Thank you zen_man.

In once case, I took the pollen from 'Tete a Tete' (no relation to me) and put it on 'King Alfred'. [Case One]

In another, I fertilized what looks like an 'Ice Follies' with 'Tete a Tete'. [Case Two]

In every instance, I used 'Tete a Tete' as I really like miniatures, especially miniatures with long noses.

I may or may not have done Tete a Tete x Tete a Tete. [Case Three, if it happened] I confess that I trusted my memory and wasn't THAT a mistake.

So, are the crosses in Cases One and Two F1 hybrids?

And would Case Three be F2?

Or the other way around?

I don't know why I find this F1 business so confusing.

Hi tete_a_tete,

Since all of the daffodils you are working with have complex hybrid ancestry, the concepts of an F1 hybrid or an F2 hybrid don't rigorously apply. An F1 hybrid usually means a cross between two different homozygous plants (pure breeding inbred strains) and you aren't working with anything that is pure breeding. However, you can use the term F1 hybrid to mean a cross between two different varieties and an F2 hybrid to be the selfed offspring of an F1 hybrid, or a cross between different individuals of an F1 population.

" I don't know why I find this F1 business so confusing. "

The reality is actually more complex than the simple concepts of F1 hybrids and F2 hybrids. In general, plant breeders of ornamentals make hybrids between hybrids of hybrids, ad nauseum. So the concepts of F1 and F2 are completely inadequate to describe what is really going on.

Let's take your cross between Tete a Tete and King Alfred, for example. Both of those strains have complex hybrid ancestry, so they are both heterogeneous. When the Tete a Tete produced the pollen grains you used, genetic recombinations occurred in producing each of the pollen grains. The Tete a Tete heterogeneous genes were randomly recombined to produce each pollen grain, so each pollen grain had randomly different genes. If you could produce a plant from each of those pollen grains, the plants would be a motley population of different daffodils, different from the Tete a Tete in various ways.

Similarly the egg cells in the King Alfred would also be produced by random recombinations and would differ from the King Alfred each in a different way. So you were actually crossing a randomly different Tete a Tete with a randomly different King Alfred. If you could grow plants directly from each pollen grain you used, they would be a population of plants that differed from each other and differed from the Tete a Tete pollen parent. Your pollen grains each represent different virtual plants. And the King Alfred egg cells they were applied to each represent different virtual variations from the King Alfred.

So the reality is that each of your Tete a Tete X King Alfred hybrid seeds is actually a different cross between different virtual genetic recombinations. So each of your hybrid seeds from that cross are in reality different crosses between unknown different virtual daffodils. Your seedlings may bear some similarities between the parents and each other, but may bear some new differences as well. I see the same thing with my zinnia crosses. I started with packets of commercial zinnia varieties, but now have zinnia specimens completely unlike any commercial zinnias.

All thanks to recombinations of genes.

ZM

Hi zen_man.

I've read your answer twice now - the first time quickly because I was going somewhere. I thought the info might get processed in my brain.

The second time, just now, with a cup of coffee.

Are you saying that all the possible crosses of all of the pollen grains X all of the eggs could produce all kinds of looking flowers (eventually)?

I knew a dog once, a sort of Dachshund cross - very Dachshund like. She mated with a bitzer who looked like a working dog - he had good legs and was of a sensible conformation. The sort that could have done a decent days work on a farm, had be lived on one.

The two dogs mated and they produced a vast range of pups. The smallest one was Dachshund-like, with the fathers colours and markings, and the biggest one was taller than his father with long, lean legs.

Why am I raving on about dogs?

Well, is this what you mean about the fertilised daffodil seeds? That each egg was fertilised by a different grain of pollen and the liklihood is that each seed will grow up to become a flower with a very different look to its 'litter mates'?

Hi tete_a_tete,

" Are you saying that all the possible crosses of all of the pollen grains
X all of the eggs could produce all kinds of looking flowers
(eventually)? "

Yes, all selfs of heterozygous specimens or crosses between heterozygous specimens will involve extensive recombinations of genes. Many of those recombinations will be new and novel and not resemble either parent. Thls applies to crosses between F1 hybrids or selfs of F1 hybrids, which are referred to as an F2 generation.

Most commercial ornamentals have resulted from repeated hybrids between hybrids of hybrids, so they are highly heterozygous and the only way you can avoid extensive genetic recombination and the production of new forms is to propagate them asexually, which is how many of the plants for sale at garden centers or home centers are produced. This is one of my recombinant zinnias, which is not like any commercially available zinnia.

People frequently say that you should not save seeds from F1 hybrids, because they will not "come true" and that is the case. But if you are looking for something new, then the best way to do that is to ignore the advice against raising F2's and grow the offspring of F1 hybrids, or even hybrids between F1 hybrids. This is another of my zinnia specimens that is not available commercially.I refer to that home-bred strain of zinnias as Razzle Dazzles, because they resemble the commercial strain of Gaillardias by the same name.

ZM

Very interesting stuff and some of it is sinking in!!

So, it sounds like that in years to come, when the offspring have grown into bulbs of flowering size, I might be Very Surprised. I wonder to what degree the children of Tete a Tete and King Alfred will differ from the children of Hoop Petticoat and Graham Phillips [white trumpet].

Maybe I won't be able to tell whose children are whose, unless I look at my records. In a different garden, I held a tight rein on myself. Sipped tea at a kitchen table while taking notes and writing labels. Then went out, greeted by daffodils, and placed them carefully nearby. Under a rock; shoved in soil; whatever would hold them down.

So yes, I see why you are a Zinnia man. I'll have a beard by the time these critters are showing who they are. And I am a lady - God help me.

Hi tete_a_tete,

" I wonder to what degree the children of Tete a Tete and King Alfred
will differ from the children of Hoop Petticoat and Graham Phillips
[white trumpet].
Maybe I won't be able to tell whose children are whose, unless I look at my records. "

There could be potentially hundreds of different kinds of children from each of those crosses, because the parents are already of such complex genetic ancestry. There will be some logic to each population, but the diversity of the children will be so great that you might very well need to refer to records and labels. To really appreciate the extent of the diversity, you would need to grow a very large number of daffodil seedlings.

" In a different garden, I held a tight rein on myself. Sipped tea at a
kitchen table while taking notes and writing labels. Then went out,
greeted by daffodils, and placed them carefully nearby. Under a rock... "

You could use rocks to make more permanent labels. Get one of those vibrating engraving pens or use a rotary tool (Dremel or Proxxon or Black & Decker, etc) with a carbide bit to carve the letters into the rock. The rocks could be attractive reusable labels, and would be rather weather proof and permanent.

" I see why you are a Zinnia man. I'll have a beard by the time these
critters are showing who they are. And I am a lady - God help me. "

As they say, God helps those who help themselves. You could diversify and grow zinnias and daffodils. Daffodils, like most perennials, have a rather short blooming season. Whereas zinnias, like many annuals, have a very long blooming season, starting in June and continuing until something like a hard freeze kills them. And individual zinnia blooms are also rather long lasting, some continuing to add petals and develop for up to a month. And, who knows, you might even develop a zinnia that reminds you of a daffodil. I am not sure what this zinnia reminds me of, but it might be more daffodilish than zinnia-like.

Think about it. You might enjoy experimenting with zinnias. And you could share your pictures, comments, and questions over at the It can be fun to breed your own zinnias message threads.

You have a standing invitation.

ZM

To really appreciate the extent of the diversity, you would need to grow a very large number of daffodil seedlings.

I plan to grow all of the seedlings.

You could use rocks to make more permanent labels.

Brilliant idea.

And thank you for your invite to the ICBFTGYOZ threads. I have seen them and had a quick read, but they were all about zinnias (ha ha).

I confess, I did buy a zinnia from the farmer's market last Summer I think it was. I had Good Intentions. But it was my first ever zinnia and we parted company in the end.