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Those darn corners - Please help with my awkward kitchen layout!

C Gia
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago

I've been struggling with my kitchen design for many months and need some fresh insight! I recently finished a bathroom and really regret not posting here because there are some mistakes. This is a circa 1925 end-of-row home with a dining room in the middle of the house and a back patio off the kitchen. We are doing a gut renovation and can move plumbing around and change walls; however, there is a fancy inlay border in the dining room floor that I don't want to lose (I am OK stealing a couple inches/a row or two from it), and I would strongly prefer to not alter windows for budgetary reasons. We are adding insulation and framing out new exterior walls, so there is definitely a fudge factor in my measurements. For the cabinets, we are going with Ikea boxes and Barker doors - mostly slab, though I was playing around with mixing in some Shaker. We are also planning on framing out a space in the corner for either a W/D or pantry. Missing from this drawing are shelves to the right of the stove. Excuse my poor Sketchup skills!

The run by the sink is: 24", DW, 30" sink base, 47" blind corner cab. The run by the range is: 18" base + range + 15" base. This is my ideal plan, but I can't steal quite that much space from the dining room without ruining the inlay border (you can see lines of where the old wall would be in the upper right corner of the first drawing). If I shift everything back a couple inches (~4"), the sink will be off centered an awkward amount. I think I could maybe ignore it if I "weighed" the right side down with something like an integrated drainboard, but that seems like an overcomplication. This is what it would look like without cutting into the dining room floor (imagine the uppers are centered):


I could nudge the sink over a couple inches, but not enough to center it.

Option B: If I switch out the blind corner base cabinet for a standard, lazy Susan corner, it solves the problem of centering the sink, but then the range and sink seem too close together. I often cook with my SO, and that doesn't look like enough space for someone to work at the stove while someone is at the sink.

I could add a 15" bank of drawers in between the corner cabinet and the stove and reduce the size of the drawers to the right of the stove from 24" to 15", but then I'd have to steal space from the doorway. I was hoping to have a wide doorway there to give a more open feeling to the house even though I am keeping the separate dining room.

I'm also not sure how to integrate seating into the equation. I was planning on a breakfast bar at window height (~40") looking out over the patio, but that corner looks really disjointed right now. Maybe I should stick to counter height?

These compromises are so tough! Any suggestions?

Comments (8)

  • C Gia
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    This is the overall flow of the first floor (not to scale):

  • Stan B
    8 years ago

    I would not put the small section of uppers on the wall with the range. You'd have about the same amount of useful space plus it will balance nicely with the uppers above the dishwasher. Range hood would also look more balanced if there weren't cabinets on one side and not the other.

    Have you considered removing the wall between the kitchen and dining room and then putting the sink/dishwasher on the resulting peninsula and the range to the left of the window? Some people like "open concept" and others don't.

  • desertsteph
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    if you put your 'cabinets' etc into place within your room layout and mark the measurements of the rooms/walls, doors, windows etc you will probably get more replies.

    as it is, I can't make heads or tails out of those first few pics you posted. can't figure out how 'they' go into those rooms on your layout either.

    what is the slightly curved diagonal line on the left in what I think is probably the LR (and into DR too) - it's on the top side of what I thought might be stairs?

    no bathroom on the first floor?

  • mgmum
    8 years ago

    Can you switch the DW and sink? You wouldn't have a window over the sink but you would over your prep area where you are chopping everything. That bar height counter in the mock up, is that an exterior wall?

  • Buehl
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Is it important to you that the sink be under the window? Note that it's a paradigm left over from when all dishes were hand washed (no DWs).

    I would move the DW to the left at least 12", then the sink, then cabinets, then corner susan, then range wall. Don't put the DW on the other side of the sink - it puts it in the middle of the Prep Zone and that's not recommended - in fact, it's strongly discouraged.

    This arrangement allows you to prep in front of the window. Since over 70% of the work/time spent in the kitchen today is spent prepping, it's nice to put the Prep Zone in front of the window.

    Personally, I strongly dislike blind corner cabinets - I'd rather void out the corner than put in a blind corner. Blind corners are either inaccessible or, if you install a swing out, problematical if something falls off (you can't close the shelves until you retrieve the fallen item and most blind corners are too small for an adult to crawl inside to retrieve the fallen item - do you have a small child handy?)

    Corner susans, however, are useful storage options - you can easily store pots/pans or small appliances or even food on them. Everything stored in a corner susan is in front for easy retrieval (just spin the susan until the item you want is in front).

  • mama goose_gw zn6OH
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Is there already a window where you have the pass-through to the patio drawn? If you are framing and insulating, could you stretch the budget to replace the window on the patio wall? You could have a U-shape, with plenty of space for two people to work at the same time, with prep being done in front of the window on the right. The corner by the sink could be voided, or you could have a pull-out cart with drawers in the corner, as deedles did in her kitchen:

    Click to enlarge

    Also, unless your fridge opens right to left, you won't be able to open it fully against the stub wall. In the drawing it looks as if the hinge is on the right side, but that might be a quirk of the program.

    ETA, I used Stan's idea to eliminate the upper cabinet beside the range hood.

  • Lavender Lass
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Can you make the upper on the right side of the sink larger? And eliminate the upper by the range? Maybe have a tiled wall instead? Just a few ideas : )




    Or marble...

  • C Gia
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks, everyone, for your ideas so far!


    Stan Z - Nixing the upper corner cab is an interesting idea! I love the balance it would bring to that wall. I'm just not sure if I would be able to reach everything, and I'm paranoid about not having enough storage (especially if the W/D goes in the "pantry"). Do you think it would look better if I put another upper cabinet to the right of the stove (instead of open shelves) to balance that out? If I end up with the second design (corner Susan and larger 24" to the right of the stove) I was planning on putting an upper there. I've definitely gone back and forth on the peninsula thing... but we're pretty set on keeping a separate dining room.


    desertsteph - sorry about the measurements on the floorplan not showing up well! I didn't realize the image would post so small. I will simplify the drawing so it's easier to read once I get home. The curved line is a door (in my terrible drafting skills). Those are the stairs to the second floor, and the stairs to the basement are underneath it (enter through the dining room). I just included that to show that the flow of traffic is going in that direction. The kitchen originally had the opening on the other side, but I think it makes more sense to direct the traffic on that side. No bathroom on the first floor, unfortunately, but we have a street level walkout basement with another bathroom. There really isn't space for one on the first floor, and probably less than half the houses in the neighborhood have added one, so I'm not too worried about it.


    mgmum - Switching the DW and sink is a definite possibility. I thought if I kept the bar seating there I thought it would be better to have the dishwasher next to it instead of the sink (since we probably wouldn't be loading the dishwasher while someone is there, but we might be working at the sink). Maybe that's just not true, though. That is an exterior wall by the bar - it's a garden window looking out at the patio (the shape in the mockup is correct but I couldn't figure out how to make the panes see through).


    buehl - I'm open to the sink going somewhere other than by the window... it just seems like the most obvious place that people think is "correct". I've never had a dishwasher so I keep thinking in terms of my old paradigm. It's going to be an adjustment (the good kind!). Honestly the window doesn't have a great view - it looks at the brick wall of the house across the street. I'm more concerned about the dishwasher door or sink being too close to the breakfast bar if someone is sitting there and snacking or chatting with the cook. At first I was being stubborn about the blind corner, but once I realized it might not fit into the design, I began to think that a corner Susan would be better anyway. I'm kind of the same size as a small child, but that sounds like a royal pain to deal with. I think I just got dazzled by the fancy pullout at Ikea! Maybe it's better to void the corner to fix the issue of the stove and sink being too close. I'll take another look at what that would look like.


    mama goose_gw zn6OH - Yes, that window is pre-existing. It's actually not a pass through and doesn't even open except a little vent at the top! It's not the highest quality window but I don't mind it and would probably prefer to change it out later down the road to save some money. It does seem like one of those "while you're at it" things, though... it's probably more cost effective to do everything at once if I can scrape up some more. I do like your U shape design a lot, but I was reeeeeally hoping to put some seating in the kitchen since the dining room is separate. Good point about the fridge - for some reason I was thinking it would stick out enough (though it definitely doesn't the way I drew it) or we would put a filler piece there to allow it to open. I'll have to double check on that.


    lavender_lass - You just said the magic word! I blew my bathroom budget by a mile because I went on a tiling spree... but I'll probably wait to tile the kitchen and DIY it later on, so that might make it feasible. I do love those feature tile walls in a kitchen!


    Is the breakfast bar what's screwing me up here? Do I need to give up that dream?? Would people think I made a giant mistake if the sink is still under the window but not centered? I could tell that idea gave my contractor a twitch when I brought it up!