD has its own circuit. My closing is end of this month so i will be able to get a much better idea then

Also i have 3 DWs (24") in mind which are almost the same dimensions, but again the list is at home ...i will let you know which ones i am considering so i could get inputs as well.

I'm not convinced those are site-built cabinets. There appears to be a seam between the cabinet under the sink and the one to the right of it. It could be an artifact of the photography, though. If it is a separate cabinet, then it would be 18" (15" for the door and 1-1/2" each side of the door), so it could be pulled out and a dishwasher put in its place. Since you have a garbage disposal, it's not difficult to add electricity for a dishwasher. If there's a duplex outlet under the sink, you're good to go. If it's a single, change it to a double. If it's hardwired, change it to a duplex outlet.

@sophie wheeler - the condo was converted from a single family home in 2007. i agree that 200A would be much better but 100A is adequate. Also i dont plan on rushing in on getting the work done but with the amount of work involved i want to know what i was getting into.

@catbuilder - unfortunately i didnt take a picture of inside the cabinet. but when you say to check if it is a single cabinet, you mean form the inside right so it can be taken off and create a room for a 18"

Also there is a garbage disposal there and i didnt see a seperate breaker for it so its likely that there is an outlet under the sink. i have attached an image of the breaker if it helps.

The first step is to determine if they are indeed stick-built or separate cabinets. You can still have seams in the front with stick-built.

Do you have pictures of the inside of the cabinets? Is that a 36" cabinet with a 3" stile b/w the doors and frame on the sides? Or, are they two 18" cabinets next to each other? The door widths are not the cabinet widths.

They look a lot like my parents' cabinets - and their cabinets are stick-built.

This project is pretty much stillborn or DOA. Take your pick.

depth = 22.5" ???

I dont know of a DW on the market that is that shallow. You'll see the raw sides of the unit at least an inch on an expensive Euro unit, and more on a domestic one. Then you have to add on the thickness of the door itself.

2. The other issue is the 32" of height UNDER the counters ! That's not going to fit any DWs either. They are too tall.

Those cabinets are not new. Not even from this century being 22.5" deep. They have new paint, new knobs, and new hinges, that's all.

@xedos - I stuffed an 18" Bosch DW into really old cabinets that were shorter and the same depth without a problem. But I had to check the installation specs for literally every single compact dishwasher on the market and of all of them only one bosch model and one other more expensive European brand would fit. Unlike the OP we didn't care about it looking nice, just wanted a functional DW, but while the door, including the hidden top controls, was exposed the sides of the unit weren't.

However it sounds like NH has other issues beside old cabinets.

@NH - Having an outlet under the sink has nothing to do with whether or not the GD is on its own circuit. There will be a junction box of some sort under the sink, and the GD will either be hard wired to it or plugged in.

In order to run the DW on the GD circuit, you need the GD to be on it's own 20 amp circuit with NOTHING ELSE! - no outlets and no lights. (Disclaimer - I'm definitely not an electrician and I don't know if this is to code everywhere but it's accepted for retrofits around here) From the looks of that breaker box that is probably not the case unless it's very mislabeled. (Never trust the labels on a box without checking what each circuit does yourself)

With that 100A box you may not have the capacity to add another 20A circuit without upgrading. If so, you should probably take Sophie's advice about offering rodents baked goods to heart.

I suspect the actual cabinet dimensions are incorrect - at least the way we're used to seeing them.

Usually, cabinet measurements are exterior measurements; I think New Homeowner is measuring the interior of the cabinets. (All of this is probably new to New Homeowner, so cut him/her some slack as s/he learns about cabinets, appliances, and electrical circuits!)

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Stated dimensions: 15 W X 20H X 22.5 D

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15 W......If you look at the picture accompanying the dimensions, New Homeowner is measuring the doors, not the cabinets. If they are standard framed, then the cabinet is probably actually either:

• 36" wide (15" + 15" + 3" center stile + 1.5" left face frame + 1.5" right face frame = 36")

--or--

• Two 18" wide cabinets (15" + 1.5" left face frame + 1.5" right face frame = 18")

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20 H......Again, that's the height of the doors, not the cabinet.

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22.5 D......I suspect that's the interior, not counting the back cabinet wall (if there is one) and the front face frame. If they are standard framed, then the cabinet is probably actually 24" deep. 22.5" + 0.75" back wall + 0.75" front frame = 24" [This is assuming it's a standard cabinet. If it turns out it's stick-built and uses the actual wall for the "back" of the cabinet, then it's probably 23.25" deep: 22.5" + 0.75" front frame = 23.25" This is also assuming 0.75" cabinet walls & face frames, not 0.5". That's what my parents' stick-built cabinets are - no back cabinet wall, just the actual wall, and only 23.25" total depth as opposed to 24" deep.]

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Regarding the 32" height shown in the picture......it looks like it's not counting the toekick. Assuming a standard 4.5" toekick, the actual height of the cabinets is 32" + 4.5" = 36.5"...taller than today's standard of 34.5" - so there should be no problems with the DW fitting under the counter once the cabinets are removed.

Except 36.5" to the underside of the counter would be extremely strange for cabinets that vintage. So rare as to be virtually improbable.

You guys are correct in that the only thing that mAtters are the ACTUAL dimensions, not what we think wish.

I stand by my statement that 32" isn't tall enough for a standard DW and 22.5" depth will show a lot of the DW carcass and door. those are the measures at hand until told otherwise by the OP.

@buehl @xedos @Sophie and other - I apologize for not responding but i was busy packing, moving and finally had a chance to get some better measurements and take some more pictures. I hope this time i have taken proper measurements of the cabinets and not of the doors themselves.

I have also attached a couple of pictures of the garbage disposal as well since i was not sure what buehl was refering to

The biggest problem i see is with the height which is 32 from where the countertop starts to the floor. i am really bad at drawing but i hope the attached pictures help.

The cabinets are all screwed in and seems like they should be easy to remove

i really appreciate all your help and advice

thanks

Sorry NH, but like I said before - I think this is DOA.

I don't know of any dishwashers that will fit under a 32" tall countertop underside.

There may well be one, but I am not aware of any. Miele used to have one that would go 33 1/4 " , but I think that has even increased to 33.5 - 33.75". and still leaves you over an inch to deal with on a good day.

What is the depth from the face of the cabinet frame to the face of your drywall or plaster wall ?

If it is at least 24" - then you could use a single dishdrawer unit as they are only 18-19" tall. Otherwise, a countertop unit is your only option.

counter top DW units

At only 32" high, I'm not sure a DW would fit underneath.

What is the overall floor plan? Perhaps you have somewhere you can put a free standing dishwasher.

I just don't see how you are gonna be able to put one there without tearing the cabs apart, removing the counter, adding to the toekick to bring them up to the right height and then building a new cab to go in the extra space left.

You could potential use a single dish drawer from Fisher and Paykel but that may open up more problems because of the 36" wide cabinet and what to do with the bottom of the cabinet. The wide Fisher and paykel is 33" wide. I think you will have to spend a lot of money beyond the cost of a dishwasher r to get a dishwasher installed in this space.

Fisher and Paykel Single Dish Drawer Tall

Good luck!

- If you want a standard size DW, from what xedos says you are SOL because they are too tall.

- If the height is 32 and change, you may be able to fit some 18" models.

This one specs a 32 1/8" cutout, and there may be others, I only checked a few.

http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/SPE5ES55UC.html

However, it's not going to look all that pretty no matter what you do

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You said the cabinets are "screwed in" - I'm not sure what that means -
are you saying they are individual boxes, not stick built? It looks like those two doors open to one cabinet. If that is the case you wont be able to pull whole thing out even if it isn't stick built. It will have to be cut and patched.
- you
still have to figure out what is going on with the electrical. I see
conduit coming from the bottom of the DW, so it's probably hardwired.
That alone should tell you that those cabinets are more than 7 years
old. You can have that changed to an outlet and plug both the DW and GD into it, but ONLY if it's a 20A circuit with nothing else on it. If the GD is on a circuit with other stuff you will need to add a new circuit for the DW, and you need to find out if there is even room in your box to add one.

Like I said, I stuffed a DW into old cabinets but in my case the proper electrical circuit was there and the cabinet modification was minimal, so it just took minor electrical work and getting a plumber for the supply line. If it had required more work and $$$ we probably would have held off on the DW and redone the kitchen sooner.

@new homeowner I'd love to hear what you ended up doing? We are looking into this same project now.. thanks!