Oh, wow, thanks! Do you have a layout schematic? I would love to be able to have a peninsula or island, but I don't think we could move our fridge to the other side of the dishwasher.

Al - could you sketch out the entire floor with dimensions and window/door locations? I have to believe there's a perfect solution to your space requirements, but it's not totally clear what you're starting with.

An efficient, small kitchen is preferable to a larger one in a home like this. It feels more organic. That said you get to think about the way you live as well. My guess is that expanding into the DR will not be a great idea, both cost wise and accessibility wise.

Your kitchen layout is constrained by the stairs, and it would be tempting to flip the eating area and kitchen, but that would mean all new plumbing and electrical, and you'd possibly need a soffit to vent your stovetop to the outside.

Really really consider keeping most of the major placement and investing in higher end appliances that help you work better in the space you have.

I'm working on adding the two front rooms to the layout.

eam44 - Thanks. Our dining room is our only dining space, and we use it all the time (breakfast and dinner). My initial thought was to have two dining areas, but we ended up using the old formal dining room for some of my hobby storage (spinning wheels). Our current dining room is the original den, hence the fireplace.

We live in a neighborhood with houses like these, and it's really fun to see what people have done to remodel them. Ours has the large sunroom (which we use as our main living area), which changes the flow of the house a lot.

We really did it on the fly, once we had the space open, we just played around with the extra cabinets to create the island. The only change in the rest of the kitchen was to build the boxes to hold the ovens and fridge.

Regarding the Koher sink, your most valuable food prep area is the limited space between the sink and stove. I love stages sinks, think they're beautiful, but what you're getting by choosing one may not be worth the space you would give up. Think about it, and think about what you need the most. In your kitchen, I think workspace, counter surface is of prime importance.

Here is the full floor plan. The bedroom area is rough, as I haven't focused on those measurements much. The window in the original dining room (to the left of the kitchen) is a bay window with a window seat. All the windows are low to the ground.

eam44 - I see the Stages 45 as somewhat increasing space, but I see what you mean. I'm having second thoughts after reading a thread on it earlier this week.

This circled in red is a two-sided fireplace? Do you know if this is the original footprint or is that back side an addition? Is there a door to an attached garage somewhere?

It's a one-sided fireplace. The back of the fireplace is the original brick of the house. The back side sunroom is an addition from the 1980s.

Aha! Okay :-)

Well, if you could lose the fireplace, you could elongate your kitchen and move the dining area to that spot.

The chimney also goes to a fireplace in the basement that seems pretty helpful for heat in that area (haven't been through a winter in this house, but the basement is fairly cool). Also, the main floor fireplace is a really nice original feature.

I like the fireplace. The hard part with the dining room is that it is also a hallway, the shortest distance between kitchen and bedrooms, thus the table chairs and desk chairs, when pulled out, get in the way. What is the area labeled "old" to the left of the dining room in the drawing doing currently? Is the wall behind the fridge/desk wall load bearing?

You're right, practigal. It's not as big an issue as it may seem from the drawings, because we aren't typically going from the kitchen to the bedrooms (well, it's mostly just me). The desk isn't used very often, which probably supports your idea to eliminate it, and it's easy enough to go around the other side of the table. We also have a pretty decent flow from the front entry to the main living space, the sunroom, despite the awkward hallway.

The front room labeled old is better drawn a couple of posts up. Right now, it's the entrance room and is a sort of formal/quiet seating area.

The wall between the dining room and front room is definitely load-bearing. I've seen that wall removed in similar houses, and I definitely don't want the whole thing open.

Excuse me if you've already covered this but I'm confused about what rooms are what and how they're used? Questions in photo.

No, it's confusing, and I should have labeled it!

It might make sense to start at the right, labeled as entry/sitting room. That is the sunroom, with French doors to a deck. The upper half is actually mostly open space, with a built-in dry bar at the top. The bottom half of that room is our TV area. The closet houses our washer/dryer.

The door to the basement staircase is in the dining room, across from the fireplace.

The left side: Top room houses the entry and is the formal living space, for lack of a better term. The bottom room is currently a space for some of my hobby stuff, mostly spinning wheels. It is the house's original dining room and has a bay window on the bottom wall.

Does that make sense? I think our biggest overall challenges in working with the flow of these rooms are (1) the general narrowness of the rooms, (2) the location of the French doors to the deck, which prohibit putting a dining table in that room, and (3) the window situation in the hobby room/original dining room. Number 2 could be solved without a huge amount of money by installing a sliding door and eliminating the door swing.

So, the most possible and likely expansion of the kitchen would be into the current dining room, in my mind. But I don't see that as really beneficial, because it would just spread things out more?

Sorry for the wall of text!

Al- can you add dimensions to your overall living space? I'd like to play around with your layout but I need some dimensions.

Is there a side door? Are you open to moving the kitchen and adding a powder room? Are you in a climate where a mudroom would be handy? Is your laundry in the basement?

Let me see if I can make the plan better, with a grid. It makes sense to me, but I see it every day. :)

Well if budget wasn't a consideration here's what I would do: Expand the kitchen into the hobby area which would give you a very nice L workspace with plenty of area for seating. Convert the existing narrow sitting room/living room into a mud room/powder room/hobby room/pantry. Entry pathway would flow back to the French doors. Leave dining room alone and the area where the TV is and the french door seem big enough for an adult sitting/conversation area and a family/tv/kids area. Of course budget is a consideration for most people which makes this a little harder!

Stan, the only problem is we don't really use the front door! :) Our driveway goes to the kitchen side of the house, and we end up using the basement door most often.

Here is the floor plan with dimensions (click to enlarge):

My eyesight is still pretty good and I can't be certain what those dimensions are. Can you maybe try to save a different way and repost the above image?

Also, before I get crazy with this layout... Is it correct that you plan to make your children's bedrooms larger in the future with an addition to the house? I'd like to see if they can get bigger rooms within the existing footprint.

Thanks!

Thanks for sticking with me! Let's see if this is better.

So. I cut and pasted my little heart out with no regard to budget and without truly understand how your house fits together. It's a hobby :-)

I turned your present kitchen into a mudroom/powder/laundry area. It made the most sense to me that the kitchen would be on the backside of the fireplace to be convenient to the dining room and open to the family room. Maybe your kids would work at the island instead of a desk in the dining room. I estimated it would be about 16'x13' ish. Maybe if the side door is moved to the kitchen and the laundry is moved it'll make your family room easier to arrange furniture.

Well, as long as we're playing with other people's money, lol, I'd prefer to not have a corridor kitchen.

Ahh... but where does the TV go, Funky?

:-)

Oh that new layout is way easier to read. Thank you!

Well, hey, as long as we are "play" spending Al's $, I would lose the wall in red first thing. You say you don't even use that front "room", so that would add a huge amount of useful space. Just an idea. Ha!

I am sure it is probably out of budget, so I will try and think of more practical solutions for you, but just couldn't resist....:-)

Just out of curiosity, why does that isle where the blue arrow is look so narrow? I realize the hallway could be extra wide. Does that say 6'6" on that wall I have in blue?

Rebunky, that blue line isn't so narrow in reality. It's a standard doorway that leads to the hall, but I honestly don't have great measurements of that particular piece, so I drew it on the fly.

The red wall is definitely load-bearing. I'm also not entirely sold on the house being that open. I do think having a better doorway from the front door to dining room would make sense, as the current entry is a little awkward, from the front door to a hall and an immediate right turn to the dining get room door.

The idea of moving the kitchen is interesting. I'd never really considered that. The two big structural barriers I can see are (1) that is the only part of the house NOT over a full basement (it's over our carport), and (2) the windows are essentially floor to ceiling in that room, which means we would have to figure out how to work around them or make them smaller and fix the brick exterior. Putting the kitchen in the sunroom is REALLY interesting, though, and if we decided to wait a while, could make sense. This is a house we plan to stay in, and it's a great neighborhood. We bought on the low end (low $400s), though there is a ceiling of about $600k for these ranch houses, even when they've had huge remodels and additions.

So, if we leave the load-bearing wall, or at least most of it, and don't move the kitchen to the TV/sunroom, what's plan B?

Oh, and we can't enter the house in the current kitchen, like benjes's plan assumes. It's over the walkout basement side of the house, and the house is essentially two stories there. There is an entry door at the basement level.

Oh! I was wondering where that side door was. It's downstairs? That actually might be better, If you made the present kitchen a 3/4 bath the present hobby room might some day easily be used as a small guest room.

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I have to mull on that. I'll try to grab some exterior photos to show how it's oriented. The corner lot and side driveway makes it kind of weird.

Ahh... but where does the TV go, Funky?

It's on the back of the fireplace, on a mount that can swing it out and angle it when watching it. I watch so little TV, this would be fine for me. It might not work for people who watch it more often

Thanks, all! I don't think we need another bedroom as much as we need living space. A bathroom or powder room would be nice, as would a real laundry space.

If we kept the basic location of the kitchen as-is and expanded, any thoughts on whether to go into the old dining/hobby room or the current dining/fireplace room? I have toyed with the idea of building a large island for eating and prep in the current dining room and moving the dining table to the old dining room, but I can't really figure out how (or whether) to expand my work triangle.

10'7" isn't wide enough for an island. It is wide enough for a 2-3 person peninsula. Considering the fireplace, the load bearing wall and the stairwell, I think expanding the kitchen into the present dining room would be inefficient and strange looking. IMO if you're going to keep the kitchen in the 10'7" area, the best option is just to make that existing footprint the best it can be and not expand at all.

If the laundry is moved into the present kitchen area, would that not be a vast improvement to your family room living space where the TV is? I'm guessing you'd gain about 3-4 feet in width and also be able to position furniture along that stairwell wall.

Obviously since I've never been in your house I'm just trying to visualize based on your drawing. I could be totally off base. If you've got some down time this weekend maybe you all can mock up some ideas and see what it might feel like if the kitchen is moved.

Keep these guidelines in mind:

The 31 Kitchen Design Rules

Thanks! You're confirming suspicions about the expansion. Having lots of long, narrow rooms is a really different challenge from our last house, that had lots of big, closed-off boxes!

The laundry isn't a huge problem in the TV room, as I usually use the delay function or start it in the morning when we leave. But moving the kitchen to that space might make sense.

In the 5-8 year plan, if we do add on to the bedroom area, essentially making the back wall of the sunroom extend all the way on that side of the house, we might be able to move the laundry to that area. The idea then would be to enlarge the bottom right bedroom, add a bath, and turn it into a master, then use the top right bedroom as a guest bedroom.

I haven't had time to sketch this out, but I wonder about somehow moving the entrance from the basement stairs. The idea would be to:

1. Turn the current kitchen into a mudroom/laundry.

2. Turn the current dining room back into a TV room/den (as it originally was planned).

3. Convert the sun room into the kitchen/dining area.

This would connect the spaces a lot more without really losing any space. I'm not sure this is possible, but it's interesting!

Bumping this up to have it all in one thread. I'm still mulling over ideas, but:

1. I'm ruling out moving the kitchen to the sun room/addition, because I think it's just more than we want to spend.

2. I keep pondering ways to make the current layout work for more than one cook. If my husband and I are in there together, it's awkward, and our daughter (6) is showing more interest in cooking, as well. While I don't particularly need an expansive kitchen (especially if it's going to triple my renovation costs!), I would like to brainstorm ways to add working space.

3. The big 2016 project is the basement, including replacing the drop ceiling, so that might be the time to figure out what kinds of changes are possible in the current footprint.

4. We do plan to expand the sink window, depending on cost.

With that in mind, here is what I'm wondering:

A. Should I consider moving from a cooktop/oven to a range? I would still keep the combi-steam oven, but it could go undercounter and might allow me to gain some counter space, as well as storage. The downside is that our induction cooktop is almost new, and I'm not crazy about the induction ranges available. I also really enjoy the cooktop/oven combo (though I had a range for the previous 15 years).

B. Would it be worthwhile to completely open the already wide doorway between the dining room and kitchen? I keep pondering whether there is a way to connect the two spaces more and possibly move the refrigerator and/or range?

At one point, I had envisioned a large dining island in lieu of the dining table, but I abandoned that idea; I don't know that there is enough space, especially with the fireplace.

I know there's only so much that can go in a small kitchen, and mine really does function well for one cook. But I keep feeling that there's something better that could be done with this space.

Did you actually get a bid on moving the kitchen to the back of the house? I think it's always worthwhile to get some professional estimates before you rule ideas (if you like them.)

benjesbride - We did not. At the end of the day, there are aspects of that I like, but I'm not so in love with it that I'm willing to make all the changes necessary. Because it was an addition, that part of the house is not over the basement, which is the biggest obstacle.

I will think about it some more. I really looked at the revision to your idea, not your original idea (at the back of the space, which is currently where our built-in bar is). It does merit some consideration, because our long-term plan would add plumbing to the other side of that wall for a new master BR. I think we would have to move the door to the deck, which is doable.

A lot of my hesitation is that I spent years planning my last kitchen renovation and never did it. I really don't want to plan a big renovation in this house and just never do anything because it's too much.

I don't usually recommend folks hire an architect on this forum, but it sounds like you're renovating the basement, remodeling the kitchen and you want to add on to the bedrooms. I think if you don't already have a professional helping you, you should consider hiring one. It would be terrible to proceed with remodeling the basement and then realize you have to undo something or can't do something upstairs because of those choices. Also, it's possible there's a way to efficiently rearrange spaces to avoid an addition.

Thanks! I have been strongly considering that before doing anything.

The basement work this year is relatively minor. It's already finished, and we are just replacing flooring and drop ceiling tiles, along with a few other more cosmetic fixes. We do plan to move a wall, but it's a minor change with the structure and layout.

The major addition, if we ever decide to do it, would be a 5-8 year plan. We had hoped to do the kitchen within the next year or two. That would be doable in the current footprint but not in a new one.

if you're planning to finish the basement ceiling won't that add work to the kitchen project if you move plumbing?

Not really. It's only replacing acoustic drop ceiling tiles, fluorescent lighting, and possibly the grid. The original tiles are about 30 years old and seriously need replacing. That is food for thought, though.

I do think switching to a range would help if you are keeping everything more or less the same - or do what we did - put the wall oven under a counter (agreed that induction cooktop options are WAY better which is why we did this). This would buy you enough space for someone to prep to the left of the cooktop, as well as landing space from the oven. I think it's hard to fit two ovens in a kitchen of this size.

Re: small layout pic on the Ikea planner: The easiest way to get a good sized workable picture of your layout is to take a screen shot of a selected area (I believe on Windows you need to use the "snipping tool" to choose your screen area). On the Mac, use Grab, press "capture" scroll down to "selection" and crop the desired area. Be sure you duplicate the original "tiff" screen shot and save it as a Jpeg, as tiffs will not upload on Houzz. I don't think that Windows requires this step.

I let the GW kitchen gurus give you advice on how to improve your layout. Good luck!

Ok, here's what I worked on using the existing layout. Still rough. Sink is not pictured, but it's cabinet 2 (under the widened window).

And a rough mock-up of the base cabinets only with a range. I put the combi steam oven next to the refrigerator:

So, clearly this project never totally leaves my mind! I'm finding the range layout kind of compelling. I have to buy a new oven either way, so either getting a range or doing an under-counter oven installation might work. I do enjoy having the oven separate, but it is eating up a ton of counter space....